To Sassa & Misfit(normalnoises), from O'Reilly

[igloo]

Bill O'Reilly

February 22, 2003

A peace of the action

Because I was a college student from 1967-71, I am a primary source as far as peace demonstrations are concerned. I vividly remember the Vietnam protests and the rhetoric that was used back then: "Hey, hey, LBJ, how many kids did you kill today?" It is eerily similar to what's going on today vis-a-vis Iraq.

Back then, many of the antiwar protestors considered America an evil place, full of warmongering politicians and a military intent on persecuting the people of Southeast Asia. The historical truth, however, turned out to be quite different.

I remember reading a book called The Killing Fields documenting the mass murder of up to 2 million Cambodians. Then I saw the movie [buy it] starring Sam Waterston. What the Khmer Rouge did was exactly what the Nazis did. Yet the peace demonstrators in America said little about it, perhaps because they knew that if the United States had prevailed in Vietnam, the "killing fields" of neighboring Cambodia would not have happened.

In the early 90s, I decided to go to Vietnam myself to have a look around. The communist system there allows little freedom and much poverty. In Saigon, I was besieged by Vietnamese who wanted to send messages to relatives and friends in America. I could not offer any assistance, as my "minder" would not even allow me to take their letters.

The point is that for every action, there is a reaction. The Vietnam War was begun to prevent communism in Southeast Asia. The United States was not successful because our allies were corrupt and we fought on the defensive. But what happened after we left Vietnam was far worse in humanitarian terms than anything that happened during that war. Again, I wonder if the Vietnam peace crowd ever thinks about that.

Now we have a similar but far more threatening situation. Many people simply don't want to remove Saddam Hussein by force. But if force is not used, Saddam stays. That means more Iraqis will be tortured and killed, and whatever weapons Saddam has accumulated stay in play. And despite the rhetoric, it is simply impossible to find vials of hidden anthrax in a country the size of California.

And what if someday some of that anthrax finds its way to your house? An elderly Connecticut woman named Ottilie Lundgren experienced that. She's dead. I don't think many of the protestors remember her very well. Perhaps I'm wrong.

If the unthinkable happens and anthrax does show up in America again, chances are the FBI will not be able to trace it. The bureau could not trace the first batch. The arrival of anthrax means Americans will die, institutions will be shut down, and panic will ensue.

The peace protestors do not want to address that possibility the same way they do not want to address "the killing fields." No, the demonstrators are confident that the U.N. weapons inspectors can "contain" a murderous dictator who acknowledged to the United Nations after the Gulf War that he possessed plenty of anthrax and other stuff even worse. And Saddam remains defiant -- he will not account for those hideous weapons.

So the next time you see an antiwar demonstration or hear appeasers like Jacques Chirac and Gerhardt Schroeder, think about Ottilie Lundgren and millions of faceless Cambodians. They died horribly, and no power was in place that could protect them.

Most of us know in our hearts that honest dissent is a strength of America and that war is a bad thing. But there are worse things, and every American should think about that.

[georgeacasta2]

A much bigger threat to national security is Korea. We know they have nukes and are capable of hitting the west coast and have even threatened to use them. Iraq doesn't have nukes as far as we know just biological weapons, yet we have 100,000 troops and several carriers set to attack Iraq? Open your eyes! Bush's dad never finished the war with Iraq. Bush is a strong supporter of big business. Our relations with the Saudi's has been very strained since 9/11. We need oil and we don't want to go through the Saudi's to get it. This isn't a humanitarian mission to Iraq. There's plenty of other countries that have ruthless dictators and oppressive goverments that we could be helping. You can't invade another country on a hunch that they have nuclear weapons. We're storming into Iraq with a humanitarian flag so the world will support us not because we give a shit about the Iraqi people.

As far as Oriely blaming the anti war protesters for the Khmer Rouge killing millions of Cambodians. I think the entire world should share the blame for that. Anti war protesters didn't want to see more americans die in Vietnam. If we had won Vietnam who knows hows many more americans would've lost their lives. It's the better of 2 evils. It's okay when our goverment justifies the killing of hundredes of thousands of japenese with a nuclear bomb to save american lives but it's not okay to end a war with vietnam and consequently allowing the Khmer Rouge to get in power to save american lives. The world as a whole is responsibe for that massacare in Cambodia.

People are protesting this war because it's blatant aggression of another country based on a hunch of nuclear weapons, not because we like ruthless dictators like Sadam. That whole "if your not with us your against us" argument is ridiculous.

[nycmuzik]

Yeah Saddam isnt a threat at all....Neither was Osama in 2000...So lets just wait a few more years until the anti-war protestors are sure Saddam is a threat....And the only proof acceptable is that of a few thousand dead bodies....Yup, thats the way to go....

[igloo]

To march against the war is not to give peace a chance. It is to give tyranny a chance. It is to give the Iraqi nuke a chance. It is to give the next terrorist mass murder a chance. It is to march for the furtherance of evil instead of the vanquishing of evil.

This cannot be the moral position.-

From one of my previous threads

[sassa]

Originally posted by igloo

To march against the war is not to give peace a chance. It is to give tyranny a chance. It is to give the Iraqi nuke a chance. It is to give the next terrorist mass murder a chance. It is to march for the furtherance of evil instead of the vanquishing of evil.

This cannot be the moral position.-

From one of my previous threads

how does violence+violence=peace???

[georgeacasta2]

Originally posted by nycmuzik

Yeah Saddam isnt a threat at all....Neither was Osama in 2000...So lets just wait a few more years until the anti-war protestors are sure Saddam is a threat....And the only proof acceptable is that of a few thousand dead bodies....Yup, thats the way to go....

I understand your point. Your being proactive. You can't attack another country just cause your paranoid they're going to attack you first. Cuba has a ruthless dictator. Why not attack them since they're closer to the U.S. and could POTENTIALLY be a threat to us. Could you imagine what society would be like if you were allowed attack other countries because you thought they were going to attack you first? Iraq had ties to the terrorists, but so did Saudi Arabia and Iran. As a matter a fact most of the 9/11 terrorsts were Saudi's. Why aren't we going after the Saudi's? We even have evidence that the Saudi's help fund the terrorists here in the U.S.

If the issue was truly national security then we would be focusing most of our efforts on North Korea since they have nukes AND HAVE THREATENED TO USE THEM!

[normalnoises]

"Why aren't we going after the Saudi's?"

Don't you ever wonder why we ain't going after the Saudis?

Why arent we going after the Saudi oil shieks who fund the terrorists? Yeah... the same oil sheiks the US oil execs buy the oil from? That oil may come from Kuwait but we pay Saudi prices and it's the sheiks who get the money who give it to the terrorists (yes we know they are Saudis too). The same terrorists who knocked down the twin towers, crashed a plane in a Pennsylvania field and another one on the Pentagon.

We brought this on ourselves.

We must bomb our own country .

And really, how DOES violence+violence=peace?

[georgeacasta2]

Originally posted by normalnoises

"Why aren't we going after the Saudi's?"

Don't you ever wonder why we ain't going after the Saudis?

Why arent we going after the Saudi oil shieks who fund the terrorists? Yeah... the same oil sheiks the US oil execs buy the oil from? That oil may come from Kuwait but we pay Saudi prices and it's the sheiks who get the money who give it to the terrorists (yes we know they are Saudis too)

Thank you captain obvious :laugh: I wouldn't have posted anything on this topic if I hadn't thought about it.

Originally posted by normalnoises

The same terrorists who knocked down the twin towers, crashed a plane in a Pennsylvania field and another one on the Pentagon.

We brought this on ourselves.

We continue to perpetuate the problem. Even after 9/11 that we now know that most of the terrorists were Saudi's we still continue to buy oil from these shieks who actively fund terrorists. We need an alternative to Saudi Oil. That is the ugly truth.

Originally posted by normalnoises

We must bomb our own country .

I'm assuming this is you being sarcastic. I personally think this is in very bad taste.

[normalnoises]

Originally posted by georgeacasta2

Thank you captain obvious :laugh: I wouldn't have posted anything on this topic if I hadn't thought about it.

Thank you but sorry to say I refuse to accept the award. Igloo is more deserving of it so why don't you pass it along to the waste of sperm?

We continue to perpetuate the problem. Even after 9/11 that we now know that most of the terrorists were Saudi's we still continue to buy oil from these shieks who actively fund terrorists. We need an alternative to Saudi Oil. That is the ugly truth.

Exactly.

I'm assuming this is you being sarcastic.

Don't ever assume, and yes, I WAS being sarcastic.

We could start by bombing Georgia.

I personally think this is in very bad taste.

Save that line for Igloo. His racism is in terribly bad taste.

[igloo]

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of a moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight-nothing he cares about more than his own safety--is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

-- John Stuart Mill

[bigmahs]

You lefties Independents or Hippies what ever the hell you beleive in JUST DON'T GET IT..

Here is the beautiful and ingenious plan that the Bush administration is executing.....

Let me ask you why is it that the middle east has any say or effect in world affairs whether diplomatically or funding terrorism? you got it OIL. After the RAID on Sadam is complete the oil fields will be on 100% output and eventually lessen the Arab controlled OPEC's grip on our wallets. The Saudi's, the Kingdom not the citizens are commited to the war on terror because they stand to lose billions if they anger their biggest customer.

The Middle Eastern governments don't give a fuck about the stability in the region for it's citizens. They oppose the aggressive stance the U.S is taken because they know that if Iraq's oil fields fall in the hands of a democratic gov't which is simpathetic to it's American ally's interests the price of oil will drop, which eventually decreases their power.

*****I hate to break this to U tree huggers but Money makes the world go round the more you have the more you command. The Saudi's and other arab countries fear interuption of income from the very pipe line of their influence. Is it about oil? you better beleive it, but it is the arabs that are creating the

anti- american sentiment to control the masses. The oil fields of IRAQ could have been ours in 1991...

So... Sadam is removed, his WMD stockpile is destroyed, the price of oil drops, american corporate profits improve and stock market goes up adding wood the U.S's furnace the consumer... ingenious!!!!!

******Mark my words when the majority of the Middle East like Iran, adapt to our way of living and not controlled by governments that oppress and are quick to use the american scapegoat for the countries hardships

- The MAJORITY of terrorism will stop....

[bigmahs]

:mad:

[bigmahs]

:)

[bigmahs]

fawk

[normalnoises]

You do business with the enemy, you become the enemy.

[bigpoppanils]

Originally posted by bigmahs

So... Sadam is removed, his WMD stockpile is destroyed, the price of oil drops, american corporate profits improve and stock market goes up adding wood the U.S's furnace the consumer... ingenious!!!!!

so a lower price of oil justifies the slaughter of thousands of people?

and another thing: the stock market will not rise due to lower oil prices...it will d so after the war ends....corporate profits are there: firms are waiting until after the war in iraq to invest. Bush does not deserve credit for an improving economy. Clinton didint either.

[mrmatas2277]

Originally posted by georgeacasta2

A much bigger threat to national security is Korea. yet we have 100,000 troops and several carriers set to attack Iraq? Open your eyes! Bush's dad never finished the war with Iraq. Bush is a strong supporter of big business. We need oil and we don't want to go through the Saudi's to get it.

yea of course this War has something do with oil...but also maybe Saddam is a bit of a loose cannon? the man has violated so many UN violations it isnt funny...if IT WAS ALL ABOUT OIL, i say we invade Venezuela, its closer and those people are more receptive to the US form of Democracy than Iraq...Iraq is another N. Korea in the making...its following the timeline just like N. Korea...lets give Saddam time...lets appease him with aid and accept his broken promises, that he has done time after time in the past...sorry people...u lie to me once, i dont trust u...flat out...the moment we handle this business with Iraq, the faster we can turn our eyes to N. Korea...right now N. Korea is talking tuff, we will see when we are done with Iraq, how tuff they are gonna be talking....

[mrmatas2277]

Originally posted by normalnoises

You do business with the enemy, you become the enemy.

dont take this as a sign of "friendship" or that i actually agree with ur way of thinking...but that last statement was actually 100% on the money....

I REPEAT: THIS IS NOT AN OLIVE BRANCH....

[normalnoises]

Originally posted by mrmatas2277

dont take this as a sign of "friendship" or that i actually agree with ur way of thinking...but that last statement was actually 100% on the money....

I REPEAT: THIS IS NOT AN OLIVE BRANCH....

Because the US has done business with the enemy. So who is the enemy??

When you do business with the enemy, you become the enemy.

Originally posted by bigpoppanils

so a lower price of oil justifies the slaughter of thousands of people?

No.

Also,

Does replacing a military dictatorship under Saddam with another military dictatorship under General Franks and oppressing the people (possibly x amount of times worse than Saddam) change Iraq for the better?

Are these the right solutions to lower the price of oil so we can pay less at the pump?

[mrmatas2277]

Originally posted by normalnoises

Because the US has done business with the enemy. So who is the enemy??

When you do business with the enemy, you become the enemy.

that part..that the US does "business" with Iraq...we should def. consider doing business with other countries or even better, REALLY start considering doing cutting back on "Petro"...we Def. find other means of fuel....

[vicman]

Originally posted by mrmatas2277

..right now N. Korea is talking tuff, we will see when we are done with Iraq, how tuff they are gonna be talking....

i think the N. Koreans are doing all this stuff in order to get more economic concessions from the US and its allies. the US wont do the same to the North Koreans as they are doing to Irak, the Koreans know it, I know it, we all know it and more importantly the Chinese know it. at the same time, even though I think the Korean leader Kim-whatever his name is more demented than Saddam, the Chinese wont allow him to go too crazy on anyone.

if the North Koreans invade the South, the US gets involved which could bring in the Chinese, there is to much, way to much at risk here for everyone.

[mrmatas2277]

Originally posted by vicman

i think the N. Koreans are doing all this stuff in order to get more economic concessions from the US and its allies. I think the Korean leader Kim-whatever his name is more demented than Saddam, the Chinese wont allow him to go too crazy on anyone.

if the North Koreans invade the South, the US gets involved which could bring in the Chinese, there is to much, way to much at risk here for everyone.

1. i agree 100% with u...but u know and i know, that "black mailing" the US will get u nowhere...this isnt the Clinton Administration...

2. the N. Korean is AS CRAZY as Saddam...only diff? Saddam doesnt have NUCLEAR CAP. just yet...if he does, we will have another N. Korea in a very unstable part of the world...and i doubt the Chinese can or will do anything about Kim....

3. the US will have to get involved and so will the UN...that war (Korean War II) will not only be the US by itself...Korea is on EVERYONE'S mind...especially the S. Koreans and the Japanese...

[mrmatas2277]

double post...

[dnice35]

Originally posted by mrmatas2277

double post...

Use the force Luke.....

[sassa]

Originally posted by mrmatas2277

yea of course this War has something do with oil...but also maybe Saddam is a bit of a loose cannon? the man has violated so many UN violations it isnt funny...if IT WAS ALL ABOUT OIL, i say we invade Venezuela, its closer and those people are more receptive to the US form of Democracy than Iraq...Iraq is another N. Korea in the making...its following the timeline just like N. Korea...lets give Saddam time...lets appease him with aid and accept his broken promises, that he has done time after time in the past...sorry people...u lie to me once, i dont trust u...flat out...the moment we handle this business with Iraq, the faster we can turn our eyes to N. Korea...right now N. Korea is talking tuff, we will see when we are done with Iraq, how tuff they are gonna be talking....

how many violations has iraq violated? do you know? did you know one of the US's biggest allies in the region has violated more than 60 itself? i bet you can guess who i'm talking about...wtf does this have to do with anything? using that same logic, we can take out many of our supposed "allies". iran was set to be a US ally, but when the iranians realized that the US just wanted to use them to position themselves in the ME and make them a puppet of the US, they lashed back immediately. why do you think the US supported saddam hussein during the 1980's by providing millions of dollars in support and weapons to the iraqis when they were fighting against iran? how is it that only in the period of 20 years or so, iraq suddenly becomes the enemy? face it, you can argue all you want, but the bottom line is that this war is only for the benefit of a small elite in western society, whose only purpose is to make sure they retain the enormous amount of power they have, all the while brainwashing the constituents of this country and others into believing their bullshit rhetoric...war is not noble, it is not necessary, it is not right. there is no way of looking at it otherwise. how is killing and destroying noble? this gung-ho attitude of many right and left wing shmucks has got to go....if this was a true democracy, the government would actually take into consideration the concerns of many millions of americans in this country who are against the war, as well as millions around the world who have protested against it. this is not a democratic system, and i dare anyone to argue against this. if this was a democracy, ALL constituents would be represented, not only the ones who bought bush his seat in the white house.

how can people be so blind as to not connect the dots and see all this bullshit taking place...

read paul kennedy's work, he's an american so no one can bitch that he doesn't know what he's "talking about"...he wrote a lot on the falling empire of the US and how it will come to an end soon...like the roman empire...what goes up, must come down...and i think people need to realize this. this country's power is coming to a close, they just can't accept it and are using every facet necessary to keep themselves in power, but now the infrastructure is eroding and the system has become corrupted...what makes this place better than anyone else? what gives us the right to parade around, demanding people do this and that...nothing.