TIME TO HIT THE SUICIDE FACTORIES (Arab TV,madarassahs, mosques, etc)

[igloo]

TIME TO HIT THE SUICIDE FACTORIES

By AMIR TAHERI

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July 8, 2005 -- 'WE have fulfilled our promise and carried out our blessed military raid in Britain after our mujahideen exerted strenuous efforts over a long period of time to ensure the success of the raid." This was how an Islamist group, using the al Qaeda brandname, announced its responsibility for the terror attacks that claimed nearly 40 lives in London yesterday.

Although the exact circumstances of the raid on London remain murky, one thing is certain: This was a suicide operation aimed at killing as many civilians as possible. That the raid came as the G-8 summit opened in Scotland is certainly significant, as is the fact that it was the first day of the Arabic lunar month of Jamadul al-Akhir, Prophet Muhammad's favorite season for organizing raids against the "infidel."

What do we do about people who are prepared to court certain death in exchange for killing others? The question has been asked by the Israelis for years and by the Americans since 9/11. It is now the turn of the British to ponder it.

The first thing to do is not to get impressed by the fact that an individual who has been brainwashed out of his or her humanity is ready to die in order to kill others. The only reasonable way to treat such individuals is as a new form of weaponry. And, like all other weapons that impress when first introduced, these suicide-killers will continue to terrorize and fascinate until we find an antidote.

Cyrus the Great used camels as a weapon when he conquered Babylon. Hannibal used elephants for his raid on Rome. The Islamist terror leaders who wish to conquer the world and convert entire mankind to their brand of "true Islam" have gone one better by using the human body as a weapon.

But like all others, this weapon is designed by some people, financed by investors, manufactured somewhere and deployed by leaders who can be identified and destroyed. These human weapons are designed and shaped by a constant flow of anti-Western propaganda from Arab satellite TV, the so-called Islamic associations and countless madarassahs (Islamic schools) -RD>and mosques throughout the world, including in London itself.

Go to any mosque in the West (let alone in the Islamic countries) on any Friday and you are sure to hear a litany of woes about how the "cross-worshippers" have allied themselves with the "plotting Jews" in order to destroy Islam, which, as God's final message, is the only true faith.

You will hear how the West is mired in corruption, its womenfolk exposing their midriff in public and its governments sanctioning gay and lesbian marriages. You will also hear how "the Crusaders" have invaded Muslim lands and are trying to impose their democratic system on Afghanistan and Iraq.

Such a discourse might leave most Muslims indifferent or even annoyed. But it is enough for it to seduce even 1 percent of the world's Muslims — that is to say a cool 13 million people — for everyone to be in trouble.

The deadly propaganda is reinforced by other means. The future terrorist is comforted by the fact that his or her fellow Muslims in the West use their bodies as an advertising space for their beliefs. In many Western cities, this comes in the form of al Qaeda-style beards and long shirts (qamis) for men and jet-black hijab (headgear) for women. (Not long ago, I saw a baby girl in a carriage wearing that prop of visual terrorism.)

The would-be suicide terrorist is also likely to be impressed by the self-styled Islamic theologians coolly debating the issue of whom to kill and how. Any viewer of Al-Jazeera, the satellite channel owned by the emir of Qatar, has seen its chief Islamist guru Yussuf al-Qaradawi insist that Islam allows the murder of unborn Israeli babies because they may grow up and join the army. In a recent visit to Mecca, I witnessed another self-styled guru, Sheik Safar al-Hawali, informing visitors to his home that it was "licit" to kill innocent Muslim women and children in Iraq if that led to "the defeat of the Crusaders and their apostate Muslim allies."

The would-be suicide-killer is also comforted by the sense of guilt manifested by many in the West. He has seen do-gooders from the United States in the streets of Arab Jerusalem apologizing to astounded Muslim passersby for "the Crusades" — which happened long before the United States came into being.

He may also note that he is treated with something bordering on deference by much of the Western media, which has banned the use of the word "terrorist" altogether, using, instead, such terms as "militants" or " resistance fighters."

And then there was the successful ghazva (raid) on Madrid last year, when the Islamists succeeded in changing the government of a major Western democracy with a single attack.

If the suicide-terrorists were weapons made of metal, the victims would certainly try to bomb places where they were made. But because these weapons are of human flesh, the assumption is that they can't be traced back to any specific locality. It is as if we were dealing with ethereal beings existing beyond the limits of reality.

The London attack was not the work only of the few individuals who carried it out. It was the bitter fruit of a faith that has been hijacked by a minority of extremists while the majority of its adepts watch with a mixture of awe and ill-concealed pride. The real fight against this enemy of humanity will start only when the so-called "silent majority" in Islam speaks out against these murderers and those who brainwash, train, finance and deploy them.

Amir Taheri, an Iranian author and journalist, is a member of Benador Associates.

[raver_mania]

interesting read.

[igloo]

Originally Posted by raver_mania

interesting read.

The bottom line, is that if this is not addressed, or "admitted" , or approached, this "war" can never be one.......sooner or later, everyone needs to pretending these realities do not exist

[raver_mania]

A few points I do have a problem with (unless I misunderstood):

1) I think its completely unfair to lump Pakistan along with Iran, etc. Or even Saudi Arabia. Pakistan, and to a lesser extent Saudi, have been indispensable in the war against terror. How many top ranking Al Queda members were captured in Pakistan?

2) I don't think the "silent majority" of Muslims feel pride in what the terrorists are doing, or show indirect support.

3) Why is the author drawing a link between growing a beard and wearing traditional clothes to being a terrorist? That is completely off base.

[raver_mania]

Originally Posted by igloo

The bottom line, is that if this is not addressed, or "admitted" , or approached, this "war" can never be one.......sooner or later, everyone needs to pretending these realities do not exist

Agreed. But you can't ONLY blame madrassas, mosques, etc. On the other hand, you also have certain atrocities that are going on in Iraq and Afghanistan that are equally adding fuel to the fire.

[igloo]

Originally Posted by raver_mania

A few points I do have a problem with (unless I misunderstood):

1) I think its completely unfair to lump Pakistan along with Iran, etc. Or even Saudi Arabia. Pakistan, and to a lesser extent Saudi, have been indispensable in the war against terror. How many top ranking Al Queda members were captured in Pakistan?

2) I don't think the "silent majority" of Muslims feel pride in what the terrorists are doing, or show indirect support.

3) Why is the author drawing a link between growing a beard and wearing traditional clothes to being a terrorist? That is completely off base.

My comments:

(1) I somewhat agree with you on Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. They do help, much more so than the press ever reports. But they could do more, a lot more. The Saudi's need to cut off funding for jihadists and madrasses, and need to implement reforms. The Saudi's do just enough so we can't "yell" at them, but not enough to be truly effective. Pakistan is dangerous, as Musharaf has a wicked balancing act he must attend to. With that said, there are military, terrorism, and intelligence experts who believe the Pakistan knows exactly where Bin Laden is, and where other top leaders are, but realize that the capture of those could destabilize Pakistan.

And since when are you defending the Saudi's?

(2) I would like the "silent majority" to PROVE they do not take pride is what is going on....

(3) Can't help you on that one...

[raver_mania]

Originally Posted by igloo

My comments:

(1) I somewhat agree with you on Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. They do help, much more so than the press ever reports. But they could do more, a lot more. The Saudi's need to cut off funding for jihadists and madrasses, and need to implement reforms. The Saudi's do just enough so we can't "yell" at them, but not enough to be truly effective. Pakistan is dangerous, as Musharaf has a wicked balancing act he must attend to. With that said, there are military, terrorism, and intelligence experts who believe the Pakistan knows exactly where Bin Laden is, and where other top leaders are, but realize that the capture of those could destabilize Pakistan.

And since when are you defending the Saudi's?

(2) I would like the "silent majority" to PROVE they do not take pride is what is going on....

(3) Can't help you on that one...

haha - not really defending the Saudis but after reading a bit about them, it seems that the royal family's indirect support of terror was more from being sacred shitless of the radicals than actually belief in the cause. Of course, I'msure there are some in the royal family who might actually believe the jihadists (damn family is HUGE) but nothing like Iran's leaders.
Reform is necessary though.

To think - this is a monster that Saudi Arabia, USA, and Pakistan created in the 80's - they thought they could control it but now its completely turned on its owners.

[igloo]

Originally Posted by raver_mania

Agreed. But you can't ONLY blame madrassas, mosques, etc. On the other hand, you also have certain atrocities that are going on in Iraq and Afghanistan that are equally adding fuel to the fire.

Actually you can......in so many ways.

Atrocities in Iraq and Afghanistan......atrocities?

[raver_mania]

Originally Posted by igloo

Actually you can......in so many ways.

Atrocities in Iraq and Afghanistan......atrocities?

Thats way too simple an approach to take at this point. There are certain insurgent groups in Iraq that have been formed solely due to the occupation. Al Sadr, for example.

You also have to remember that the foundation of Al Queda and the Taliban goes way back to the days of the Soviet invasion when the US along with Saudi Arabia and Pakistan courted Islamic fundamentalism as a way to fight the Soviets. And as a way of exerting influence in soviet controlled central asian countries with majority muslim populations.

Yeah, by atrocities, I mean prison abuse, murder of innocents in jails, etc. There is no excuse for what those particular soldiers do ( you of course do realize that I'm only talking about those particular ones, and not all), and unfortunately, the bad gets more emphasized than the good. In fact, thats human nature all over the world...nothing ever gets noticed unless something bad happens, or something goes wrong.
When a wedding gets strafed by an F-15, nobody is ever going to say "oh, that was just a mistake, we'll just forget about it". Can you imagine if something like that happened here?? There would be a huge outcry and the commander would be court-martialed.

Side note: I don't think closing down madrasses is a correct approach to take. Most of them are just plain religious schools, just as there are super orthodox Jewish schools in Israel - the message of hate is the only thing that needs to be taken out.

[igloo]

Originally Posted by raver_mania

haha - not really defending the Saudis but after reading a bit about them, it seems that the royal family's indirect support of terror was more from being sacred shitless of the radicals than actually belief in the cause. Of course, I'msure there are some in the royal family who might actually believe the jihadists (damn family is HUGE) but nothing like Iran's leaders.
Reform is necessary though.

To think - this is a monster that Saudi Arabia, USA, and Pakistan created in the 80's - they thought they could control it but now its completely turned on its owners.

u reading Ghost Wars?........pick up a couple of Bernard Lewis books too.....

The "partnership" between the Al Saud tribe and the Wahhibi's started waaaaaayy before the Soviet invasion.............

[igloo]

Originally Posted by raver_mania

Thats way too simple an approach to take at this point. There are certain insurgent groups in Iraq that have been formed solely due to the occupation. Al Sadr, for example.

You also have to remember that the foundation of Al Queda and the Taliban goes way back to the days of the Soviet invasion when the US along with Saudi Arabia and Pakistan courted Islamic fundamentalism as a way to fight the Soviets. And as a way of exerting influence in soviet controlled central asian countries with majority muslim populations.

Yeah, by atrocities, I mean prison abuse, murder of innocents in jails, etc. There is no excuse for what those particular soldiers do ( you of course do realize that I'm only talking about those particular ones, and not all), and unfortunately, the bad gets more emphasized than the good. In fact, thats human nature all over the world...nothing ever gets noticed unless something bad happens, or something goes wrong.
When a wedding gets strafed by an F-15, nobody is ever going to say "oh, that was just a mistake, we'll just forget about it". Can you imagine if something like that happened here?? There would be a huge outcry and the commander would be court-martialed.

Side note: I don't think closing down madrasses is a correct approach to take. Most of them are just plain religious schools, just as there are super orthodox Jewish schools in Israel - the message of hate is the only thing that needs to be taken out.

I just think atrocities is the wrong of choice of words.....not denying the stuff that did happen, and it did add fuel to the (and how the media covered it added drums of fuel).....

I think the religious schools that teach hate, violence, and intolerance should be shut down....there are thousands of them that do not teach Islam, but extreme interpetations and pervsion if Islam, not religion............and I don't recall those super Orthodox Jewish schools in Israel having tunred out suicide bombers by the droves......nor do I believe that is the ONLY educational outlet as well, as these radical Islamic schools are.......

In any case, the message of hate needs to be taken out....Saudi's stop funding them and cracking down on the radical ones.....because in essense, they have become military targets

[raver_mania]

Originally Posted by igloo

u reading Ghost Wars?........pick up a couple of Bernard Lewis books too.....

The "partnership" between the Al Saud tribe and the Wahhibi's started waaaaaayy before the Soviet invasion.............

hehe - obvious huh?
Ever read "America's secret war?" Heard from a friend that was a really good book.
Actually I have one - the Fall of Islam or something like that.

[igloo]

Originally Posted by raver_mania

hehe - obvious huh?
Ever read "America's secret war?" Heard from a friend that was a really good book.

No, who wrote that one....I just read WHat Went Wrong by Bernard Lewis, and Not a Good Day to Die by Sean Naylor and Shadow War by Richard miniter........check out Taliban by Ahmed Rashid...read that one a while back, but it is a good one....

[bigpoppanils]

a drama free conversation!

[siceone]

Originally Posted by raver_mania

A few points I do have a problem with (unless I misunderstood):

1) I think its completely unfair to lump Pakistan along with Iran, etc. Or even Saudi Arabia. Pakistan, and to a lesser extent Saudi, have been indispensable in the war against terror. How many top ranking Al Queda members were captured in Pakistan?

2) I don't think the "silent majority" of Muslims feel pride in what the terrorists are doing, or show indirect support.

3) Why is the author drawing a link between growing a beard and wearing traditional clothes to being a terrorist? That is completely off base.

When the fuck did you get all mellow?