mr mahs Posted May 2 Report Share Posted May 2 It is the soldier, not the reporter,who has given us freedom of the press.It is the soldier, not the poet,who has given us freedom of speech.It is the soldier, not the campus organizer,who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.It is the soldier,who salutes the flag,who serves beneath the flag,and whos coffin is draped by the flag,who allows the protester to burn the flag."Father Denis Edward O'Brian---USMC I love that I am proud of america again.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchbread Posted May 2 Report Share Posted May 2 Originally posted by mr mahs It is the soldier, not the reporter,who has given us freedom of the press.It is the soldier, not the poet,who has given us freedom of speech.It is the soldier, not the campus organizer,who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.It is the soldier,who salutes the flag,who serves beneath the flag,and whos coffin is draped by the flag,who allows the protester to burn the flag."Father Denis Edward O'Brian---USMC I love that I am proud of america again.... eeehhh!...wrong...soldiers follow orders...soldiers are not allowed to think on their own...soldiers are not allowed to take initiative...but most importantly: soldiers do not choose what they fight forthese ideas of free speech, come from people that think on their own...not people that follow orders... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cintron Posted May 2 Report Share Posted May 2 Originally posted by frenchbread eeehhh!...wrong...soldiers follow orders...soldiers are not allowed to think on their own...soldiers are not allowed to take initiative...but most importantly: soldiers do not choose what they fight forthese ideas of free speech, come from people that think on their own...not people that follow orders... my god you are closed minded and stereotypical.you are so wrong on the "mindless murdering automatron" tip that i don't know where to begin.Soldiers are given orders yes, but they are given the freedom to exercise their INITIATIVE and CREATIVITY to fulfill those orders, just as you are given the freedom to finish assignments at the office. It's the same thing.Soldiers do not choose their orders but they can choose what those orders mean to them and what they're doing it for.Its a job just like any other job and i'm sick and tired of people labelling military personel as government controlled robots.They're some of the most dignified, honorable and respectable people I know who have a tough job to do.Most of my family is in the military and i've seen them work. I'd say they're allowed TONS of leeway on how to get the job done, and tons of leeway on how to feel about it.Moreso than most corporations allow to their employees.The mindless "tell you what to think" approach is part of Boot Camp, to break down the individual and create a base. That's where it ends. Once you enter active duty, you can expect you aren't going to get very far if you can't think for yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchbread Posted May 2 Report Share Posted May 2 Originally posted by cintron my god you are closed minded and stereotypical.you are so wrong on the "mindless murdering automatron" tip that i don't know where to begin.Soldiers are given orders yes, but they are given the freedom to exercise their INITIATIVE and CREATIVITY to fulfill those orders, just as you are given the freedom to finish assignments at the office. It's the same thing.Soldiers do not choose their orders but they can choose what those orders mean to them and what they're doing it for.Its a job just like any other job and i'm sick and tired of people labelling military personel as government controlled robots.They're some of the most dignified, honorable and respectable people I know who have a tough job to do.Most of my family is in the military and i've seen them work. I'd say they're allowed TONS of leeway on how to get the job done, and tons of leeway on how to feel about it.Moreso than most corporations allow to their employees.The mindless "tell you what to think" approach is part of Boot Camp, to break down the individual and create a base. That's where it ends. Once you enter active duty, you can expect you aren't going to get very far if you can't think for yourself. i'm sorry cintron but you're being either very naive, or you're playing dumb...my point is that the soldier does not choose what he fights about...the soldier cannot discuss the orders given, and he is not to express, especially not publicly, how he feels about orders given out by superiors (can you say "court martial")...they have leeway...please...let's talk about vietnam war...early 70's..."search and destroy" missions...find and obliterate any village having "excess food", medical supplies, tunnels...and we were there to help those very villagers...well many soldiers were against that...but believe it, they had no leeway...order were to destroy...destroy they did...stereotyping?...look who's talking: "They're some of the most dignified, honorable and respectable people"...now that's stereotyping...yea let's talk about "black hawk down"...the name of one of the main characters (the one played by ewan mcgregor) had to be changed because the real life military officer is right now serving a 30-year sentence for child abuse...most respectable?...please...but they don't tell you that in the mass media when they're glorifying the "black hawk down" crew...now don't get me wrong, i'm not saying that military personal is made of bad people...i'm saying they're made of people...regular people...good and bad...certainly not better...and certainly they have to have a penchant for violence since they have to be ready to kill...again my point:mr mahs lives in a fantasy world...the soldier doesn't give us freedom of speech...the soldier doesn't choose what he fights for...now...the soldier might protect the freedom...but if he does, that's only because he's ordered to...not because he chooses too...and please don't take it as a personal attack (since you have family in the military...but you'll also have to see that you are definitely biased since most of your family is in the military)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
normalnoises Posted May 2 Report Share Posted May 2 Originally posted by frenchbread i'm sorry cintron but you're being either very naive, or you're playing dumb...my point is that the soldier does not choose what he fights about...the soldier cannot discuss the orders given, and he is not to express, especially not publicly, how he feels about orders given out by superiors (can you say "court martial")...they have leeway...please...let's talk about vietnam war...early 70's..."search and destroy" missions...find and obliterate any village having "excess food", medical supplies, tunnels...and we were there to help those very villagers...well many soldiers were against that...but believe it, they had no leeway...order were to destroy...destroy they did...stereotyping?...look who's talking: "They're some of the most dignified, honorable and respectable people"...now that's stereotyping...yea let's talk about "black hawk down"...the name of one of the main characters (the one played by ewan mcgregor) had to be changed because the real life military officer is right now serving a 30-year sentence for child abuse...most respectable?...please...but they don't tell you that in the mass media when they're glorifying the "black hawk down" crew...now don't get me wrong, i'm not saying that military personal is made of bad people...i'm saying they're made of people...regular people...good and bad...certainly not better...and certainly they have to have a penchant for violence since they have to be ready to kill...again my point:mr mahs lives in a fantasy world...the soldier doesn't give us freedom of speech...the soldier doesn't choose what he fights for...now...the soldier might protect the freedom...but if he does, that's only because he's ordered to...not because he chooses too...and please don't take it as a personal attack (since you have family in the military...but you'll also have to see that you are definitely biased since most of your family is in the military)... :clap: :clap: :clap: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cintron Posted May 2 Report Share Posted May 2 I won't take it as a personal attack, but I will say that the average soldier has about as much leeway as does any standard office drone working in a cubicle.Both have protocols to follow, both cannot choose their assignments more often than not and both are required to adhere to "the company line."Now, as to the vietnam era, that was a long time ago. In fact, even then there was a push towards personal leeway and initiative. it's something you absolutely HAVE to have as a soldier or you're going to end up dead. You might not want to shred documents that cover up a loss of profits, but if your boss tells you to do it or you're fired, chances are you'll probably do it. Hence Enron. The soldier too has their orders from their superiors. Again I ask how is that so different from what we experience every day? Watch the movies Office Space and Full Metal Jacket back to back and I guarantee the similarities will stare you blatantly in the face.The "throw our pink little bodies against the cannons" mentality applies mostly to world war I. Ever since then, the average soldier has developed into a thinking, analytical and capable individual. Most of the restriction on what they're allowed to do or not to do is imposed by bureaucrats and politicians. IF you want to find the bastion of inflexibility and "to the letter" politics, then the bureucratic apparatichik is where you should start looking.As to the reference of Somalia - all the soldiers there had a tough job to do. When you have an extremely difficult and precarious task before you, the best thing you can do is adhere as closely to policy as possible. It takes less guesswork out of things.Since the Clinton administration saw fit to send Task Force Ranger to Somalia, yet deny them the additional force structure that would have helped raise mission effectiveness and enhance force protection, the soldiers had to make do with what they had on hand. When Mogadishu opened fire on them that day, they had to do what they had to do.Not every soldier is a god or a saint, but the vast majority of them adhere to a code of honor that far surpasses anything that civilians such as you or I experience. Whether or not their personal lives are perfect is a different story. I will say that you'll find less dishonest and disrespectful individuals in the service than you will walking around the average neighborhood. Don't forget that the constitution and the Bill of Rights does NOT apply to them. they fight to protect something that they themselves are denied. Instead they have the UCMJ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchbread Posted May 2 Report Share Posted May 2 Originally posted by cintron I won't take it as a personal attack, but I will say that the average soldier has about as much leeway as does any standard office drone working in a cubicle.Both have protocols to follow, both cannot choose their assignments more often than not and both are required to adhere to "the company line."Now, as to the vietnam era, that was a long time ago. In fact, even then there was a push towards personal leeway and initiative. it's something you absolutely HAVE to have as a soldier or you're going to end up dead. You might not want to shred documents that cover up a loss of profits, but if your boss tells you to do it or you're fired, chances are you'll probably do it. Hence Enron. The soldier too has their orders from their superiors. Again I ask how is that so different from what we experience every day? Watch the movies Office Space and Full Metal Jacket back to back and I guarantee the similarities will stare you blatantly in the face.The "throw our pink little bodies against the cannons" mentality applies mostly to world war I. Ever since then, the average soldier has developed into a thinking, analytical and capable individual. Most of the restriction on what they're allowed to do or not to do is imposed by bureaucrats and politicians. IF you want to find the bastion of inflexibility and "to the letter" politics, then the bureucratic apparatichik is where you should start looking.As to the reference of Somalia - all the soldiers there had a tough job to do. When you have an extremely difficult and precarious task before you, the best thing you can do is adhere as closely to policy as possible. It takes less guesswork out of things.Since the Clinton administration saw fit to send Task Force Ranger to Somalia, yet deny them the additional force structure that would have helped raise mission effectiveness and enhance force protection, the soldiers had to make do with what they had on hand. When Mogadishu opened fire on them that day, they had to do what they had to do.Not every soldier is a god or a saint, but the vast majority of them adhere to a code of honor that far surpasses anything that civilians such as you or I experience. Whether or not their personal lives are perfect is a different story. I will say that you'll find less dishonest and disrespectful individuals in the service than you will walking around the average neighborhood. Don't forget that the constitution and the Bill of Rights does NOT apply to them. they fight to protect something that they themselves are denied. Instead they have the UCMJ. cintron again...my point is that the soldier doesn't give us the freedom of speech...you're arguing that they have as much leeway as office workers...that's not what i'm telling you...i'm not arguing with you who has more leeway, or freedom in doing their job...i'm simply responding to mahs' post, which glorifies the soldier has the freedom provider...my point again: mahs is living a fantasy when he puts out that little poem by that priest...the soldier follows order...end of story...the military is not an open forum...it's a machine that has simple rules...one of the most important one is chain of command...this poem by mahs is another piece of the fantasy world he lives in (other pieces: see the biography of bush he put up a while back)my point again:soldiers follow orders...soldiers are not allowed to think on their own...(i.e. they don't pick and choose the orders they have to follow)soldiers are not allowed to take initiative...(i.e. they don't make up their assignments)but most importantly: soldiers do not choose what they fight forthese ideas of free speech, come from people that think on their own...not people that follow orders...and again, don't tell me about office workers...i don't care about that...i'm not talking about that...p.s.:and with the "black hawk down"...you took another completely off course tangent there too...i was not talking about how hard of a job they had to do there...or who's fault it was...i was just showing you that soldiers are not more respectable people than other people...there are bad people and good people in the military...i.e. that guy that was glorified in the film "black hawk down" is right now serving a 30-year sentence for child abuse...that's not respectable...(and they don't tell you about that either in the media)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cintron Posted May 3 Report Share Posted May 3 actually, the soldier DOES give us the freedom of speech.I can't see how they wouldn't be.revolutionary war: We didn't politely ask the British to leave or have a round table discussion. We kicked their ass out and formed our own rules.War of 1812. we re-asserted our self-government.Since then the military has served as a constant force that protects those rights. By all means, if we didn't fight we very well could be serving Hitler or his cousins and speaking German. For real man - looking at History, imagine what would have happened if we had never fought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eccentricmofo Posted May 3 Report Share Posted May 3 Originally posted by frenchbread eeehhh!...wrong...soldiers follow orders...soldiers are not allowed to think on their own...soldiers are not allowed to take initiative...but most importantly: soldiers do not choose what they fight forthese ideas of free speech, come from people that think on their own...not people that follow orders... Ill ask you this question frenchtoast man... Are you a soldier????????? Probably not....so...another followup question.. How the fuck do you know what a soldier thinks, says, feels, etc...? You dont.. hombre... As far as your assholy as hell comments.. blah.. I have some spare time.. Your right....soldiers do take orders.. so burger king employees.. and electricianspolice men and womenstarbucks employeesdoctorsteacherssurgeonspriestsfarmersthe guy who packs cases of PIckles into a truck to deliver..LETS just hope you get my point with that, I rather not ramble for hours..Next...hmm Soldiers are not allowed to think on their own..YOur also right..I mean...I know for a fact that when you join the military they remove vital parts of your brain, which control the thinkin and make you a robot.... just like the fuckin movies..As far as the taking the initiative... IF they all did that, they wouldnt be soldiers....they would be self-proclaimed mercinaries and terrorists dumbass... THe whole thing with it being set up in a such a way is called...ORGANIZATION....also TEAMWORK etc.. for your homework assignment, look those two words up in the dictionary.. And now to the last comment you made...MY favorite...."but most importantly: soldiers do not choose what they fight forthese ideas of free speech, come from people that think on their own...not people that follow orders... " Soldiers DO choose what they fight for... We are one of the few countries that relies on an entire VOLUNTEER military force. that word you can look up too tonight..but to sum it up.. THEY CHOOSE TO BE A SOLDIER...and they know what that entails.. as far as the ellaboration of free speech garbage you speak...Cintron dude made very very good points... which obviously you cant comprehend.. And for the final thought, guess what, my anonymous adversary in views on CP..lol. Im about 90% through the process of becoming a soldier... Ive researched and inquired more then you could even fathom..and Ill tell you this.. Im not going to be a blind pawn of some extremists views.. And I also know that there are intiatives that I (and soldiers) have the ability to choose to take and/or not take, but you obviously cant comprehend that life is not always on a easy clean cut grandiose scale where everything is simple to understand. and finally..to jump back to your comment.. and quote you again.."but most importantly: soldiers do not choose what they fight for" I chose You want to know what Ive chosen? To risk my life for the greater good of this country, my country, aka your fucking country. Im not looking for a whoas me, good job... etc..no credit whatsoever....seriously..I seek nada in regards to that, but I would ask you this one favor. Think about it.. A complete stranger, (not just me, but 100s of thousands) risks his/her life, everyday so that you can live your life the way you have been. Show a little respect, you wouldnt be online without those soldiers, hell knowing your mouth you'd probably be shot 5 years back for protesting... ya hear me.. I mean, to each his own, you have a right to your views, but dont shit on someone else's views, of which JUST SO happen to coincidentally be protecting your asssss...<end rambling rant> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eccentricmofo Posted May 3 Report Share Posted May 3 p.s.mr mahsVery nice passage... brief yet powerful, too bad not all can understand it though.....frenchtster man... anyways... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cintron Posted May 3 Report Share Posted May 3 eh. frenchbread might be annoying but his opinions are well versed.normalnoises is about well versed as an anus at a burrito joint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eccentricmofo Posted May 3 Report Share Posted May 3 Originally posted by cintron eh. frenchbread might be annoying but his opinions are well versed.normalnoises is about well versed as an anus at a burrito joint. I agree, I was just re-reading what he wrote, but now that I think about it we are kind of argue about apples and oranges when really the discussion is about cheese..you know...lol. Ok, meaning that his views are more generalized, yet citing individual aspects (military structure, like you said boot camp ideology etc) that really do not support what he is talking about. Great, now Im confusing myself. I think what Im trying to say is simple.. He's passionate about his beliefs.. he seems educated yet I think he is just confused with exactly what his beliefs are. and Yes...I have heard about the burrito rumor...lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nycmuzik Posted May 3 Report Share Posted May 3 I'm not even going to bother responding in full to what Frenchbread said because Cintron already put it best....I'd just like to add that you can in no way, shape, or form compare today's military to that during the Vietnam era....This is a volunteer force compared to those people forced to serve because of the draft....And because this is a volunteer force, the moral of the troops, the equipment the use, the training they recieve, and whatever else use is a great deal better than that during Vietnam....Dont get me wrong though...The people that served during Vietnam were fine me and women...They did their jobs to the best of their abilities....But today's soldier is most definetly a better prepared one....Another thing I wanna add is in regards to the Black Hawk Down topic....What that guy did in Somalia has nothing to do with what he did in his civilian life.....He served his country very bravely at the time but what he did back home was sick....It was the civilian that did that...Not the soldier....Also, being in the military is not being regular....These people volunter to serve their country....They decide to put a hold on their lives for any amount of years.....They decide to leave behind all the people they love....They decide on a profession that could put their lives in great danger.....They decide that they love this country so much that they'll go and fight for it....They'll go and fight for the right of someone to call them a pig or baby-killer when they get back home....That, to me, is not being regular.....Hell, I guess I'm not regular....But I aint special either.....I just have a great admiration for what these people do and a great love for this country that took me in.....Whatever the case may be, I'm done with this topic....The poem wasnt even about a soldiers freedom of speech....It talked about the fact that the soldier allows for these rights to exist....Whats a law if there's no cop to enforce it?....So what would the Constitution and Bill of Rights be if the soldier wasnt there to protect it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
normalnoises Posted May 3 Report Share Posted May 3 "I love that I am proud of america again...." Good for you. Want a cookie?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchbread Posted May 3 Report Share Posted May 3 ok guys...i think that your ties to the military makes it hard for you to accept simple truths...and that's fine...i'm not trying to bash on you or on the military...i think it's not fine to live in this fantasy world where everything is idealized and glorified...cintron:cintron, the soldier does not give us freedom of speech...the soldier does what the consensus of the people wants it to do...the military is an extension of the will of the people...and when you look at history, look at both side...i mean it's so evident, i don't know how you can deny that...there is a soldier fighting for one thing, and there is a soldier fighting for the opposite...now how can you say that the soldier fights for freedom?...in wwii, the u.s. soldier was fighting for freedom, and the german soldier was fighting for the nazis...the soldier fights for whatever he's ordered to fight...and that should come from the head of state that represents his people...so like i said...ultimately the soldier fights for whatever the people want to fight for...the soldier doesn't choose what he fights for...again wwii: if you had been born in the u.s. you would have been a soldier, proud of it, and fighting for freedom...if you had been born in germany you would have been a soldier, proud of it, and fighting for the nazis...eccentricmofo:don't insult me, and i won't insult you...can't you have a discussion without insulting your counterpart?...as far as me not being exposed to military...you have no idea man...again, stop going off on all these tangents...my post was very clear: the soldier doesn't pick and choose what he fights for...therefore he doesn't give freedom of speech...he gives whatever he's ordered to give...i am not disrespecting the soldiers!...i am saying that it is wrong to glorify the soldiers like you guys want to do...let's do that...let's put the soldier on a pedestal...the soldier is the best and knows better and is the most respectable...what do you get?...a military country...that always turns in a dictature...and where is the freedom of speech in that?...and again, you chose...you chose to join this army...and if tomorrow this army decides to attack a country for reasons against your beliefs then what?...you're going to quit?...nope...you'll have to fight...you may choose to join the military, but you don't choose what the military tells you to fight for...my post never talked about the respect i have for the soldiers (which i have), boot-camp (like you said i did) or anything like that...i said this: the soldier doesn't choose what he fights for...once he joins the military, he has no more choice over what he fights for...he fights for what he's ordered to fight for:sometimes that will be freedom(u.s. soldier in wwii), sometimes that will be domination(german soldier in wwii)...nycmusik:funny how you say, that it's different from vietnam time...so what you think it was wrong?...well with time, this war on iraq might just become wrong too...and then kids your age now will join the military and say "you can't compare...it's different now"...as far as the "black hawk down" reference...you can't say "military people are some of the most respectable", and then dissociate his military life from his civilian life...if you're going to judge his character, you look at everything...and my point was that there are good people and bad people in the military...you can't deny this...military people are not some "blessed" people that are "higher" and better than "regular" people...you're judging this guy as two different person...so what are you saying that he has split personality?...you can't do that(doesn't hold), that's very dangerous...a serial rapist may do an great job in a company...so what...he's still a bad person...well the soldier might do a great job when fighting, if he's a child molestor, than he's a bad person...so again...i'm not talking about boot camp, the u.s. military...i'm talking about the soldierthe soldier is a regular person...the soldier can be a good person, the soldier can be a bad person...the soldier is part of a machine called the military...the soldier doesn't choose what he fights forp.s.: please don't take that as a personal attack because it's not...i'm not talking about you, the u.s. military, the french military, the japanese military...i'm talking about the soldier (i.e. in general terms)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nycmuzik Posted May 3 Report Share Posted May 3 Originally posted by frenchbread so again...i'm not talking about boot camp, the u.s. military...i'm talking about the soldierthe soldier is a regular person...the soldier can be a good person, the soldier can be a bad person...the soldier is part of a machine called the military...the soldier doesn't choose what he fights for When they sign up, they chose to fight for this country....Thats all that matters.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cintron Posted May 3 Report Share Posted May 3 Originally posted by nycmuzik When they sign up, they chose to fight for this country....Thats all that matters.... bingo. And as an instrument of the people, by defending a people, a soldier defends their rights.If a people decide that action must be taken and send soldiers to do the job, then the soldier is given an assignment just like anybody else in any other job would be given an assignment.Does an accountant choose what they do? Same deal. I don't see the big difference.Soldiers defend freedom by the will of a country who wishes them to do so. End of story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eccentricmofo Posted May 3 Report Share Posted May 3 Alright frenchbread dude, Ill admit, I was a little spicey you could say the other day. But you just hit a sore spot with me that I have been very intensely considering/debating/ and have decided upon, within the past 3 months. Although, you keep repeating that you are talking about the soldier, the soldier alone, etc..and accuse moi of my tangants, nycmuzak guy had a point, that solider in Somolia, was just that... a soldier..at home he was a perverted scum bag. So, if you would like to speak of the ideals of soldiers alone thats fine, but Ill make you a deal, Ill be more toned down if you avoid correlations between domestic abuse, child abuse and the military. Dammit, I need to stay away from these current events threads.. I can see where your coming from french but, its probably not to the extreme of which you are convincing yourself. I mean the president himself could come to me as me being a sargeant or private whatever and ORDER me to kill three children.. Lets say that whacked thing happened.... Would I assess the situation...yes.. Would i then decide myself whether or not to do it (no matter the consequences of a court marshall) yes I would..decide myself Now in that same whacked scenario... lets say three kids were planning to rig a nuke... or hell just push the button....ANywhere not just in the usa... Id like to think that I would be able to... By the righteousness of the greater good... Not just my countries ideals..but a mesh between mine and theirs.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wideskies Posted May 3 Report Share Posted May 3 if a war is about the rights of the people, then indeed the soldier is fighting for the people's rights.there have been wars fought for good reason, by brave men and women of all race/creed/sexuality/gender/whathaveyou.yet not everything that the government makes war for is about justice, freedom, or democracy. soldiers have fought for stupid and sad reasons, and their deaths are all the more tragic for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eccentricmofo Posted May 3 Report Share Posted May 3 Originally posted by wideskies if a war is about the rights of the people, then indeed the soldier is fighting for the people's rights.there have been wars fought for good reason, by brave men and women of all race/creed/sexuality/gender/whathaveyou.yet not everything that the government makes war for is about justice, freedom, or democracy. soldiers have fought for stupid and sad reasons, and their deaths are all the more tragic for it. Pardon me miss, but..Where were you a couple pages of this thread ago? You would of ended this discussion allready...lol Exactly what I think was in my head during the first rant of mine, but I get overly typey sometimes...Well said....wideskies.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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