How do we take our country back? Civil war?

[normalnoises]

Originally posted by bigpoppanils

don't waste your time tony...you should know by now that poor igloo rarely responds with a rebuttal of the facts...mostly with misdirected ad-homenims...

Especially when he's proven wrong.

[£ddie]

Originally posted by t0nythelover

(hey wheres the guy whos going to law school)

If you're referring to me, I graduated law school and am now an attorney. But anyway, no one is really saying that the Civil war was not about slavery and Dred Scott because those were obviously factors. BUT, the war was not about *only* slavery as as you seem to suggest.

In fact, it was *barely* about slavery. Tariffs and states rights were the driving factors behind why the Civil War took place.

Does it seem rational to believe that the entire South would be willing to go to war, send its sons to war and/or sacrifice for the needs of an army just so a few wealthy people could hold on to their slaves? (Remember, that it was the vast minority of Americans that owned slaves).

Does it seem rational that the entire North-which, we are erroneously taught did not own slaves-would go to war, send its sons to war and/or sacrifice for the needs of an army just so Lincoln could be a big man and free the slaves? Give our intelligence a major break here.

So, your professor's argument is flawed. And just because he has a law degree doesn't make his opinion gospel.

[cintron]

professors have historically been the most radical of opinions when it comes to politics. Mostly due to the fact that they're viewed as "god" by all their new upcoming student liberals who are searching for a cause.

as for this war, i feel bad for iraq and i feel bad for us all. I would have felt BETTER if Iraq didn't flick the international community the finger for the last decade about weapons, and now put on this grandiose show of sadness and helplessness at the very last minute.

this war is 100% legal. (ironic in itself, that war is something judged by "legality"). If Resolution 1441 doesn't specifically state that, then the documents signed by Iraq's officials at the end of the gulf war certainly do. THey stated then, that as a CONDITION for PEACE, the Iraqis were required to dissassemble and destroy their WMD projects and disclose ALL information WITHOUT OBSTRUCTION OR DELAY, to UN-sanctioned parties. The consequences being that any violation of that meant the treaty was null and void and that war would start again. In effect, the Gulf War never truly "ended". It just went on hiatus for a while. We've had people over there in large #'s since 91, keeping watch while this boggled inspections process got turned every which way and fucked in it's own ass more than once.

Looking at things in that context, Iraq could have agreed to t he fact that "in war, when you lose, you lose big." They could have given over their programs and NOT hid their weapons or kicked out the inspectors. Unfortunately they didn't which makes me feel worse for the Iraqi people, because as long as the government fails to live up to its own promises, the people suffer under the consequential sanctions and threat of war.

Not our fault. A government has the obligation to nurture and protect its people, not feed off their backs and ride them into the ground for its own purposes.

Shame things have come to this, but the american people will pull it together, I think. We always do when there's a true cause out there and people are putting their lives at risk on our behalf.

The only exceptions to that cause are individuals who are trying to further their own self-importance by dissenting and feeling that they are making the true progress in changing america for the better. Shame they don't realize they're the minority. Shame that thety dont realize that all their talk of dissent is exactly what this country DOESN"T need at the moment.

I think everyone in america all agrees that it's always a sad thing to go to war. I don't think that we also need to have more conflict WITHIN this country about who's right and who's wrong.

Just support the troops, wish for their safe return and a quick conflict and let history work itself out. History recorded all the voices around the world protesting against war. Now just shut the fuck up and let us do what we're going to do.

[underwater]

The only exceptions to that cause are individuals who are trying to further their own self-importance by dissenting and feeling that they are making the true progress in changing america for the better. Shame they don't realize they're the minority. Shame that thety dont realize that all their talk of dissent is exactly what this country DOESN"T need at the moment.

Great point....Misfits like TOM DASHCLE perhaps?.....That guy is a fucking brown star.....Great post Cintron.....Very well put.....

[sassa]

Originally posted by cintron

professors have historically been the most radical of opinions when it comes to politics. Mostly due to the fact that they're viewed as "god" by all their new upcoming student liberals who are searching for a cause.

as for this war, i feel bad for iraq and i feel bad for us all. I would have felt BETTER if Iraq didn't flick the international community the finger for the last decade about weapons, and now put on this grandiose show of sadness and helplessness at the very last minute.

this war is 100% legal. (ironic in itself, that war is something judged by "legality"). If Resolution 1441 doesn't specifically state that, then the documents signed by Iraq's officials at the end of the gulf war certainly do. THey stated then, that as a CONDITION for PEACE, the Iraqis were required to dissassemble and destroy their WMD projects and disclose ALL information WITHOUT OBSTRUCTION OR DELAY, to UN-sanctioned parties. The consequences being that any violation of that meant the treaty was null and void and that war would start again. In effect, the Gulf War never truly "ended". It just went on hiatus for a while. We've had people over there in large #'s since 91, keeping watch while this boggled inspections process got turned every which way and fucked in it's own ass more than once.

Looking at things in that context, Iraq could have agreed to t he fact that "in war, when you lose, you lose big." They could have given over their programs and NOT hid their weapons or kicked out the inspectors. Unfortunately they didn't which makes me feel worse for the Iraqi people, because as long as the government fails to live up to its own promises, the people suffer under the consequential sanctions and threat of war.

Not our fault. A government has the obligation to nurture and protect its people, not feed off their backs and ride them into the ground for its own purposes.

Shame things have come to this, but the american people will pull it together, I think. We always do when there's a true cause out there and people are putting their lives at risk on our behalf.

The only exceptions to that cause are individuals who are trying to further their own self-importance by dissenting and feeling that they are making the true progress in changing america for the better. Shame they don't realize they're the minority. Shame that thety dont realize that all their talk of dissent is exactly what this country DOESN"T need at the moment.

I think everyone in america all agrees that it's always a sad thing to go to war. I don't think that we also need to have more conflict WITHIN this country about who's right and who's wrong.

Just support the troops, wish for their safe return and a quick conflict and let history work itself out. History recorded all the voices around the world protesting against war. Now just shut the fuck up and let us do what we're going to do.

oh sure, we are now supposed to sit back and suddenly say yay to this war? i don't think so. it is wrong and there is no excuse whatsoever for them being there, it does suck and i know a lot of people who have family out there right now, but their purpose for being there does not excuse them from the reasons behind why this bullshit war is happening in the first place. this can be solved through diplomacy, bush is just looking for an enemy to wage war on and 9/11 and post-afghanistan invasion were past...they want to establish a dominant presence in the middle east...every political/economic move a gov't makes always has to do with this..no wonder they are saying we are going to "liberate" iraq and give it a democracy...yeah,like a democracy is so wonderful...look at our supposed democracy, where the elections even are fucked up and people don't even realize they are not democratic because they are unaware of anything....a democracy is when ALL members of society are represented, why is everyone in congress mainly white old men?where are the minorities, the women, the poor, the middle class? the person who gets the highest number of votes is elected president...what about what the rest of the constituency wants? they are not represented...we are run by corporate business, bottom line. a bunch of capitalist fatcats who happen to own much of the country's, and indeed the world's, wealth.

why should i support that?

[cintron]

a very romantic sentiment of self-righteousness, Sassa.

i never said we had to suddenly vote yes for the war. I know i personally don't agree with it.

it just saddens me to see so many people devoting their time to throwing a monkey wrench in the works, when that's the last thing we need as a country right now. It's far too late to pack up the tents and go home.

If we pulll out of the middle east tonight unconditionally, then what? It's not about being the laughing stock of the world.

It's about the thousands of people who are already mad at us who will see such an action as a sign of WEAKNESS. people who don't understand politics or debate, or the sense of fairness and reciprocation of goodwill. They'll only see hatred and if we don't act, they'll still be there killing us.

Were we invading Iraq when they killed hundreds of americans in beiruit in 83? What about the tehran hostage crisis, or our destroyed embassies in Kenya, the Khobar Towers, the USS Cole or the Pentagon, the WTC? Were we invading Iraq then?

People don't understand that TERRORISTS KILL, REGARDLESS OF WHAT THE FUCK WE"RE DOING AT THE MOMENT.

People also don't understand that SADDAM plays a ROLE in this. If you don't think it's hard for him to leave a weapons bunker unlocked, then you're the fool for it. Wasn't it only several months ago that a London apartment was raided by their police, and found to have traces of a highly toxic chemical substance, the SOURCE OF WHICH was determined to be a plant IN IRAQ?

think of the things we HAVEN"T found.

I agree, yes war is a sad and horrible thing to happen. this world has seen more than its share and it's a shame that the cycle is beginning anew. In this case though, what would you do? Pack up the army tents and head for home, just leaving Saddam in place to laugh at you? Would you listen to the ten million protesters world wide, telling you not to be the aggressor just because this time, nobody kicked you in the face to give you reason to hurt them back?

This war is MUCH more different than any other war we've ever had because it's not about what's going on today. It's about Tomorrow. It's about stuff that WE DON"T KNOW, like "what will happen if..."

It may be your opinion that the future isn't worth killing for, or that Iraq is innocent today. But thank god you don't speak for the rest of us. Bush can't afford to take the chance that tomorrow willl be just peachy keen and the weapons that saddam says don't exist, will just continue to not exist.

I will reiterate, if Saddam had NOT been a fuckhead about allowing inspectors into his country for the last TWELVE YEARS, we could have avoided all this.

Your passion is noted, but i feel it's misdirected. If there's anyone on which to place blame here, put it on Saddam's head.

He agreed to terms that he has NOT fulfilled and moreover, has spent considerable time and energy to work around having to fulfill.

I'ts ironic that all the peace protestors all the world over are against the United States launching "a war of aggression." I'm shocked to see NOBODY saying anything about the TYRANT who's allowed to continue BEING a tyrant and STILL possess his deadly toys. Nevermindd the other twisted evil shit both he and his sons and supporters have done to his own people and his neighbors.

[t0nythelover]

Eddie- i was refering to mr.matas who told me to lick his shoe because he was going to law school. but thanx for the input. actually the prof didnt say that those were the only factors, but rather the factor that finally made civil war inevitable.

once again i don't see why this thread turned into an iraq war thread, but...

i am not a pacifist. i am not against all war or the concept of war, i am against THIS war now for the following reasons.

1. bush is not a leader capable of leading the u.s. into war safely with a realistic solution. this will just fuck up shit in the middle east and have global repurcussions.

2. the current economy cannot afford the war. im going to have to pay 1200 dollars more for college while bush wastes money on war, gives the rich a tax cut, and makes tax cuts for suv's. thats bullshit.

3. the us has much more serious threats like osama bin laden. saddam is not the source of all terror in the middle east. those who think so are foolish. he is not an islamic fundamentalist for one. secondly he got his bio weapons from the u.s. so maybe we should stop arming people we cant trust (iran, iraq, afghanistan,and certain latin american drug lords)

i have many friends in the military so i dont just hope for the best with a vague idea of american soldiers being killed. im imagining the faces of my friends being killed in iraq, and that is why i dont want this war now.