FINALLY, someone has said it

[cintron]

y'know. I agree and disagree with that article.

I agree with the sentiment behind it - the need to see a unified "america" what with all the shit going on in the world.

I agree with Hoke, the man of Reason who's showing us that understanding and living with each other isn't necessarily the easiest choice, but certainly is the right one.

However i will say this:

In America, we never refer to each other as "americans". Politicians may, but we don't. to us, we're spanish or greek, chinese, french, malaysian, indian, arabian, british, etc...

but we never have a strong sense of nationality while we're actually IN America, UNLESS it's either July 4th, OR something catastrophic happens that pulls us together.

When you travel outside of the US, you will realize that you are labeled as an "American", wherever you go. Regardless of your heritage. You are an American and you REPRESENT your country.

Some cultures like you, some cultures HATE you simply because you are an American. to them, American comes before "spaniard" or before "italian" or "arab" or anything else. It's like a woman who marries and keeps her last name, so that it has a prefix and a suffix. You will always carry "American" around your neck regardless of who you are, or where you go.

The same goes while you're IN country, though it's easier for people to classify you under what heritage you are.

Some americans are nice. Some are assholes. Some are out to help the country and build it up, some want to tear the fucking thing down and stomp all over it.

But we're all americans whether we like it or not. If you live in this country and you go to work here everyday, if you've paid taxes or a speeding ticket, bought a flag for july 4th or enjoyed a day at the beach, you're an American. Ain't nothing gonna change that. And ALL americans are entitled to bitch, whine and moan about everything and anything as long as they're here. That's one of the freedoms we have.

Do i find it unfortunate that some Americans partake in behavior that isn't in the best interests of this country? Yes.

Was I furious to see Palestinians and other Arabs dancing in the streets in NEW YORK CITY, upon hearing about the WTC and the pentagon attacks? yes I was. But they're my fellow americans, much as I might want to believe otherwise.

But then again, America gives you that freedom - the freedom to be an insensitive prick asshole if you wish.

But hey, they're still Americans. Deal with it.

Besides, i have a freedom of my own - the Freedom to kick the living shit out of anyone i wish, as long as i can get away with it.

Just deal with it - the country belongs to teh PEOPLE, not just to some group of flag-waving enthusiasts who think they own the place because they love it the most.

[LavenderMenace]

Originally posted by barvybe

the word's "under god" were added to the pledge in the 50's during the Eisenhauer administration as a reaction to "goddless communism".

the original pledge rightly and correctly had nothing to do with religion, but instead with our right to have our own nation and protect people's individual freedoms.

THANK YOU!

you can be any religion you want in this country, but "god" forbid youre an atheist.

seperation of church and state. end of discussion. you cant pick and choose when you want to play by the rules and when you want to ignore them.

[hotcheme]

Originally posted by cintron

y'know. I agree and disagree with that article.

I agree with the sentiment behind it - the need to see a unified "america" what with all the shit going on in the world.

I agree with Hoke, the man of Reason who's showing us that understanding and living with each other isn't necessarily the easiest choice, but certainly is the right one.

However i will say this:

In America, we never refer to each other as "americans". Politicians may, but we don't. to us, we're spanish or greek, chinese, french, malaysian, indian, arabian, british, etc...

but we never have a strong sense of nationality while we're actually IN America, UNLESS it's either July 4th, OR something catastrophic happens that pulls us together.

When you travel outside of the US, you will realize that you are labeled as an "American", wherever you go. Regardless of your heritage. You are an American and you REPRESENT your country.

Some cultures like you, some cultures HATE you simply because you are an American. to them, American comes before "spaniard" or before "italian" or "arab" or anything else. It's like a woman who marries and keeps her last name, so that it has a prefix and a suffix. You will always carry "American" around your neck regardless of who you are, or where you go.

The same goes while you're IN country, though it's easier for people to classify you under what heritage you are.

Some americans are nice. Some are assholes. Some are out to help the country and build it up, some want to tear the fucking thing down and stomp all over it.

But we're all americans whether we like it or not. If you live in this country and you go to work here everyday, if you've paid taxes or a speeding ticket, bought a flag for july 4th or enjoyed a day at the beach, you're an American. Ain't nothing gonna change that. And ALL americans are entitled to bitch, whine and moan about everything and anything as long as they're here. That's one of the freedoms we have.

Do i find it unfortunate that some Americans partake in behavior that isn't in the best interests of this country? Yes.

Was I furious to see Palestinians and other Arabs dancing in the streets in NEW YORK CITY, upon hearing about the WTC and the pentagon attacks? yes I was. But they're my fellow americans, much as I might want to believe otherwise.

But then again, America gives you that freedom - the freedom to be an insensitive prick asshole if you wish.

But hey, they're still Americans. Deal with it.

Besides, i have a freedom of my own - the Freedom to kick the living shit out of anyone i wish, as long as i can get away with it.

Just deal with it - the country belongs to teh PEOPLE, not just to some group of flag-waving enthusiasts who think they own the place because they love it the most.

:

[phuturephunk]

. . . There is only one point in that article that I agree with: . . . All people who want to live in this country should learn to speak English and speak it well . . It's only through that and education that we can help ameliorate some of the tension between races and class in our society . . .

. . Communication IS key . . . without it, we will forever be divided as a nation . .

[perns2002]

Originally posted by hoke

I agree... many (if not all, I don't know) European countries require their students to learn at least one foreign language. In Switzerland, everybody learns German (or French, depending on the region), and many make the effort to learn English, too.

This is also true in America, children are required to have to years of a foreign language in order gradute. I know two years is hardly enough to learn a language but we do have to do it also.

[tastyt]

Originally posted by cintron

y'know. I agree and disagree with that article.

I agree with the sentiment behind it - the need to see a unified "america" what with all the shit going on in the world.

I agree with Hoke, the man of Reason who's showing us that understanding and living with each other isn't necessarily the easiest choice, but certainly is the right one.

However i will say this:

In America, we never refer to each other as "americans". Politicians may, but we don't. to us, we're spanish or greek, chinese, french, malaysian, indian, arabian, british, etc...

but we never have a strong sense of nationality while we're actually IN America, UNLESS it's either July 4th, OR something catastrophic happens that pulls us together.

When you travel outside of the US, you will realize that you are labeled as an "American", wherever you go. Regardless of your heritage. You are an American and you REPRESENT your country.

Some cultures like you, some cultures HATE you simply because you are an American. to them, American comes before "spaniard" or before "italian" or "arab" or anything else. It's like a woman who marries and keeps her last name, so that it has a prefix and a suffix. You will always carry "American" around your neck regardless of who you are, or where you go.

The same goes while you're IN country, though it's easier for people to classify you under what heritage you are.

Some americans are nice. Some are assholes. Some are out to help the country and build it up, some want to tear the fucking thing down and stomp all over it.

But we're all americans whether we like it or not. If you live in this country and you go to work here everyday, if you've paid taxes or a speeding ticket, bought a flag for july 4th or enjoyed a day at the beach, you're an American. Ain't nothing gonna change that. And ALL americans are entitled to bitch, whine and moan about everything and anything as long as they're here. That's one of the freedoms we have.

Do i find it unfortunate that some Americans partake in behavior that isn't in the best interests of this country? Yes.

Was I furious to see Palestinians and other Arabs dancing in the streets in NEW YORK CITY, upon hearing about the WTC and the pentagon attacks? yes I was. But they're my fellow americans, much as I might want to believe otherwise.

But then again, America gives you that freedom - the freedom to be an insensitive prick asshole if you wish.

But hey, they're still Americans. Deal with it.

Besides, i have a freedom of my own - the Freedom to kick the living shit out of anyone i wish, as long as i can get away with it.

Just deal with it - the country belongs to teh PEOPLE, not just to some group of flag-waving enthusiasts who think they own the place because they love it the most.

Very well put.

[perns2002]

I also know from expereince, some people want to learn the language. They try really hard and study and are even in higher English classes and so on. Others and this includes many races do not want to learn because it is easier, their lazy and they see that they dont have to since we make it so easy for them. My parents are immagrants who both went to night school and learned the language................. English is my secong language, and when I was in school (elementary) I had no choice.

[barvybe]

i agree...everyone should learn english...especially all kids. if we can't communicate well internally then we are in trouble.

as for what people consider themselves: i consider myself an american. my parents and grandparents do too. grandparents came here right around 1900 from lots of places. they consider themselves americans though. i never was told and taught that i was russian or any of the other parts of my background.

i think that immigrants since about 1930 or so have had a somewhat different attitude. to some extent it depends on why you left where you were. my grandparents, being jewish, were highly persecuted. they came here not because of money and that they could do better, but because in many ways they didn't feel a part of the countries they were in. people who came here for this sort of reason have very strong patriotism IMO.

peace

[hoke]

Originally posted by perns2002

This is also true in America, children are required to have to years of a foreign language in order gradute. I know two years is hardly enough to learn a language but we do have to do it also.

I think the difference is, in Europe, the utility of a second language is fairly obvious. Here, people are more inclined to insist that Spanish-speakers learn English, than admit that learning Spanish would be a useful thing.

[bigpoppanils]

my problem with the "english as a national language" thingie: How can we make this demand upon everyone in this nation when we keep cutting ESL program funding?

most schools (both HS and college) have foregin language requirements...but from my expereince the foreign language programs are mostly learning vocabulary without applying them to real world situations. the problem is there isnt a national emphasis on interacting with other nations like there is in europe, so why bother putting much effort into those programs?

[barvybe]

spanish is not our national language.

it is useful in the US cause we have a substantial spanish speaking population

english is useful in general cause it has become the language of commerce, arts and banking (replacing french) and is the defacto language of the internet. this just happens to be the way the world is right now

in europe, people learn other languages because they USE them regularly. if we lived in an area where every 300 miles you ran into a different national language we would learn and use more languages as well.

look at the map...figure it out.

[perns2002]

Originally posted by hoke

I think the difference is, in Europe, the utility of a second language is fairly obvious. Here, people are more inclined to insist that Spanish-speakers learn English, than admit that learning Spanish would be a useful thing.

Explain to me how Spanish is a useful thing, I am not being mean here. I want to understand how I will benefit from learning spanish other than learning another language.......Seriously I am not being rude I just wanna know.

[howardstone]

AMERICA . . . home of the Clubbers with attitude. Everyone just chill out . .. take some e or something.

Stone.

[JonStephen]

Originally posted by barvybe

spanish is not our national language.

it is useful in the US cause we have a substantial spanish speaking population

english is useful in general cause it has become the language of commerce, arts and banking (replacing french) and is the defacto language of the internet. this just happens to be the way the world is right now

in europe, people learn other languages because they USE them regularly. if we lived in an area where every 300 miles you ran into a different national language we would learn and use more languages as well.

look at the map...figure it out.

Couldn't agree more......

I also agree with Nils that there just isn't an emphasis on applying the language that you are learning. I picked up all the Greek I know (which isn't much at all) but I took 5 years of French and yet I still don't know how to say 'Can I get a Hot-Dog'

[perns2002]

Originally posted by barvybe

spanish is not our national language.

it is useful in the US cause we have a substantial spanish speaking population

english is useful in general cause it has become the language of commerce, arts and banking (replacing french) and is the defacto language of the internet. this just happens to be the way the world is right now

in europe, people learn other languages because they USE them regularly. if we lived in an area where every 300 miles you ran into a different national language we would learn and use more languages as well.

look at the map...figure it out.

WERD..........................

[bigpoppanils]

Originally posted by djjonstephen

but I took 5 years of French and yet I still don't know how to say 'Can I get a Hot-Dog'

exactly

after 4 years of "intensive-honors level" Russian i dont remember anything

[hoke]

Originally posted by perns2002

Explain to me how Spanish is a useful thing, I am not being mean here. I want to understand how I will benefit from learning spanish other than learning another language.......Seriously I am not being rude I just wanna know.

You've obviously never lived in California.

bigpoppanils has it right: either we need to start taking Spanish seriously as a major U.S. language, or we need to get serious about ESL in our schools. Currently, we're doing neither, and as people have said, it harms our ability to communicate with each other.

But this Spanish/English discussion is really a side track to my real concern, which is that some people want to imagine a mold that defines "American", and discard everything that doesn't fit that mold -- ideologies, languages, etc... and I feel that goes directly against the spirit of what "American" means to me.

[perns2002]

all the esl classes in my school the kids goofed off and never wanted to learn. They didnt even try..................... it was so sad.

[perns2002]

all the esl classes in my school the kids goofed off and never wanted to learn. They didnt even try..................... it was so sad.

[bigpoppanils]

Originally posted by perns2002

all the esl classes in my school the kids goofed off and never wanted to learn. They didnt even try..................... it was so sad.

thats most students, not just esl

[barvybe]

hoke, i agree

EXCEPT: when you come here you do need to accept a few things as being intrinsically american:

we are a democracy

you can practice any religion you want (or not practice at all)

the bill of rights and amendments

trial by a jury of your peers

english is the national language

if you don't vote you don't have the right to complain

these (and probably some others i left out) are what america IS all about. its what the original settlers and our forefathers came here for. its what the declaration of independence and the constitution are all about. and these are the reasons that most people have come here to live. to say that we have no culture or standard societal mores is simply not true.

manifest destiny

the spirit of exploration

independent action

these are some of the principals that got the US to where it is, but we tend to forget about them as our country becomes more static.

in terms of everything else we are pretty much a melting pot - do what you want. and this is also an American concept and the one that is most under attack as we take a look at the cost of our freedoms after WTC.

(sorry for the lecture)

[hoke]

Originally posted by perns2002

all the esl classes in my school the kids goofed off and never wanted to learn. They didnt even try..................... it was so sad.

Consider the age group. That's why immersion works better, or preferably, a combination of immersion and language courses.

[perns2002]

Originally posted by bigpoppanils

thats most students, not just esl

I am talking about walking by the clalsses and them being out of control but whatever.

Don't get me wrong. I had some students in my College Prep/Honors English clalsses who really applyed themselves and learned the language and did better than american speaking students. Just like if I were to go to school in another country do u think, that country would learn my language cuz alot of my decent is there. Ohh hell no. I would have to learn there language. I am too busy and my thoughts are jumping like crazy over here.

[Codica3]

[hoke]

Originally posted by barvybe

to say that we have no culture or standard societal mores is simply not true.

manifest destiny

the spirit of exploration

independent action

these are some of the principals that got the US to where it is, but we tend to forget about them as our country becomes more static.

True... and those values are completely independent of ethnicity, language, etc... in fact, they're completely independent of what a person thinks of the U.S., too.

You're absolutely right that the melting pot is under fire since September 11. It scares me to see how many people feel that's justified.