Report From GAZA...

[tribal]

And what about the Jenin Refugee Camp? The Palestians shouldn't even be refugees because they were kicked out of their rightful homes...

kicked out??? cmon, if you are going to start twisting history, at least know your shit. there was a large jewish population living in this entire area ever since the diaspora of 2000 years ago. in 1947, with large influx of jews to trans jordan after the holocaust, the UN decided to have 2 states, one for palestinians, one for jews. the palestinians rejected this compromise, and egypt, jordan, syria attacked israel,on the very day of its founding. can you blame the israelis for defending their lives? the arabs consequently lost more territories after the 67 and 73 wars. golan heights is just one example.

if you are going to go back to this theory of who got 'kicked out', then we might as well go back 2000 years, and see who got kicked out back then. the point is that both groups need a homeland, and its stupid to argue who deserves the land more or who got kicked out when.

[sassa]

there was a small jewish population in palestine before the first immigration wave started, they didn't even amount to 1% of the population while there was almost a million Arabs in that territory. just so you know, tribal. and i got this from my history book in israel, if you're thinking i got this from an unreliable non-jewish source.

no one certainly deserves the land more than another, but the israelis are certainly trying to make that point come across in their activities.... sharon has been clear in the past about kicking palestinians out of the west bank so they can all go to the east bank, the supposed "real palestine state".

whether you'd like to see it or not, israel is practicing brutal ways to get their point across, and it's not a surprise that the rest of the world except the united states condemns israel for it.

what a shame.

[tribal]

sassa, im not saying the israelis arent brutal or unfair to palestinians. they are. thats obvious. BUT, the entire world expects israel to treat palestinians as their rightful neighbors, when israelis get blown up daily. the middle east is a bad neighbor hood, if you seem to be too nice, you are too weak and you will be attacked. the israelis learned this lesson in blood. in 67, the arabs falsely believed that israel's defenses were down and weak, and allied to destroy it. 3 times they tried and failed. how do you expect the israelis to be nice to palestinians when the palestinians are teaching nazi propaganda in their schools, preaching for the murder of jews, for the destruction of israel. frankly i dont blame the israelis for protecting themselves.

the entire fucking world is coming down on israel about what they do to the poor palestinains. its funny but saddam hussein gassed the kurds in north iraq, yet where was the worldwide UN condemnation of that? or when he fired SCUDS into tel aviv. the UN and the world didnt give two shits. why should israel give a shit about what the UN or the world thinks they should be doing?

[djxeno]

Originally posted by tribal

how do you expect the israelis to be nice to palestinians when the palestinians are teaching nazi propaganda in their schools, preaching for the murder of jews, for the destruction of israel. frankly i dont blame the israelis for protecting themselves.

You are right that propaganda is being spread by Arabs. Over there, it is a shame that the hatred of Jews is spreading between Arabs. But the same thing can be said on the Jewish side. It's funny how the Israelis and the U.S. media automatically label any Palestinian gunman who has enough courage to fight with one machine again against an Israeli tank, a "terrorist." However, you must realize where this hatred of Jews sprawls from. There used to be a state of Palestine, now it's nothing but an "Authority." Thus thousands of people were forced to live in refugee camps, because of what? And on top of that the IDF Forces love to destroy the camps. Also, Palestinians can't even go out and buy food in thier "own country." Thus, hate emerges. In 1947, what did the Palestinians do to have them forced out of their homes?

You yourself admitted that the Israelis are brutal and unfair to the Palestinians. That's why we have suicide bombers. While this is not the right way to fight back, the Palestinians have lost so much hope and are so psychologically broken that they feel like they can sacrifice their own people for thier cause. For them, it is thier only way to fight back since they down have the world's second strongest military like Israel does and they don't receive $3 billlion in aid per year like Israel.

the entire fucking world is coming down on israel about what they do to the poor palestinains. its funny but saddam hussein gassed the kurds in north iraq, yet where was the worldwide UN condemnation of that? or when he fired SCUDS into tel aviv. the UN and the world didnt give two shits. why should israel give a shit about what the UN or the world thinks they should be doing?

Yes....the poor Palestinians. They were kicked out of thier rightful homes before the coming of suicide bombers. And there should have been a worldwide UN condemnation when Saddam gassed the Kurds and it's sad that there wasn't. But this, and the Tel Aviv scuds were only 2 incidents, where as the Palestinians have been under occupation for over 50 years, without a homeland which was just taken away from them for no reason. Thus the U.N. and the world have to do something for both sides.

Me personally, I'm not trying to be ignorant, just asking a question that maybe you can answer for me. How come Jews look at themselves as a race? Judaism is a religion isn't it, not a race of people like Italians or Canadians.

Peace,

-XeNo-

[tribal]

There used to be a state of Palestine, now it's nothing but an "Authority." Thus thousands of people were forced to live in refugee camps, because of what? And on top of that the IDF Forces love to destroy the camps.

buddy , you should take a mid east history course before coming to any conclusions or opinions.

#1 for starters, there was no Palestine, not a state, not a nation, not an ethnic group. Palestinians are ethnically Jordanian, Palestine was a name given to Israel by the Romans (which did exist 2000 years ago, ruled by famous kngs like David), the romans conquered judea and samaria, forced the jews into exile, hence, the Diaspora. ever hear of Masada? a famous fortress in Israel? do a little google search, see what you find. the palestinians never had a state or a country, but they did live in the area when the jewish immigration to israel began in '47 and earlier.

#2 the palestinians arent poor innocent souls who got their land taken away for no reason. cmon, you should be smarter than that. dont you know that nothing is black or white in this world? who started every single war of this conflct? do some research. who rejected the UN compromise of 2 states, one for arabs and one for jews? and guess what, who collaborated with the nazi forces during ww2? the mufti of jerusalem, why? because there is a tremendous level of anti semitism that runs in arab mentality. its true, im half jewish, and have many arab friends, and i can tell you from personal experience that there is a huge level of anti semitism and racism, historically.

#3 ill ask you a question. why after camp david and Oslo, when negotiations were promising, and people's liives were getting better, why did the palestinians all of a sudden launch their antifada? they did not like the results of the clinton meeting, so they turn to bloodshed to get what they want. well welcome to the middle east. there are no nice guys here. if you hurt me today, you better kill me, or ill kill you tomorrow. thats the way life is. you are very naiive in your view of the palestinians and the israelis

[djxeno]

Originally posted by tribal

#2 the palestinians arent poor innocent souls who got their land taken away for no reason. cmon, you should be smarter than that. dont you know that nothing is black or white in this world? who started every single war of this conflct? do some research. who rejected the UN compromise of 2 states, one for arabs and one for jews? and guess what, who collaborated with the nazi forces during ww2? the mufti of jerusalem, why? because there is a tremendous level of anti semitism that runs in arab mentality. its true, im half jewish, and have many arab friends, and i can tell you from personal experience that there is a huge level of anti semitism and racism, historically.

#3 ill ask you a question. why after camp david and Oslo, when negotiations were promising, and people's liives were getting better, why did the palestinians all of a sudden launch their antifada? they did not like the results of the clinton meeting, so they turn to bloodshed to get what they want. well welcome to the middle east. there are no nice guys here. if you hurt me today, you better kill me, or ill kill you tomorrow. thats the way life is. you are very naiive in your view of the palestinians and the israelis

The conflict started cuz the Palestinians were there first, then thousands of Jews came from everywhere. That started the war. As far as who rejected the U.N. compromise, that was the United States, they rejected it many times.

As far as your question number 3, Arafat did reject the compromise, and I dont know exactly why, but I remember hearing that it gave the Palestinians an absurd amount of land.

Okay, since you are half jewish I wanna take some time to ask you some questions cuz often I find many contradictions in Judaism, and I wanna know what you believe. If you have any questions about Islam, feel free to ask me.

1) Do you really think that Israel is your promised land, from God?

If that is so, then why are their Jews against Israel? and these aren't radical fundamental Jews either. You can check them out at: http://jewsagainsttheoccupation.org

2) Also, you guys don't beleive that Jesus was the messiah right, so you believe he is still coming?

3) I'll ask again. Jews look at themselves as a race of people? If that is so, how is it possibe to convert to Judaism?

Again, not trying to be ignorant, just trying to learn.

Peace,

-XeNo-

[tribal]

ok for the first part

the arab parties, including the palestinians rejected the UN resolution, i think it was #147, that called for a peaceful establishment of 2 states, 1 jewish, 1 palestinian, both countries carved out of what was then a Trans Jordan entity, governed by pre WW2 turkish empire. check your history books. the arabs started the '48 war, with Syria, Egypt and Jordan launching triple fronts on the embryonic Israel.

ask yourself why Israel is in the west bank and gaza right now. again, the '67 and '73 war, both started by arab powers, most notably by Nasser who along with syria and jordan attacked Israel in '67, with all 3 nations losing badly to IDF. during the 67 war, israel made significant military conquests from all 3 arab nations, which included the Golan heights from Syria, Judea and Samaria from Jordan, and the Sinai peninsula from Egypt.

after Nasser's death in 1970, egypt again attacked Israel with northern syrian tank columns, and while egypt broke through the Sinai israeli defense line, known as the Bar Lev line, israel again pushed them back, destroying their military machine. it was only then that Egypt signed a peace treaty with israel, realizing that they could not defeat them militarily. jordan followed years later.

israel is in those territories today, ONLY because the arab nations waged war 3 times in the last 50 years, and only because they were incompetent with their military. israel is surrounded by hostile nations and groups, and this is no exaggeration. even after IDF withdrew from S Lebanon, completely leaving that country's border, the Hizbulla still continues to attack Israeli civilian centers. the agenda on the Hamas list is to completely destroy israel and its people, and Iraq and Syria are stockpiling chemical warheads, and tank brigades, for the next eventual conflict with israel.

now for the second part

the jewish religion is more than religion like Islam and Chrisitanity. it is also an ethic group. to be jewish is to be born to one of the original 12 tribes of Israel, once again, a nation that stood on lands where modern israel now exists.

personally, im very anti religious, and do not believe in any messiahs or such typical religious non sense. i did go to a jewish religious school called Yeshiva for 2 years. The jewish people have a very deep cultural and psychological bond with the land of Israel, which they call Eretz Yisrael. in the Torah (the jewish bible, oldest written bible) the land of israel is mentioned hundreds of times. Israel is to Jews as Vatican is to Catholics, and Mecca is to Muslims.

its possible to convert to judaism, but these cases are very rare, its not like christianity. jews do not seek non jews to convert. that is why jews are such a small minority anywhere they live. you have to understand the jewish psychology when talking about the mid east conflict. many jews feel threatened by arab nations (rightfully so), and have a fortress-like mentality when dealing with other nations or groups. there is a very good reason for this. through out history, many people and groups tried to wipe out the jewish culture and race, and have failed. from the Persian king Haman, to Stalin, to Hitler and now to the palestinian groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad, jews feel as if once again, they are on the defensive for their own lives. that is why this little slip of land called israel is so sacred to them. its not just another country, its everything for them, their soul and their home.

personally i dont share that attachement, im not religious and doubt the exiistence of god, but i can understand the mentality of israelis.

oh and one more thing. im against the occupation of judea and samaria, as those people that youve mentioned with that link. the problem is that even if IDF withdraws to pre 67 borders right now, the palestinians will not stop their attacks, i guarrantee you. think about it, why was this antfiada started??? there is a big answer right here, in 2000, the IDF withdrew from lebanon, and Hizbulla and other palestinian armed groups thought they could do the same, get what they want through war. they got nothing, and never will, their people are now much worse than they were before. they also destoryed the Israeli Left, turning even the leftists into right wingers. terrorism is evil, no matter how you look at it. hopefully the palestinians will recongize that sooon, for their own good.

damn i wrote a lot.

dj xeno, are u muslim? do you read the koran?

[djxeno]

Tribal, thanks for those facts about Judaism. I didn't know that if you were Jewish you came from the 12 tribes.

And yes, I am an american born Muslim and I can read the Q'uran in Arabic. Even though I cannot understand Arabic, we are encouraged to learn Arabic when we are young and read the Q'uran this way, since it is in its purest form. I also read the Quran in english, and the Hadith (sayings and traditions of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)).

Me myself I try to be as religious as I can be, and with Islam, although some things are hard to follow, I understand why these things are forbidden in my religion and try to follow them as best as I can. Islam is a very practical religion I think.

Also, it is only this religion, (as far as I know) that you don't have to be a member of and you will still be saved. In chapter 5, verse 69 of the Q'uran, it says, it doesn't matter if you are a Christian or a Jew, as long as you believe in Allah and his prophets, you will be saved.

Muslims also beleive that our faith is the oldest of faiths, the faith that was lead down to Abraham, and that Islam had to come down to restore this faith since it got perverted through time with first Judaism and Christianity. Thus we beleive that Islam is the oldest religion, the first relligion as revealed to Abraham, in its purest form. If Christianity hadn't been changed, there wouldn't be any Islam. Islam views Christianity's greatest mistake as viewing Christ as both savior and lord. We do not believe that he was killed on the cross, we believe it onlly appeared that way and that his soul ascended to heaven because prophets of God cannot die that way. Also we do not believe he was the son of God, and we dont believe in the Trinity. However, we do recognize Christ as a prophet of God, and do believe that he will come again, but this time as a Muslim.

Peace,

-XeNo-

[tribal]

so djxeno, let me ask you something. do mainstream muslims condemn the suicide bombers and groups like al qada? i mean i keep hearing that they do, that the mainstream muslim community is completely against these groups, but then you look at pakistan or indonisia, and bin laden is like a rock star. his t shirts are sold, he even has a perfume named after him in pakistan. what do muslims really think of him?

[djxeno]

Originally posted by tribal

so djxeno, let me ask you something. do mainstream muslims condemn the suicide bombers and groups like al qada? i mean i keep hearing that they do, that the mainstream muslim community is completely against these groups, but then you look at pakistan or indonisia, and bin laden is like a rock star. his t shirts are sold, he even has a perfume named after him in pakistan. what do muslims really think of him?

It's the lack of education, which is scary. Real Muslims know that suicide bombings do not make you a "martyr." A Martyr is someone who dies in battle for a cause. Commiting suicide in Islam is strictly forbidden, and the Q'uran says that if you commit suicide, it is an insult to God who gave you life and that you will die thousands of times a painful death over and over in the afterlife.

Bid Laden is just like a Kharijite from back in the day. The Kharijites would murder other people if their beliefs were not as their own, even other Muslims, which Bin Laden has of course done.

The only reason Bin Laden is looked upon as a rock star is that he is someone who has done damage to the U.S., and in these countries people hate the U.S. cause they haven't been fair to the Muslims with thier sanctions and policies, like giving U.S. aid to Israel to kill thier Palestinian brothers and sisters. So someone who does damage to someone they hate they will like.

I've personally been to Pakistan many of times, and I don't think he is liked over there, Pakistan is much more moderate than countries like Iran, Iraq, and Afghanistan, I mean they've even had female heads of government.

Peace,

-XeNo-