dnice35 Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 Waiting to Kill AmericansSaddam's elite guard isn't all the U.S. military has to fear if it reaches Baghdad. One household is preparing to defend their country By APARASIM GHOSH/BAGHDAD YURI KOZYREV FOR TIMEMuntaha Keithem dismantles an AK-47 while her daughter Sabreen watchesMonday, Mar. 03, 2003Before the Americans take Baghdad, they'll have to roll over the dead body of Muntaha Keithem. The plump, brassy 40-year-old war widow has sent her family's AK-47 assault rifle to be repaired, and fully intends to use it to defend Iraq's capital. As she contemplates deadly gun battles in the streets around her brother's modest two-story home in the middle-class suburb of Bayaa, her leonine eyes blaze fiercely and she throws back her head to thrust out a defiant jaw. "The Americans should be warned that Iraqi women know how to fight and die as well as our men," she says. "We will give up our lives for our beloved country, our beloved Baghdad and our beloved Saddam." Melodrama becomes Muntaha, a part-time social worker who looks like a socialite in her chic black woollen overcoat, heavy make-up, purple nail polish and chestnut-streaked shoulder-length hair. Her verbal flourishes borrow heavily from official pamphlets and presidential speeches. But the emotion they convey is her own. Over three days of long conversations, at her home and office, it becomes clear that this bright and otherwise positive-thinking woman is indeed willing to die for Saddam Hussein. Will she back away when the shooting actually starts? That's impossible to tell, but her loyalty to Saddam runs deep and strong. Muntaha is, after all, a creature of Saddam's Iraq. "The president has looked after me," she says. A member of the ruling Ba'ath Party since she was 12, she was married just three months when her fighter-pilot husband was killed in 1981, an early victim of the Iraq-Iran war. Ever since, she's been wedded to the state, drawing her husband's pension, teaching 'home science' at a government-run high school for girls, and volunteering at the General Federation of Iraqi Women. Her daughter Sabreen, 21, studies journalism at Baghdad University, and Muntaha hopes she will one day work for the state-owned newspaper Al-Iraq. She's not close enough to the presidential coterie to be rich. Between her salary and her husband's pension, Muntaha makes 48,000 Iraqi dinars ($20) a month, and she only gets by because she lives in the home of her older brother, Mohammed Zaki. But she does have some influence in the women's federation: as deputy director of a Baghdad field office, she's responsible for planning and logistics across a quarter of the city. Oh, and she's met Saddam four times. "The president's door is always open to his people," she says, lapsing again into officialspeak. For Muntaha, the coming war will be as much about preserving a political system as anything else. "Who is George Bush to say how Iraq should be ruled?" she asks. "Saddam is our leader because we want him to be, and we're not going to let anybody take him away from us." Whether or not Muntaha and her AK-47 can repulse G.I.s from Baghdad, she represents a serious problem for American military planners. The resistance they will face may not come only from Saddam's army or his Republican Guard. Millions of ordinary Iraqis, like Muntaha, have benefited from Saddam's rule and have a personal stake in his survival. And they won't all have to make the ultimate sacrifice for their leader in order to complicate matters for the Americans. And then, there's another category of Iraqis whose hatred of the U.S. has nothing to do with Saddam Hussein. Like his sister, but for completely different reasons, Mohammed Zaki is also willing to fight to the death against the Americans. "This will be a war against Islam," he says, softly. "And as a Muslim I have a duty to give my life, if it is necessary, to protect my religion." Zaki, 45, is not a jihadi, at least not in the sense that word has come to be understood in the West since 9/11. A small, frail man with soft eyes and a courtly demeanor, his voice is not much louder than a whisper. He has too much old-world refinement to join a screaming mob and burn an American flag. Nor would he dream of strapping a bomb to his stomach and blowing himself up in a shopping mall. Still, he sees the U.S. as a force of great evil that, along with Israel, is hell-bent on destroying Islam. "The Americans and the Zionists have started this war," he says. "What can we do but fight back?" In Iraq, the Arab world's most secular nation, Islamists are a relatively new phenomenon. There's no telling how many there are. The government says Iraqi society is too open-minded for religious fundamentalism to take root, but many outside observers point to Saddam's massive programme of mosque-building as an effort to placate — and even foster — growing religious extremism. It's rare to find both an ardent Islamist and a committed Ba'athist living under the same roof. Zaki could scarcely be more different from Muntaha. He speaks without a sense of bravado, and smiles wanly when his sister interrupts him with some pro-Saddam sloganeering. There's little in his bearing to suggest that he is patriarch of a family of 20, including three widowed sisters and 12 children. He is a calligrapher by trade and makes around 75,000 dinars a month. "I am poor in money," he says, shyly, "but thanks to God, I am rich in family." A deeply religious Shia Muslim, Zaki bears the mark of the devout — the top of his forehead, just below his lace prayer cap, is darkened from repeated rubbing on the ground. Piety is the key to his influence over the extended household: with the exception of Muntaha, all the adult women wear traditional Islamic clothing, complete with tightly drawn headscarves. Even the token portrait of the president on the living room wall depicts Saddam deep in prayer. In contrast to Muntaha, Zaki is visibly uncomfortable discussing politics, and prefers to quote scripture rather than Saddam. But if the family were required to put up resistance to an invading force, he will have the first right to the AK-47. Not only is he the patriarch, he's also a war veteran: as a medic during the Gulf War, Zaki saw active duty in Kuwait. "I know how to use a gun very well," he says, without a trace of bravado. "You won't find an Iraqi man of my age who hasn't experienced war." Keen to show that the family women, too, know their way around an assault rifle, Muntaha arranges a demonstration at her office. Pulling some strings at the local Ba'ath Party office, she has two AK-47s brought to her office. She and her daughter, Sabreen, dress for the occasion in olive green military uniforms and black veils pulled across their faces to form masks. They then run through some basic drills they learned at rifle training two years ago. This includes dismantling and reassembling the rifles. Muntaha, rusty from lack of practice, runs into some trouble: taking her rifle apart is easy enough, but she's forgotten how to put it back together. "I used to be able to do this in two minutes," she says, with an embarrassed smile. An instructor who arrived with the rifles gives her a few clues, and she soon remembers which parts go where. She goes through the drill again: It's closer to 10 minutes than two, but her confidence is returning. "When the Americans come," she says, her lips pressed in determination, "I will be ready for them." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underwater Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 The Americans should be warned that Iraqi women know how to fight and die as well as our men," die being the key word in the sentence......congrats.....you are going to have your head blown off by the 101st infantry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dnice35 Posted March 4 Author Report Share Posted March 4 Originally posted by underwater The Americans should be warned that Iraqi women know how to fight and die as well as our men," die being the key word in the sentence......congrats.....you are going to have your head blown off by the 101st infantry i found that particular paragraph quite amuzing myself.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kramadas Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 oh yeah, let the AMericans come in and "free" the "oppressed people"!This is going to be a very "interesting" war! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dnice35 Posted March 4 Author Report Share Posted March 4 Originally posted by raver_mania oh yeah, let the AMericans come in and "free" the "oppressed people"!This is going to be a very "interesting" war! U MISSED THE POINT OF THIS ARTICLE, IF YOU NOTICE THE AUTHOR POINTS OUT THAT THE WOMAN BEING INTERVIEW HAS GREATLY BENEFITEED FROM THIS REGIME, THATS NOT THE CASE FOR THE "COMON JOE", OR THE "COMON MUHAMMED" I SHOULD SAY... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassa Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 cocky bastards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dnice35 Posted March 4 Author Report Share Posted March 4 Originally posted by sassa cocky bastards IGNORANT FOOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassa Posted March 4 Report Share Posted March 4 Originally posted by dnice35 IGNORANT FOOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
normalnoises Posted March 5 Report Share Posted March 5 Originally posted by dnice35 IGNORANT FOOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igloo Posted March 5 Report Share Posted March 5 Originally posted by raver_mania oh yeah, let the AMericans come in and "free" the "oppressed people"!This is going to be a very "interesting" war! C'mon man.....Do you really believe the Iraqi people would not be better off with a new regime?Imagine if the people had a govt that put more money into beneficial programs for the people instead of funding Palenstinian suicide bombers, or building billion dollar presidential palaces, or.....that little thing called WMD?I think you are being cynical.....are the costs/ramification/risks of this enormous....absolutely......but the potential yield is also enormous, and IMO outweighs the risks...I have had my doubts and reservations about this war for a long time....but I do believe that history will show this was the right thing to doI also think too many cynics too easily diminish the possibility of al-Qaeda getting WMD from govts like Iraq.........ironically, it would be the same people who, if that happened, would question what "Bush knew" and why he didn't do anything about it.......the same people who blast Bush on his terror alerts and scarying Americans, yet then question his focus on the war on terror.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dnice35 Posted March 5 Author Report Share Posted March 5 Originally posted by raver_mania oh yeah, let the AMericans come in and "free" the "oppressed people"!This is going to be a very "interesting" war! TO ELABORATE ON IGLOOS POINT, I DONT KNOW IF YOU READ EXACTLY HOW MUCH THAT WOMAN (WHO WANTS TO KILL AMERICANS AND LOVES SADDAM SO MUCH) MAKES, $20/MONTH. DO YOU HONESTLY THINK THOSE PEOPLE WONT BE BETTER OFF WITH A CHANGE IN REGIME? BY THE WAY HER BROTHER MAKES APROX. $30/MONTH, THATS A HOUSEHOLD MONTHLY INCOME OF $50 / MONTH, AND THEY ARE CONSIDERED TO HAVE BENEFITTED GREATLY FROM SADDAMS REGIME. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kramadas Posted March 5 Report Share Posted March 5 Originally posted by igloo C'mon man.....Do you really believe the Iraqi people would not be better off with a new regime?Imagine if the people had a govt that put more money into beneficial programs for the people instead of funding Palenstinian suicide bombers, or building billion dollar presidential palaces, or.....that little thing called WMD?I think you are being cynical.....are the costs/ramification/risks of this enormous....absolutely......but the potential yield is also enormous, and IMO outweighs the risks...I have had my doubts and reservations about this war for a long time....but I do believe that history will show this was the right thing to doI also think too many cynics too easily diminish the possibility of al-Qaeda getting WMD from govts like Iraq.........ironically, it would be the same people who, if that happened, would question what "Bush knew" and why he didn't do anything about it.......the same people who blast Bush on his terror alerts and scarying Americans, yet then question his focus on the war on terror.... I agree that there's a very large possibility that a majority of Iraqis would be better off without the Baath party in power. But the problem comes to this - who is the US to just go in and replace the leadership of a sovereign nation? And THATs my problem. OK, granted it IS a good change; then be consistent about it. Completely cut ties with, or even better, institute regime change, in ALL countries with dictatorships, ie Saudi, etc. Hell, Robert Mugabe is committing atrocities in Zimbabwe, why not go in and take him out? And thats the problem most Iraqis will have with the US coming in...they see it as an outside power coming in to "take over the country"...ie, in this case, a story of David and Goliath. In the end, IMHO, all this hype is actually helping to boost Saddam's popularity in the region, rather than the other way around. If they want a fuckin tryant as their leader, then its their decision. Who are we to just go in and replace him, just because WE think its the right thing to do? Right and wrong is very subjective, and definitely differs from culture to culture. Thus, acting on our values in another society, amounts to imposing our belief system on them. And thats what most of the ME (common people) see..and thats what they loathe. Now, if there are rebels/revolutionaries in Iraq, then I'm all for the US supporting them overthrow the govt...as opposed to a direct military conflict.Hell, this is a very complicated issue and I'm confused as hell as to what the "right" thing to do is. I think the best thing to do, is enjoy life like there's no tomorrow, for who knows - there might very well not be one!I need a drink! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kramadas Posted March 5 Report Share Posted March 5 Originally posted by dnice35 TO ELABORATE ON IGLOOS POINT, I DONT KNOW IF YOU READ EXACTLY HOW MUCH THAT WOMAN (WHO WANTS TO KILL AMERICANS AND LOVES SADDAM SO MUCH) MAKES, $20/MONTH. DO YOU HONESTLY THINK THOSE PEOPLE WONT BE BETTER OFF WITH A CHANGE IN REGIME? BY THE WAY HER BROTHER MAKES APROX. $30/MONTH, THATS A HOUSEHOLD MONTHLY INCOME OF $50 / MONTH, AND THEY ARE CONSIDERED TO HAVE BENEFITTED GREATLY FROM SADDAMS REGIME. Not really in monetory terms. It says that she was not close enough to the regime to be rich. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dnice35 Posted March 5 Author Report Share Posted March 5 Originally posted by raver_mania Not really in monetory terms. It says that she was not close enough to the regime to be rich. Muntaha is, after all, a creature of Saddam's Iraq. "The president has looked after me," yet all she makes is $20/months...... thos poor people dont know what a good life and opportunities mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igloo Posted March 5 Report Share Posted March 5 Originally posted by raver_mania I agree that there's a very large possibility that a majority of Iraqis would be better off without the Baath party in power. But the problem comes to this - who is the US to just go in and replace the leadership of a sovereign nation? And THATs my problem. OK, granted it IS a good change; then be consistent about it. Completely cut ties with, or even better, institute regime change, in ALL countries with dictatorships, ie Saudi, etc. Hell, Robert Mugabe is committing atrocities in Zimbabwe, why not go in and take him out? And thats the problem most Iraqis will have with the US coming in...they see it as an outside power coming in to "take over the country"...ie, in this case, a story of David and Goliath. In the end, IMHO, all this hype is actually helping to boost Saddam's popularity in the region, rather than the other way around. If they want a fuckin tryant as their leader, then its their decision. Who are we to just go in and replace him, just because WE think its the right thing to do? Right and wrong is very subjective, and definitely differs from culture to culture. Thus, acting on our values in another society, amounts to imposing our belief system on them. And thats what most of the ME (common people) see..and thats what they loathe. Now, if there are rebels/revolutionaries in Iraq, then I'm all for the US supporting them overthrow the govt...as opposed to a direct military conflict.Hell, this is a very complicated issue and I'm confused as hell as to what the "right" thing to do is. I think the best thing to do, is enjoy life like there's no tomorrow, for who knows - there might very well not be one!I need a drink! I agree it is the Iraqi people's choice...but that is the problem, they do not have a choice....and they need our help if they want to make a change....and their revolutionaries/rebels need our military--they can't do it on their own.....it has happened before, and it was disasterous (and our fault)....Granted, if we do it in Iraq (regime change), then we should be consistent everywhere (which won;t happen).....But that is for another debate (World's Policeman vs consistency)....Also, Iraq is one of the most westernized countries in the ME......the "people" on the street want, for the most part, American freedoms.....I do not think this is the US "imposing" our values on them....I work closely with someone from Iran, and who has family there.....the "street" is excited about what the US is doing, cause they feel that the same could happen for them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underwater Posted March 5 Report Share Posted March 5 the people of iraq want change....they just can't express their views or the will disappear into thin air.....its just like this country....much of the focus is on protestors....however, the silent majority supports the war..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dnice35 Posted March 5 Author Report Share Posted March 5 Originally posted by underwater the people of iraq want change....they just can't express their views or the will disappear into thin air.....its just like this country....much of the focus is on protestors....however, the silent majority supports the war..... everyone but Sassa and homonoises seem to agree with this..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igloo Posted March 5 Report Share Posted March 5 Originally posted by igloo I agree it is the Iraqi people's choice...but that is the problem, they do not have a choice....and they need our help if they want to make a change....and their revolutionaries/rebels need our military--they can't do it on their own.....it has happened before, and it was disasterous (and our fault)....Granted, if we do it in Iraq (regime change), then we should be consistent everywhere (which won;t happen).....But that is for another debate (World's Policeman vs consistency)....Also, Iraq is one of the most westernized countries in the ME......the "people" on the street want, for the most part, American freedoms.....I do not think this is the US "imposing" our values on them....I work closely with someone from Iran, and who has family there.....the "street" is excited about what the US is doing, cause they feel that the same could happen for them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassa Posted March 6 Report Share Posted March 6 Originally posted by dnice35 everyone but Sassa and homonoises seem to agree with this..... first of all, NEVER put words into my mouth that i didn't say.second, i don't agree with this. i believe the regime should change, but i don't believe this government is being truthful for the reasons they are using to invade iraq.finally, how are you going to liberate these poor iraqis? by bombing their homes and killing over thousands? sure, that will give them the peace and freedom they desire.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dnice35 Posted March 6 Author Report Share Posted March 6 Originally posted by sassa first of all, NEVER put words into my mouth. if not words, what would you like me to put in your mouth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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