igloo Posted September 18 Report Share Posted September 18 Does it really matter what pure Islam says versus what is being taught to millions by Islamic clerics......and is militant Islam indeed a part of Islam ......just a question, not a position...KARACHI, Pakistan — In warren-like streets of Karachi, influential Muslim religious schools and mosques swear allegiance to militant Islam worldwide, in what one former Pakistani general calls an axis of hate against the United States. It was in Karachi, a teeming city of more than 14 million people, that police and intelligence agents Wednesday captured one of the world's most wanted men -- Ramzi Binalshibh, U.S. officials said. Binalshibh was a roommate of hijacking leader Mohamed Atta in Germany; the FBI believes he was originally intended to be the 20th hijacker before he failed to enter the United States. His capture confirmed suspicions that many of the key figures from Al Qaeda have sought refuge in Karachi, a turbulent, crime-ridden, cosmopolitan city with longtime ties to the Middle East and with the easiest air and sea connections abroad. Karachi is Pakistan's main port and premier metropolis, a sophisticated center of international business and commerce which served as Pakistan's first capital until it was moved to Islamabad in 1962. However, it is also the country's crime center. Violence and the fear that Islamic militants are increasingly targeting Westerners have prompted many Americans, Britons, Germans and others to leave. Foreign consulates have either closed or scaled down their staffs. Early this year, the city's doctors staged a series of one day strikes to demand police protection after 13 doctors, most of them minority Shiite Muslims, were slain in a series of attacks. Karachi is also a center of Islamic militancy in Pakistan, a place where "holy warriors" on the run can find like-minded people willing to help with safe houses, false papers, money and protection. The city is also notorious for criminality, especially kidnappings and sectarian murders in which extremists from rival Muslim groups target members of other sects for assassination. It was in Karachi that Wall Street Journal correspondent Daniel Pearl was kidnapped in January. His body was found four months later in a shallow grave on the edge of the city. In May, a car bomb at the city's Sheraton Hotel killed 11 French engineers and three other people, including the suicide bomber. One month later, 12 Pakistanis died when a car bomb exploded at the U.S. Consulate. At the heart of Karachi's Islamic militant community is a network of Muslim religious schools, or madrassas, where respected clerics promote a brand of Islam little different from the one mandated by the Taliban when they ran Afghanistan. Many Taliban leaders, in fact, were graduates of madrassas in Karachi, Peshawar and other Pakistani cities. At Karachi's Banuri Town madrassa, each of the 10,000 students is taught to be a supporter of Al Qaeda and the Taliban. The school's headmaster, Nizamuddin Shamzai, said in a recent interview that students are taught that a good Muslim helps his friends evade capture. Several other major madrassas in Karachi, including Jamia Farooquia, have remained centers of pro-Taliban and Al Qaeda sentiment. The headmaster of Jamia Farooquia, Maulvi Saleemullah Khan, was a close friend of Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar and a frequent visitor to Afghanistan during Taliban rule. So influential are the madrassas within Pakistan, where more than 95 percent of the 145 million people are Muslims, that for security forces or the police to enter the grounds in search of Al Qaeda fugitives would cause a huge public backlash. In an interview with The Associated Press before he left for the U.N. General Assembly, Pakistan President Gen. Pervez Musharraf said Al Qaeda members fleeing Afghanistan had infiltrated beyond the remote tribal area along the border and were turning up in Pakistan's cities. Once in the cities, many of them have forged ties with Pakistani extremist groups such as Jaish-e-Mohammed, Harkat-ul-Mujahedeen and Lashkar-e-Tayyaba, which Musharraf has banned. Most of the major extremist groups have extensive networks in Karachi. Retired Pakistani Gen. Anwar Sher said that the alliance between Al Qaeda and Pakistani extremist groups was an "axis of hate" directed against the United States -- and by extension against Musharraf. Musharraf's decision to align Pakistan with the United States made him a marked man as far as militant Muslims are concerned. "Musharraf is working for America," said Muslim cleric Mohammed Asad Thanvi, a member of the privately run board that governs Islamic religious schools in Pakistan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djxeno Posted September 18 Report Share Posted September 18 What does this have to do with what Islam says about terror?Militant Islam is not a part of Islam...-XeNo- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igloo Posted September 18 Author Report Share Posted September 18 Originally posted by djxeno What does this have to do with what Islam says about terror?Militant Islam is not a part of Islam...-XeNo- Read again....key words to look for include: Islam, religious schools, clerics, Al Qaeda, school headmaster, etc........One may even be able to make a correlation about Islam-militant Islam- schools-Al Qaeda- terrorAt the heart of Karachi's Islamic militant community is a network of Muslim religious schools, or madrassas, where respected clerics promote a brand of Islam little different from the one mandated by the Taliban when they ran Afghanistan. Many Taliban leaders, in fact, were graduates of madrassas in Karachi, Peshawar and other Pakistani cities. At Karachi's Banuri Town madrassa, each of the 10,000 students is taught to be a supporter of Al Qaeda and the Taliban. The school's headmaster, Nizamuddin Shamzai, said in a recent interview that students are taught that a good Muslim helps his friends evade capture. Several other major madrassas in Karachi, including Jamia Farooquia, have remained centers of pro-Taliban and Al Qaeda sentiment. The headmaster of Jamia Farooquia, Maulvi Saleemullah Khan, was a close friend of Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar and a frequent visitor to Afghanistan during Taliban rule. So influential are the madrassas within Pakistan, where more than 95 percent of the 145 million people are Muslims, that for security forces or the police to enter the grounds in search of Al Qaeda fugitives would cause a huge public backlash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassa Posted September 18 Report Share Posted September 18 Echoing djxeno: what the hell does this have to do with anything....Igloo, you are confusing fundamentalist Muslims with everyday Muslims..the two groups do NOT share the same beliefs...it might be the same foundation, but altogether two different views on the subject. Just like Shi'ites believe in Ali and the Sunnis believe in Mohammad.Refer to this website for more information if you like: http://www.islamicity.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igloo Posted September 18 Author Report Share Posted September 18 Originally posted by sassa Echoing djxeno: what the hell does this have to do with anything....Igloo, you are confusing fundamentalist Muslims with everyday Muslims..the two groups do NOT share the same beliefs...it might be the same foundation, but altogether two different views on the subject. Just like Shi'ites believe in Ali and the Sunnis believe in Mohammad.Refer to this website for more information if you like: http://www.islamicity.org You are completely missing the point.......and again I already said I am not taking a psoition, just aking questions...Is Shii'ites Islam?....Are Sunni's Islam?.....keep going...get the picture yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassa Posted September 18 Report Share Posted September 18 Originally posted by igloo You are completely missing the point.......and again I already said I am not taking a psoition, just aking questions...Is Shii'ites Islam?....Are Sunni's Islam?.....keep going...get the picture yet? your problem is that you are generalizing all these groups. Iraq and Iran were involved in a 10 year war during the 1980's, Iraq is headed by a Sunni leader, Saddam (even though 60% of Iraq's population is Shi'ite) and Iran is a mainly Shi'ite state. Two different views, two different sides. Might be able to equate this with what happened in Gaul, with the Catholics and Hugenots... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igloo Posted September 18 Author Report Share Posted September 18 Originally posted by sassa your problem is that you are generalizing all these groups. Iraq and Iran were involved in a 10 year war during the 1980's, Iraq is headed by a Sunni leader, Saddam (even though 60% of Iraq's population is Shi'ite) and Iran is a mainly Shi'ite state. Two different views, two different sides. Might be able to equate this with what happened in Gaul, with the Catholics and Hugenots... I understand the differences between the groups.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igloo Posted September 18 Author Report Share Posted September 18 Originally posted by igloo I understand the differences between the groups.... I understand the difference between the groups....but do they not all fall under the banner of Islam?And does not Al-Qaeda recruit from all sects, and united the different "brands" under one banner?I hope you do not think I am grouping all Muslims together cause I am not...that is not what I am trying to do...just trying to get some discussion goingBut one Muslim's peaceful jihad is another Muslim's terrorist jihad..and all under the banner of Islam?Hence my point of the article... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassa Posted September 18 Report Share Posted September 18 Originally posted by igloo I understand the difference between the groups....but do they not all fall under the banner of Islam?And does not Al-Qaeda recruit from all sects, and united the different "brands" under one banner?I hope you do not think I am grouping all Muslims together cause I am not...that is not what I am trying to do...just trying to get some discussion goingBut one Muslim's peaceful jihad is another Muslim's terrorist jihad..and all under the banner of Islam?Hence my point of the article... no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igloo Posted September 18 Author Report Share Posted September 18 Originally posted by sassa no. I think you need to do a little more studying kid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djxeno Posted September 19 Report Share Posted September 19 There is only one true Islam igloo. Pick up an English version of the Q'uran or the Hadith.I'm sure you'll benefit from it.Peace,-XeNo- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igloo Posted September 19 Author Report Share Posted September 19 Originally posted by djxeno There is only one true Islam igloo. Peace,-XeNo- It is amazing you actually spent the time to make that statement.....did it make you feel good?...make you feel smart?You feel like you know something someone else does not?sorry if you are too fucking dumb to understand what I am saying.....but do me a favor- spare me with statements like above......fucking naive simpleton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djxeno Posted September 19 Report Share Posted September 19 What's your problem anyway kid??You ask questions and ppl answer them for you but then you get into a hissy fit like you have your panties in a bunch....Calm down boy....-XeNo- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siceone Posted September 19 Report Share Posted September 19 When the Catholic church promoted and help start the slave trade.. weren't they still Catholics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassa Posted September 19 Report Share Posted September 19 Originally posted by siceone When the Catholic church promoted and help start the slave trade.. weren't they still Catholics? i have my own theories about the catholic church...few people realize that it is one of the biggest scams human history has ever produced...but that will be told in another thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siceone Posted September 19 Report Share Posted September 19 Originally posted by sassa i have my own theories about the catholic church...few people realize that it is one of the biggest scams human history has ever produced...but that will be told in another thread. Regardless of how you feel about the catholic church you see my point of how a religion can be used to mask a heinious action.... which islam is doing.. Now say the catholic church did something horendous like touching little boys and covering it up... I was so disgusted by the way they handled the situation I left the church because those people are no longer represantative of my veiw... and alot of catholics have said the same thing... ISLAMIC CLERICS/TEACHERS/LEADERS have openly and actively tought, aided and commited Heinious acts of violence.. and I have heard a Few AMERICAN voices from islam denouncing the acts and EVEN FEWER denoucning the people behind those acts It doesn't matter what you think islam should be or how it's writen in the Koran or anything like that.. What matters is the actions of the perpetuators of it's doctrine.... and how they are percived by society... The Middle east and international islamic comunity for the most part HATES the US... they harbor terrorists Killers murderers thieves Kidnappers drug dealers. and I don't CAre about anyone else Im talking abotu Middle east muslims.. All you hear them say is that we are fighting a war against islam... No you fuckin morons we're at war to find the people responsible for 9/11.... and if you forgot what you saw on 9/11 and what happened to david pearl and the Uss cole and the embassy bombings and other actions... I think you liberals are also forgeting one thing They want to KILL YOU TOO THEY WANT YOU DEAD THEY THINK YOU ARE INFIDELS because you are an american citizen... What if your son died at the hands of another man? would you kill him and make him pay for his transgresion in the fullest extent possible... or would you ask him why ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassa Posted September 20 Report Share Posted September 20 Originally posted by siceone All you hear them say is that we are fighting a war against islam... No you fuckin morons we're at war to find the people responsible for 9/11.... and if you forgot what you saw on 9/11 and what happened to david pearl and the Uss cole and the embassy bombings and other actions... the people responsible DIED. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassa Posted September 20 Report Share Posted September 20 siceone, good post...i'll need some time to think about it.but, you are somewhat right...but islam cannot be equated with the catholic church...the quran has never been altered in the course of 1400+ years..neither has the religion. catholicism, on the other hand, has branched out into several different kinds of sects, some of which have very bizarre beliefs (there's a group in west virginia who believe that they can handle rattle snakes and God loves them so much, He will not permit them to bite them...come on...). The Bible has also been altered several times and is not the original manuscript that the followers of the Early Jerusalem Church aka Nasoreans aka Jesus and his men followed...You are right when you say some people use Islam to mask more henious thoughts and activities...BUT, these people are a TINY minority, and not at all how mainstream Islam is like...These people who hate the United States use religion as a reason to recruit fanatically religious people into their group. What does not come to the surface though is that these people are unsatisfied with the US and the West, based on economic, political, and other reasons. The UNDP published a report earlier this year titled the Arab Human Development Reporte 2002. This report is very depressing and puts the Middle East right above Latin America as one of the most deprived regions in the world, in terms of health care, education, women, civil, and human rights, and so forth. The youth are left wondering how their futures will unfold, and while starving and homeless people are very very scarce because of the Islamic pillar which says all people must help out one another (this is why you will always see poor people never going hungry in the Middle East, since people are always providing for them who have more...a nice concept I think).Anyways, I am probably going off topic a bit...I just hope you and others realize that other Muslims do not share these peoples' beliefs..that of any terrorist operation...Islam is staunchly AGAINST terrorism and all forms of it, UNLESS it is for self-defense, that is the ONLY instance in which a Muslim can use violence against someone else.sassa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siceone Posted September 20 Report Share Posted September 20 Originally posted by sassa siceone, good post...i'll need some time to think about it.but, you are somewhat right...but islam cannot be equated with the catholic church...the quran has never been altered in the course of 1400+ years..neither has the religion. catholicism, on the other hand, has branched out into several different kinds of sects, some of which have very bizarre beliefs (there's a group in west virginia who believe that they can handle rattle snakes and God loves them so much, He will not permit them to bite them...come on...). The Bible has also been altered several times and is not the original manuscript that the followers of the Early Jerusalem Church aka Nasoreans aka Jesus and his men followed...You are right when you say some people use Islam to mask more henious thoughts and activities...BUT, these people are a TINY minority, and not at all how mainstream Islam is like...These people who hate the United States use religion as a reason to recruit fanatically religious people into their group. What does not come to the surface though is that these people are unsatisfied with the US and the West, based on economic, political, and other reasons. The UNDP published a report earlier this year titled the Arab Human Development Reporte 2002. This report is very depressing and puts the Middle East right above Latin America as one of the most deprived regions in the world, in terms of health care, education, women, civil, and human rights, and so forth. The youth are left wondering how their futures will unfold, and while starving and homeless people are very very scarce because of the Islamic pillar which says all people must help out one another (this is why you will always see poor people never going hungry in the Middle East, since people are always providing for them who have more...a nice concept I think).Anyways, I am probably going off topic a bit...I just hope you and others realize that other Muslims do not share these peoples' beliefs..that of any terrorist operation...Islam is staunchly AGAINST terrorism and all forms of it, UNLESS it is for self-defense, that is the ONLY instance in which a Muslim can use violence against someone else.sassa Just a Couple of points the bible has no more been altered as it has been mistranslated and new and more "accurate" translations come about, When the bible is taught by theologians students of a spriitual jouney are urged to look past the words and into the deeper means... they are also taught to not look to hard for the answers to mysteries... They are told to pray to god for the wisdom to discern... I completely belive in helping people out but I don't belive in helping them out if they won't help them selves you can't make a man work and eat food... I like the way the shieks and princes help thier people out " go commit suicide in a God you don't even personaly know and we will pay you family" we don't see the example of brotherhood all we see starving people and Fat kings.... And the people LOVE THESE FAT KINGS Can they not put 2 and 2 together? I mean seriously who has the money?I have muslim friends and they are muslims.. and some try to tell me how I am wrong for being catholic and Im going to hell.. terrorism is engrained in muslim tradition and culture.. look at the way islam was spread since it's inception. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djxeno Posted September 20 Report Share Posted September 20 Originally posted by siceone I have muslim friends and they are muslims.. and some try to tell me how I am wrong for being catholic and Im going to hell.. terrorism is engrained in muslim tradition and culture.. look at the way islam was spread since it's inception. They're wrong. In Chapter 5, verse 69 of the Q'uran it says that as long as you believe in one God and his prophets, you can enter Paradise.-XeNo- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igloo Posted September 20 Author Report Share Posted September 20 Originally posted by sassa i have my own theories about the catholic church...few people realize that it is one of the biggest scams human history has ever produced...but that will be told in another thread. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts....seriously Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igloo Posted September 20 Author Report Share Posted September 20 Sassa and djxeno,Can you do me a favor...can you post some verses and quotes from the Koran that also show some of Islam's "questionable" direction....specifically, the Prophet Mohammed's teachings about infidels, non-believers, and the responsibility of Muslim's and jihad...Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ou812 Posted September 20 Report Share Posted September 20 Originally posted by sassa i have my own theories about the catholic church...few people realize that it is one of the biggest scams human history has ever produced...but that will be told in another thread. I think I know what she's referring to:http://www.hum.huji.ac.il/staff/fdss.htm http://www.geocities.com/engvaj/Scrolls.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ou812 Posted September 20 Report Share Posted September 20 Originally posted by igloo ....specifically, the Prophet Mohammed's teachings about infidels, non-believers, and the responsibility of Muslim's and jihad...Thanks Oh and igloo, just to clarify for you. The word "Jihad" does not mean "holy war" "battle" "fight" or whatever else the media has labelled it as. It has a very simple yet broad reaching meaning. Simply put jihad means "struggle", and people face a million and one different kinds of "struggle" on a daily basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igloo Posted September 20 Author Report Share Posted September 20 Originally posted by ou812 Oh and igloo, just to clarify for you. The word "Jihad" does not mean "holy war" "battle" "fight" or whatever else the media has labelled it as. It has a very simple yet broad reaching meaning. Simply put jihad means "struggle", and people face a million and one different kinds of "struggle" on a daily basis. Really Einstein...did you figure that out on your own?....Just to clarify for you- I don;t think the media is to blame for twisting and perverting the true meaning and spirit of jihad...Then again, I could be wrong - I heard a rumor that CNN, Fox and Friends, and the New York Times provide the teachers/clerics in Pakistani and Saudi religious schools who teach "holy war", ...Maxim provides the textbooks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.