carbs!!!

[rackham]

Originally posted by berniec

So your saying stick to what i've been doing, and not take in any carbs post workout (mostly b/c i work out so late) OR you saying that i should try and stuff some brown rice or something down after it? also, what do you consider a small amount?

thanks bro

You should ALWAYS take in carbs after lifting weights. Your muscles need to restock as ASAP!

[wideskies]

Originally posted by elitesnautica

Fineone - I thought you were a female, Sorry. which would have no use for those type of carbs.

I guess it would be okay for muscle gain. But even that, if you are not shooting insulin, then the high glycemic carbs will not do you much good.

Nautica

you're saying men and women have different carbohydrate needs? i didn't know this

[elitesnautica]

Originally posted by wideskies

you're saying men and women have different carbohydrate needs? i didn't know this

No they do not have different needs. But most females have different goals then men. Men like to bulk up, while most women perfer to stay lean.

If you are dieting, you don't have to load back up with high glycemic carbs - it can be done with low glycemic carbs and with some diets no carbs at all post workout.

The number one problem with carb loading after a workout is that people overdo it. And that can hinder fat loss.

Nautica

[elitesnautica]

And I forgot.

It is also much much easier for women to put on fat and harder for them to loose it. This is something that needs to be considered when consuming carbs.

Nautica

[rackham]

There is no reason why a person should not consume a *reasonable* amount of carbs immediately after a workout. It's been shown to make lifting significantly more effective.

If a person is dieting, they should be watching their overall calorie intake, not cutting out essential meals.

People these days treat carbs like the devil, the same way it used to be with fat. It's about CALORIES, people -- plain and simple!

[wideskies]

it starts getting complicated (for me) when there's talk of having to consume a *certain* amount of fat, carbs, and protein before and after workouts.

how significant are one's losses/gains if one consumes the correct amount of everything but at the "wrong" times? if i don't get, say, 30 gms of protein in an hour after my workout, but do consume .8-1 gm protein/lb body weight over the course of the day, will it have a truly noticeable impact on my ability to grow stronger?

if it does have a noticeable impact, are we talking like "i'll be able to do a couple more reps of bicep curls next time" or "i'll be able to add 10 lbs to my bicep curls next time"? obviously, the latter is a bit of an exaggeration, but ...

[rackham]

Med Sci Sports Exerc 2002 May;34(5):828-37 (ISSN: 0195-9131)

Levenhagen DK; Carr C; Carlson MG; Maron DJ; Borel MJ; Flakoll PJ

Department of Surgery, Vanderbilt University Medical Center, Nashville, TN 37232, USA.

PURPOSE: Exercise increases the use of amino acids for glucose production and stimulates the oxidation of amino acids and other substrates to provide ATP for muscular contraction, and thus the availability of amino acids and energy for postexercise muscle protein synthesis may be limiting. The purpose of this study was to determine the potential of postexercise nutrient intake to enhance the recovery of whole-body and skeletal muscle protein homeostasis in humans.

METHODS: Primed-continuous infusions of L-[1-13C]leucine and L-[ring-2H5]phenylalanine were initiated in the antecubital vein and blood was sampled from a femoral vein and a heated (arterialized) hand vein. Each study consisted of a 30-min basal, a 60-min exercise (bicycle at 60% VO2max), and a 180-min recovery period. Five men and five women were studied three times with an oral supplement administered immediately following exercise in random order: NO = 0, 0, 0; SUPP = 0, 8, 3; or SUPP+PRO = 10, 8, 3 g of protein, carbohydrate, and lipid, respectively.

RESULTS: Compared to NO, SUPP did not alter leg or whole-body protein homeostasis during the recovery period. In contrast, SUPP+PRO increased plasma essential amino acids 33%, leg fractional extraction of phenylalanine 4-fold, leg uptake of glucose 3.5-fold, and leg and whole-body protein synthesis 6-fold and 15%, respectively. Whereas postexercise intake of either NO or SUPP resulted in a net leg release of essential amino acids and net loss of whole-body and leg protein, SUPP+PRO resulted in a net leg uptake of essential amino acids and net whole-body and leg protein gain.

CONCLUSIONS: These findings suggest that the availability of amino acids is more important than the availability of energy for postexercise repair and synthesis of muscle proteins.

[wideskies]

thanks... now in english?

[rackham]

English translation (as I understand it):

If you take a protein shake immediately following exercise, 2 hours later you will have:

- 33% more essential amino acids

- 400% more phenylalanine (a particular essential amino acid that enhances mood and sexual function, among other things) in the worked bodypart

- 350% more glucose in the worked bodypart

- 600% more protein in the worked bodypart

- 15% more protein in the body overall.

Meanwhile, not consuming a protein shake results in a net LOSS of amino acids and protein that time period.

Seems pretty desireable to me.

[wideskies]

well, how about if you have a protein shake equivalent (tuna and fruit, etc) like 45 minutes after? is that too long? what about 30 min after?

[rackham]

I'm also finding many studies showing the value of high-glycemic carbs before, during, and after a workout, but I'll spare you all the mumbo-jumbo. They basically say that carbs improve training capacity, recovery time, and subsequent performance.

This is actually making me think I should sip on a Gatorade or something during my workouts... hmm...

[rackham]

Originally posted by wideskies

well, how about if you have a protein shake equivalent (tuna and fruit, etc) like 45 minutes after? is that too long? what about 30 min after?

Well, according to this study, the protein you consume BEFORE working out is actually more important, so you might want to focus on that instead.

I'm learning a lot today!!!

P.S. This study says that "Phenylalanine disappearance rate [is] an indicator of muscle protein synthesis from blood amino acids," which explains why the researchers in the previous study listed it separately. The 4-fold increase in leg fractional extraction of phenylalanine probably references the disappearance rate, meaning that protein was being synthesized that much faster.

[wideskies]

oh great, now you'll be working out with a IV drip.

[rackham]

Originally posted by wideskies

oh great, now you'll be working out with a IV drip.

I promise I won't get that crazy.

[elitesnautica]

If you are trying to bulk or even just trying to increase your lean muscle without adding fat, then high glycemic carbs are fine immediately post workout, in order to replenish glycogen levels.

But like I said before, if you are trying to get extremely lean, I would avoid any high glycemic carbs. If you do take in "sugars" you must avoid fat completely for at least 2-3 hours. The sugars will cause and insulin spike which will cause anabolic effects not only for muscle for also for adipose tissue.

And unless your workouts are extremely intense, like that of a bodybuilder or powerlifter, I doubt that your glycogen levels are depleted to the point to where they need restoration as quick as a sugar will do.

Nautica

[elitesnautica]

I've thought about this more.

Rackham, I do agree with you and the studies you have presented.

I am not changing my original feels, but was not fully explaining my reasoning. The sole reason I recommend people that people avoid them, is b/c of abuse (I guess I think I am the government.). Females and even male think they can pick up a carb drink post workout and drink the entire bottle (and some even drink one pre-work out - which is a definate problem when it comes to burning fat). The problem is, some of these have entirely too many high glycemic carbs and other added carbs as well.

So here are some guidlelines.

1. If bulking - sugars along with protein post workout are a must.

2. If glycogen levels are not completely depleted - avoid.

3. A female cutting should have around 10 to 15 grams along with 20 grams of protein.

4. Depending on size a male can go up a little on the carbs and protein.

5. Avoid fat after taking in the carbs.

6. 30 - 45 minutes after the high glycemic carbs, low glycemic carbs along with protein should also be ingested.

7. If on a carb depleteing/carb loading diet - carbs should be avoided post workout. (High glycemic carbs should be avoided during all carb depleting days)

8. Insulin - that is another story all together.

If there are any other ideas, feel free to add to this.

Nautica

[rackham]

Well, since my advice to anybody trying to lose weight is to count their calories, I don't advocate cutting carbs in any fashion. I lost 16 pounds in 2 months (that's the upper limit for safe weight loss) and ate tons of carbs the whole time.

Like I said, I don't think people should be skimping on essential meals just because they're trying to lose some weight.

[elitesnautica]

What kind of carbs did you eat???

[fineones]

Originally posted by elitesnautica

I've thought about this more.

Rackham, I do agree with you and the studies you have presented.

I am not changing my original feels, but was not fully explaining my reasoning. The sole reason I recommend people that people avoid them, is b/c of abuse (I guess I think I am the government.). Females and even male think they can pick up a carb drink post workout and drink the entire bottle (and some even drink one pre-work out - which is a definate problem when it comes to burning fat). The problem is, some of these have entirely too many high glycemic carbs and other added carbs as well.

So here are some guidlelines.

1. If bulking - sugars along with protein post workout are a must.

2. If glycogen levels are not completely depleted - avoid.

3. A female cutting should have around 10 to 15 grams along with 20 grams of protein.

4. Depending on size a male can go up a little on the carbs and protein.

5. Avoid fat after taking in the carbs.

6. 30 - 45 minutes after the high glycemic carbs, low glycemic carbs along with protein should also be ingested.

7. If on a carb depleteing/carb loading diet - carbs should be avoided post workout. (High glycemic carbs should be avoided during all carb depleting days)

8. Insulin - that is another story all together.

If there are any other ideas, feel free to add to this.

Nautica

good advice

thats pretty much what i stick to..just adjust alil here and alil there

[rackham]

Originally posted by elitesnautica

What kind of carbs did you eat???

Oh, I got my carbs from lots of places... yogurt, pizza, sandwiches, Zone bars, grape juice (in the morning before a workout), etc. etc. I wasn't overly picky; I just counted my calories and made sure that I was eating less than my maintenance amount... guaranteed way to lose weight!

[elitesnautica]

What is your body type??? I have worked with people who can eat all of the carbs they want and still be ripped. But then again, I have worked with females that got fat just by walking past a biscuit.

Nautica

[rackham]

Originally posted by elitesnautica

What is your body type??? I have worked with people who can eat all of the carbs they want and still be ripped. But then again, I have worked with females that got fat just by walking past a biscuit.

Nautica

How many more times am I going to have to say that weight loss is about calories in versus calories out? You can eat pizza and pasta all day long and still lose weight -- if your calories are below your maintenance level. But you could drink protein shakes all day long and still get fat -- if your calories are *above* your maintenance level.

All this "carbs are bad" hype is getting on my last nerve! Low-carb can HELP a person lose weight, but the bottom line is CALORIES.

[elitesnautica]

Originally posted by rackham

How many more times am I going to have to say that weight loss is about calories in versus calories out? You can eat pizza and pasta all day long and still lose weight -- if your calories are below your maintenance level. But you could drink protein shakes all day long and get fat -- if your calories are *above* your maintenance level.

All this "carbs are bad" bullshit is getting on my last nerve! Low-carb can HELP a person lose weight, but the bottom line is CALORIES.

You are clearly not reading my post very well. Or at least do not understand the mechanisms of homestasis in the body.

I think carbs are essentially to any person, whether the are working out or NOT. I can NOT stand the Atkins diet, Although a carb depletion and carb loading diet seems to work extremely well for most.

What is BAD and what is NOT needed is "HIGH GLYCEMIC CARBS" also know as simple sugars. These sugars are burned extremely fast and cause an insulin spike - which will drive protein into muscles and fat into fat cells. On the surface, this does not sound too bad - just avoid fats. But over time our bodies become resistance to this insulin - and now we have type II diabetes or at least a mild case of insulin resistance. If you don't consider this a problem, then you are not keeping up with statitics in america. Diabetes is one of the main problems, not only driving up medical cost but also can be related to over 350,000 deaths in america (this actually is a statistic for obesisty related deaths - but they go hand and hand).

If you can eat what you want and loose weight that is great. There is certain percentage of the population that can. But there is a very large percentage which can not. Also, if you are cutting calories and eating things like pizza, then you are not getting your essential fatty acids or nutrients which are needed for good health.

Keep in mind - fat takes very little energy (in the form of ATP) in order to survive. So if a person is extremely overwieght - the body will use fat as energy last - so everytime an overweight person tries to loose wieght - they loose muscle and hang on to that stubborn fat. That is unless they are feeding the body with protein and targeting the fat.

Now you got me late for school.

Nautica

[skince55]

Originally posted by rackham

How many more times am I going to have to say that weight loss is about calories in versus calories out? You can eat pizza and pasta all day long and still lose weight -- if your calories are below your maintenance level.

Weight loss is also dependent upon the person. We all don't loose and gain weight with the same amount of ease and difficulty. If you can eat pizza and loose weight than great, good for you, but others cannot, regardless of how low their calories are. Weightloss is not as easy as you make it out to be for some people. As far as the carbs are bad "hype", my father lost a good amount of weight at the beginning of this summer by doing the Atkins diet for about a month, maybe a little longer. But regardless he started eating normal again and has kept the weight off. I really don't think he would have got the results he did by just limiting calories. Another thing about carbs and limiting calories is you have to take into consideration that not everyone weighs each bit of food they eat to determine how many calories are in them. You say you ate pizza. How many calories were in each slice??? How do you know that for sure?? You don't know how much of each ingredient the pizzeria puts in(assuming thats where you got the pizza), and last I checked pizzeria's don't have nutriotional guides telling you how many calories are in each slice. My point being is that it is very easy to unknowingly go over your maintence calorie range, so why not eat healthy foods(low carbs or low sat fats) to give yourself a little room to play with just in case you do eat something that is a little higher in calories than you thought. And also remeber serving sizes on the side of boxes are tiny compared to what we actually eat and many people don't realize that.

[rackham]

Originally posted by elitesnautica

I think carbs are essentially to any person, whether the are working out or NOT. I can NOT stand the Atkins diet, Although a carb depletion and carb loading diet seems to work extremely well for most.

But only if they are consuming a correct amount of calories. Carb depletion doesn't mean shit if you just end up getting your calories from other sources.

What is BAD and what is NOT needed is "HIGH GLYCEMIC CARBS" also know as simple sugars. These sugars are burned extremely fast and cause an insulin spike - which will drive protein into muscles and fat into fat cells. On the surface, this does not sound too bad - just avoid fats. But over time our bodies become resistance to this insulin - and now we have type II diabetes or at least a mild case of insulin resistance. If you don't consider this a problem, then you are not keeping up with statitics in america. Diabetes is one of the main problems, not only driving up medical cost but also can be related to over 350,000 deaths in america (this actually is a statistic for obesisty related deaths - but they go hand and hand).

I never denied this. When have I said that high-glycemic carbs should be a frequent food source? Never. I've only said that if a person is monitoring their calorie intake, there is NO reason not to consume high-glycemic carbs after a workout!

If you can eat what you want and loose weight that is great. There is certain percentage of the population that can. But there is a very large percentage which can not. Also, if you are cutting calories and eating things like pizza, then you are not getting your essential fatty acids or nutrients which are needed for good health.

I can't eat what I want and lose weight. I have to watch my calories just like anybody else. I mentioned eating pizza because it proves that carbohydrates do not prevent weight loss. It most certainly was NOT a common meal for me.

Keep in mind - fat takes very little energy (in the form of ATP) in order to survive. So if a person is extremely overwieght - the body will use fat as energy last - so everytime an overweight person tries to loose wieght - they loose muscle and hang on to that stubborn fat. That is unless they are feeding the body with protein and targeting the fat.

Now you got me late for school.

Nautica

I think the same as you, that a person should eat a good amount of protein and lift weights to maintain muscle mass while losing weight. I have never said otherwise.

The bottom line is that calorie expenditure is the PRIMARY determining factor in weight loss. As you've said, there are many reasons why limiting carbohydrates can be helpful, but that doesn't mean a person should avoid them at all times, especially not post-workout.

I think we're actually in agreement but emphasizing different points.