igloo Posted June 10 Report Share Posted June 10 BacktrackingThe Bush Doctrine can’t succeed with exceptions.hen George W. Bush is good, he's very good. But when he's bad, he's very bad.He's good on taxes, and bad on spending. He's good on judges, and bad on campaign-finance reform. He's a good wartime president, and a bad ally of Israel.Yes, I said a bad ally of Israel. The terrorist group Hamas announced the other day that it would not abide by the president's roadmap for peace, and would not cease terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians. And Hamas, joined by other terrorist groups, has made good on its threat by killing Israeli soldiers and civilians. In response, today Israeli helicopters targeted a senior Hamas leader and wounded him. In Washington, White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said President Bush is "concerned that this strike will undermine efforts by Palestinian authorities to bring an end to terrorist attacks, and it does not contribute to the security of Israel." Fleischer's statement on behalf of the president is not only offensive, but is a flat-out rejection of the policy the Bush administration itself has established in dealing with terrorism. First, Israel is a democracy and a sovereign state. That Israel relies heavily on U.S. economic and military aid does not alter these facts. Israel's elected leaders, not the United States, decide what's in her best national-security interest. Israel's leaders are accountable to the Israeli people, just as President Bush is accountable to the American people. Israel's leaders not only have the right to take steps to protect their citizens, but failing to do so is a gross abrogation of their responsibilities. The president's public rebukes are not only arrogant, but they undermine Israel's ability to stand up to its terrorist attackers. Second, the president was rightly offended when France used its position on the U.N. Security Council to try to defeat the Bush Doctrine as applied to Iraq. Yet, the Bush administration has no qualms about imposing a contradictory policy on Israel — which requires Israel to accept, without retaliation, terrorist attacks on its people. In exchange, Israel is expected to entrust her survival on yet another "land-for-peace" initiative. This is not how America should treat its allies, especially those under siege. Third, the president knows that Israel is a tiny country among a sea of enemies. Having been president during 9/11, he must understand the fear and anguish the Israeli people live with every day. In the aftermath of 9/11, he didn't sue for peace. He didn't seek negotiations with the Taliban regime. He rallied the nation around the principle of self-defense and ordered American forces into action. President Bush did precisely the opposite of what he urges for Israel. Fourth, it's no accident that the more land and security Israel surrenders, the more Israeli citizens are murdered. Terrorists see Israeli concessions, in the face of their attacks, as weakness and opportunity. And it's no accident that this has occurred during the Clinton and Bush years, the only two administrations to endorse a Palestinian homeland. What better evidence can there be that enough Palestinians don't seek statehood and coexistence, but Israel's annihilation?As long as Israel remains the exception to the Bush Doctrine, the doctrine cannot succeed. And if the Bush Doctrine fails, terrorism cannot be defeated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassa Posted June 10 Report Share Posted June 10 Originally posted by igloo And if the Bush Doctrine fails, terrorism cannot be defeated. i yawned my way through the article but this last sentence was a real killer....what a bunch of drivel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
normalnoises Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 :zzz: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassa Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 Bush rebukes Israel over attack MSNBC NEWS SERVICES June 10 — The Bush administration, responding Tuesday to two attacks by Israeli forces against Palestinians — one a helicopter attack on a Hamas leader, the other an action against a residential area in which three civilians were killed — rebuked Israel, saying the assaults jeopardized the prospects for the U.S.-backed “road map†for Mideast peace. Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, however, showed no signs of restraining troops from retaliating against militants. PRESIDENT BUSH said the Israeli helicopter attack on the car of Hamas leader Abdel Aziz Rantisi in Gaza City did not promote Israel’s security. “I’m concerned the attacks make it more difficult for the Palestinian leadership to fight off terrorist attacks. ... I regret the loss of innocent life,†Bush told reporters in the Oval Office as he met Ugandan President Yoweri Museveni. “I am determined to keep the process on the road to peace,†Bush said. “And I believe with responsible leadership by all parties, we can bring peace to the region — and I emphasize all parties must behave responsibly to achieve that objective.†“The president is concerned that the strike will undermine efforts by Palestinian authorities and others to bring an end to terrorist attacks and does not contribute to the security of Israel,†Bush’s spokesman, Ari Fleischer, told reporters. Fleischer reiterated the long-held U.S. position that Israel had a right to defend itself. But he added, “Israel has to act on that right in a manner that is consistent with larger objectives, and in this case (the assassination attempt), the president views this as deeply troubling.†Secretary of State Colin Powell said in Buenos Aires: “We are concerned that this type of activity will delay the plan of progress we are hoping for as we move down the road map.†Israeli helicopters fired a barrage of missiles at Rantisi’s car, wounding Rantisi, the group’s public face, and dealing a blow to attempts to secure Hamas’ support for the peace plan. Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas condemned the attack, and Hamas, which had been considering a truce with Israel, vowed revenge. ISRAEL STRIKES RESIDENTIAL AREA Hours after the attack on Rantisi, Israeli forces fired toward a Palestinian residential area in the Gaza Strip, killing three Palestinians and wounding 30, doctors said. Palestinian medics and witnesses said the second attack occurred shortly after Palestinian militants fired rockets from northern Gaza and four landed in Israel, including in the border town of Sderot, the Israeli military said. The rockets were fired apparently in response to the attack on Rantisi. After the helicopter strike, Israeli officials called Rantisi an “arch terrorist†whom the Palestinians should have acted to stop earlier. “We said very clearly: If you are not going to stop him ... we will use whatever means is necessary in order to defend the life of our citizens,†Sharon aide Raanan Gissin said. An American lawmaker, Rep. Eliot Engel, D-N.Y., defended the Israeli action as equivalent to U.S. strikes on members of the al-Qaida network, believed to be responsible for the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on New York, Washington and Pennsylvania. “Just like the United States was right to seek out al-Qaida ... the Israelis have the right to try to stop terrorists,†Engel said. The Israeli attack on Rantisi, a senior political aide to Hamas founder Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, was a serious blow to the latest Middle East peace efforts, in which Bush took a personal role by meeting with leaders from both sides. The strike occurred when three Israeli Apache helicopter gunships appeared over Gaza City before noon Tuesday, and fired at least seven missiles toward Rantisi’s vehicle in a crowded thoroughfare. Rantisi said he jumped out of his car before it burst into flames. Hamas spokesman was an easy markPalestinian doctors said two people were killed, including one of Rantisi’s bodyguards. Rantisi was injured in the right leg and underwent surgery.TARGET'S SON AMONG INJUREDIn all, 27 people were wounded, including Rantisi’s son, said Dr. Moawiya Hassanain, director of Shifa Hospital. Three of the wounded were in critical condition. Hundreds of Hamas supporters rushed to the hospital, chanting, “Jihad will continue!†Dozens of Hamas gunmen fired in the air. Abbas, the Palestinian prime minister, told Palestinian Satellite TV the incident was a “terrorist attack in the full meaning of the word, because it targeted innocent people.†Such attacks “obstruct and sabotage the political process,†he said in a later statement. Hamas leaders vowed revenge. Speaking from his hospital bed, Rantisi denounced Sharon as a “pig†and vowed he would never be safe until Israel is expelled from the Palestinian territory. The term “pig†is deeply insulting to both Jews and Muslims, who consider the animal unclean. “This crime will not pass,†said Mahmou Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
normalnoises Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 ^^Fix that scratch... *Pushes stylus away from scratch on record* You gotta watch those double repeat posts.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassa Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 sorry about that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cintron Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 same old fucking story in the middle east.peace proposal, initial acceptance, consultations, infighting, mistrust, Hamas and/or Islamic Jihad basically shit on the proposal, the Palestinian government is powerless to stop then and Israel once again gets attacked, retaliating against the palestinians in trying to weed out t he terrorists, making palestinians mad, causing more attacks and causing Hamas to vow revenge [for the 4052348239473244th time.]Can somebody just go in and kill these assholes already?Destroy Hamas, destroy Islamic Jihad. End Of Story.Everytime a peace proposal crops up, they're always the groups who derail it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassa Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 Originally posted by cintron same old fucking story in the middle east.peace proposal, initial acceptance, consultations, infighting, mistrust, Hamas and/or Islamic Jihad basically shit on the proposal, the Palestinian government is powerless to stop then and Israel once again gets attacked, retaliating against the palestinians in trying to weed out t he terrorists, making palestinians mad, causing more attacks and causing Hamas to vow revenge [for the 4052348239473244th time.]Can somebody just go in and kill these assholes already?Destroy Hamas, destroy Islamic Jihad. End Of Story.Everytime a peace proposal crops up, they're always the groups who derail it. please. the israelis' behavior in the past 2 days has been unacceptable as well. they have radical fundamentalist jews living in the west bank. why? because these are the only people who have the balls to live in that area and not give a damn if they kill any palestinians or not. some right wing orthodox jews even pull (somehow) shit from the torah, claiming that if they kill anyone who is not jewish, it's ok because they are God's "chosen people" and no one else has that claim but them. This you can read in many books about orthodox Judaism, including this one which is very good:http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0745312764/qid=1055319628/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-1615978-0021658?v=glance&s=booksso please stop placing all the blame on just palestinians. the common people can't do shit and have to live under terrible conditions inflicted on them by the idf and the right wing government. when you create shitholes for people to live in, naturally their environment is going to shape their personalities and psychologies as such, what else are they going to resort to, they have already been resorted to live under slavery and poverty for over 50 years, either it's that or dying for a worthy cause. perhaps it's too radical, but this is why men justify war, along with many other fucked up reasons. look at how civilizations have pimped armies and militaries to do their bidding: these radical jews have seats in the government in the form of Shas and Kach parties...they formed coalitions with Likud, after Rabin....Netanyahu did this when he was elected. There is so much more involved with this, but I'm sure no one would really care anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igloo Posted June 11 Author Report Share Posted June 11 Originally posted by cintron Can somebody just go in and kill these assholes already?Destroy Hamas, destroy Islamic Jihad. End Of Story.Everytime a peace proposal crops up, they're always the groups who derail it. This is the bottom line---something the terrorist appeasers like Sassa do not understand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr mahs Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 Originally posted by igloo This is the bottom line---something the terrorist appeasers like Sassa do not understand In HAMAS's eyes ISREAL does not have the right to exist. How do you come to a compromise with people like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igloo Posted June 11 Author Report Share Posted June 11 Originally posted by mr mahs In HAMAS's eyes ISREAL does not have the right to exist. How do you come to a compromise with people like that. Kill them all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr mahs Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 Originally posted by igloo Kill them all I know Igloo my patience is running thin with this whole conflict too but that's not the answer. The more you kill the more they recruit it will never end. The palestinians have to come to grips with HAMAS and realise that they are compromising peace and state hood ppositive vent s have happened but they have to build on it. Why can't they see that the irradication of Isreal will never happen(hopefully) without killing themselves.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igloo Posted June 11 Author Report Share Posted June 11 Originally posted by mr mahs I know Igloo my patience is running thin with this whole conflict too but that's not the answer. The more you kill the more they recruit it will never end. The palestinians have to come to grips with HAMAS and realise that they are compromising peace and state hood ppositive vent s have happened but they have to build on it. Why can't they see that the irradication of Isreal will never happen(hopefully) without killing themselves.. AT the core of the issue is these groups will never accept Israels right to existence, and will continue to launch terrorist attacks...They are simply terrorist groups who want to destroy Israel, and they need to be eradicated......either by Israel or the Palestinian people, since a true state of Palestine will never be realized as long as these groups continue to operate.....They do not want to live side by side with Israel---they want Israel destroyed...That is the botton line--and there is only one way to deal with them---kill them allThen, and only then, can the Palestinians reach their dream of an independent stateI have tried to stay in the middle of this conflict, and always stated that both sides disgust me....but it is impossible to ignore that the very existence of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Hezbelloh (and the govt of Syria and Iran) make peace impossible...Plus, I think President Bush is crazy to condemn Israel for taking action against Hamas and their leader, after Hamas annouced the continuation of attacks, and then lauched one to support their claimsWould the US sit by and let that happen to us?Sorry man, I have zero tolerance for these terrorist groups...they need to be removed from the face of the earth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igloo Posted June 11 Author Report Share Posted June 11 Originally posted by igloo AT the core of the issue is these groups will never accept Israels right to existence, and will continue to launch terrorist attacks...They are simply terrorist groups who want to destroy Israel, and they need to be eradicated......either by Israel or the Palestinian people, since a true state of Palestine will never be realized as long as these groups continue to operate.....They do not want to live side by side with Israel---they want Israel destroyed...That is the botton line--and there is only one way to deal with them---kill them allThen, and only then, can the Palestinians reach their dream of an independent stateI have tried to stay in the middle of this conflict, and always stated that both sides disgust me....but it is impossible to ignore that the very existence of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Hezbelloh (and the govt of Syria and Iran) make peace impossible...Plus, I think President Bush is crazy to condemn Israel for taking action against Hamas and their leader, after Hamas annouced the continuation of attacks, and then lauched one to support their claimsWould the US sit by and let that happen to us?Sorry man, I have zero tolerance for these terrorist groups...they need to be removed from the face of the earth Just I finish this..another terrorist attack in Israel....14 dead and 50 wounded so far Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr mahs Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 A internal Civil war is what will solve this promblem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kramadas Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 This reminds me of the time Israel dropped a one ton bomb on a crowded apartment complex to kill one man. All these attacks did was kill innocent bystanders...I'm sure this is going to do tons to help Palestinians see that a ceasefire must be reached. Hamas had backed out of the current talks but had not ruled out more discussions...now even that will be hard to achieve. Both sides are equally to blame in this situation...btw, Hamas' position now is that Israel should withdraw from occupied land for them to call a ceasefire (newsarticle).For once, I actually support Bush - for his hard-line stance against Israel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr mahs Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 Originally posted by raver_mania This reminds me of the time Israel dropped a one ton bomb on a crowded apartment complex to kill one man. All these attacks did was kill innocent bystanders...I'm sure this is going to do tons to help Palestinians see that a ceasefire must be reached. Hamas had backed out of the current talks but had not ruled out more discussions...now even that will be hard to achieve. Both sides are equally to blame in this situation...btw, Hamas' position now is that Israel should withdraw from occupied land for them to call a ceasefire (newsarticle).For once, I actually support Bush - for his hard-line stance against Israel. But do you condemn Hamas's desire to derail the peace talks from the beginning? The isreali's have been squeezed to offer concessions. What people don't understand is that if the terrorist bombing or threats stop the Isreali's don't have a leg to stand on in arguing their assasination attempts of terrorists in the west bank and GAZA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cintron Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 the situation over there is so messed up, nobody can point fingers at anybody because EVERYBODY is at fault.But when Israel and the Palestinian govt sit down and look at a proposal, Hamas and Islamic Jihad always seem to step in and shit all over it, or set off a bomb somewhere because they KNOW Israel will begin its attacks all over again All they need to do is set one bomb off or kill one israeli for the cycle of violence to start all over again.So they do it, becuase they know that if peace works, they'll be out of a job.I'm not against palestinians and unlike what you've asserted, Sassa... I don't blame them OR the israelis. I blame people who choose violence over giving peace a chance and who are so prejudiced that they'd rather see Israel wped off the face of the earth before they'll sit down at a table with a jew.They don't want peace - they want victory. And victory with them means war... so I say give it to them. If hamas and groups like it are crippled and out of the way, then there's a greater chance that the peace process can continue unabated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kramadas Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 What do you think about the far right wing Israelis (many in power) who don't recognize the right of a Palestinian state, who are vehemently opposed to such a thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigpoppanils Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 Originally posted by mr mahs In HAMAS's eyes ISREAL does not have the right to exist. How do you come to a compromise with people like that. what a coincidence...Isreal doesnt beleive that the palestinians have a right to exist either Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassa Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 Originally posted by bigpoppanils what a coincidence...Isreal doesnt beleive that the palestinians have a right to exist either the palestinians do not condone judaism...they condone zionism. before the three major waves of aliyah (immigration)occured at the end of the 19th century/beginning of the 20th century, there were jews living in the region. arabs did not have a problem with them, and some palestinian activists have even said publicly they have no problem with judaism or jews. their problem (and i think it is justified) is with zionists. these people wrongly make zionism and judaism connected inevitably. this is wrong. judaism does not preach the things that they live by. they are trying to create a jewish state that would run from the nile to the euphrates. "israeli manifest destiny" in other words. but sadly, the media does not explain this, nor do people really care to know both their true definitions. zionism started in basil, switzerland. theodor herzl, it's founder, was a swiss jewish journalist. i don't really see how this is all connected to being a jew. in fact, the majority of the current jewish population in the world are descendents of people who converted to judaism later on, WAY after jesus was around the area. read about the khazar kingdom, they are a perfect example of aryan nomads who took a liking to judaism and converted. interesting why...but that is another completely different issue altogether.anyways, my point is for anyone to say the palestinans are racist against jews, is half based. it's not the religion they don't like, it's the philosophy of zionism which is based on racism and unequality that gets them going... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kramadas Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 Originally posted by sassa the palestinians do not condone judaism...they condone zionism. before the three major waves of aliyah (immigration)occured at the end of the 19th century/beginning of the 20th century, there were jews living in the region. arabs did not have a problem with them, and some palestinian activists have even said publicly they have no problem with judaism or jews. their problem (and i think it is justified) is with zionists. these people wrongly make zionism and judaism connected inevitably. this is wrong. judaism does not preach the things that they live by. they are trying to create a jewish state that would run from the nile to the euphrates. "israeli manifest destiny" in other words. but sadly, the media does not explain this, nor do people really care to know both their true definitions. zionism started in basil, switzerland. theodor herzl, it's founder, was a swiss jewish journalist. i don't really see how this is all connected to being a jew. in fact, the majority of the current jewish population in the world are descendents of people who converted to judaism later on, WAY after jesus was around the area. read about the khazar kingdom, they are a perfect example of aryan nomads who took a liking to judaism and converted. interesting why...but that is another completely different issue altogether.anyways, my point is for anyone to say the palestinans are racist against jews, is half based. it's not the religion they don't like, it's the philosophy of zionism which is based on racism and unequality that gets them going... You mean they DON"T condone zionism, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigpoppanils Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 Originally posted by raver_mania You mean they DON"T condone zionism, right? i was thinking the same thing....or condemn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassa Posted June 11 Report Share Posted June 11 Originally posted by raver_mania You mean they DON"T condone zionism, right? sorry, i'm not thinking clearly. finals week. i mean they condemn zionism, thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igloo Posted June 11 Author Report Share Posted June 11 Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the rest of them must be destroyed....sorry folks, I know this is a complex issue but the solution is black and white...Anything less and everyone is fooling themselves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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