How America Created a Terrorist Haven

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How America Created a Terrorist Haven

By JESSICA STERN

Yesterday's bombing of the United Nations headquarters in Baghdad was the latest evidence that America has taken a country that was not a terrorist threat and turned it into one.

Of course, we should be glad that the Iraq war was swifter than even its proponents had expected, and that a vicious tyrant was removed from power. But the aftermath has been another story. America has created — not through malevolence but through negligence — precisely the situation the Bush administration has described as a breeding ground for terrorists: a state unable to control its borders or provide for its citizens' rudimentary needs.

As the administration made clear in its national security strategy released last September, weak states are as threatening to American security as strong ones. Yet its inability to get basic services and legitimate governments up and running in post-war Afghanistan and Iraq — and its pursuant reluctance to see a connection between those failures and escalating anti-American violence — leave one wondering if it read its own report.

For example, the American commander in Iraq, Gen. John Abizaid, has described the almost daily attacks on his troops as guerrilla campaigns carried out by Baathist remnants with little public support. Yet an increasing number of Iraqis disagree: they believe that the attacks are being carried out by organized forces — motivated by nationalism, Islam and revenge — that feed off public unhappiness.

According to a survey this month by the Iraq Center for Research and Strategic Studies, nearly half of the Iraqis polled attribute the violence to provocation by American forces or resistance to the occupation (even more worrisome, the Arabic word for "resistance" used in the poll implies a certain amount of sympathy for the perpetrators). In the towns of Ramadi and Falluja, where many of the recent attacks have taken place, nearly 90 percent of respondents attributed the attacks to these causes.

Why would ordinary Iraqis not rush to condemn violence against the soldiers who liberated them from Saddam Hussein? Mustapha Alani, an Iraqi scholar with the Royal United Services Institute in London, gave me a possible explanation: even in the darkest days of the Iran-Iraq war, most Iraqis (other than Kurds and Marsh Arabs) did not have to worry about personal security. They could not speak their minds, but they could count on electricity, water and telephone service for at least part of the day. Today they fear being attacked in their bedrooms; power, water and telephones are routinely unavailable. As Mr. Alani put it, Iraqis today could could care less about democracy, they just want assurance that their daughters won't be raped or their sons kidnapped en route to the grocery store.

Blaming the violence on isolated Baath loyalists was perhaps more plausible when the violence was centered in the Sunni heartland. But the recent riots in the southern Shiite city of Basra, and the sabotage of a major oil pipeline in the Kurdish north, make clear that other regions may not be peaceable indefinitely.

Shiites widely supported the operation to remove Saddam Hussein, but they are furious about what they see as American incompetence since the war. This set the stage for religious extremists. Moktada al-Sadr, a vitriolic cleric in Basra, says he has recruited a 5,000-man Shiite army to take on the occupiers. In public he is urging his followers to engage in "peaceful" resistance, but some have told Western reporters that they are prepared to carry out "martyrdom operations" if and when they receive orders to do so.

In addition, in the run-up to the war, most Iraqis viewed the foreign volunteers who were rushing in to fight against America as troublemakers, and Saddam Hussein's forces reportedly killed many of them. Today, according to Mr. Alani, these foreigners are increasingly welcomed by the public, especially in the former Baathist strongholds north of Baghdad.

As bad as the situation inside Iraq may be, the effect that the war has had on terrorist recruitment around the globe may be even more worrisome. Even before the coalition troops invaded, a senior United States counterterrorism official told reporters that "an American invasion of Iraq is already being used as a recruitment tool by Al Qaeda and other groups." Intelligence officials in the United States, Europe and Africa say that the recruits they are seeing now are younger than in the past. Television images of American soldiers and tanks in Baghdad are deeply humiliating to Muslims, even those who didn't like Saddam Hussein, explained Saad al-Faqih, head of Movement for Islamic Reform in Arabia, a Saudi dissident group in London. He told me that some 3,000 young Saudis have entered Iraq in recent months, and called the war "a gift to Osama bin Laden."

Hassan Nasrallah, head of the Lebanese Shiite group Hezbollah, told a crowd of 150,000 in a March religious observance that the United States was trying to create a "tragedy for humanity and to spread chaos in the world" and predicted that the people of Iraq and the region would "welcome American troops with rifles, blood, arms, martyrdom."

The occupation has given disparate groups from various countries a common battlefield on which to fight a common enemy. Hamid Mir, a biographer of Osama bin Laden, has been traveling in Iraq and told me that Hezbollah has greatly stepped up its activities not only in Shiite regions but also in Baghdad.

Most ominously, Al Qaeda's influence may be growing. It has been linked to attacks as far apart as Indonesia, Saudi Arabia and Morocco. One suspect in yesterday's attack is Ansar al-Islam, a Qaeda offshoot whose camps in Northern Iraq were destroyed early in the war. In recent weeks American officials acknowledged that members of the group had slipped into Iraq from Iran, had begun organizing in Baghdad and were suspected of plotting bombings, including the Aug. 7 attack on the Jordanian Embassy. In addition, Mr. Mir reported that Al Qaeda was carving out new training grounds in the border region between Iraq and Syria.

While there is no single root cause of terrorism, my interviews with terrorists over the past five years suggest that alienation, perceived humiliation and lack of political and economic opportunities make young men susceptible to extremism. It can evolve easily into violence when government institutions are weak and there is money available to pay for a holy war. America is unlikely to win the hearts and minds of committed terrorists. After some time on the job, it is hard for them to imagine another life. Several described jihad to me as being "addictive."

Thus the best way to fight them is to ensure that they are rejected by the broader population. Terrorists and guerrillas rely on getting at least some popular support. America's task will be to restore public safety in Iraq and put in place effective governing institutions that are run by Iraqis. It would also help if we involved more troops from other countries, to make clear that the war wasn't an American plot to steal Iraq's oil and denigrate Islam, as the extremists argue.

The goal of creating a better Iraq is a noble one, but a first step will be making sure that ordinary Iraqis find America's ideals and assistance more appealing than Al Qaeda's.

Jessica Stern, a lecturer at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, is author of "Terror in the Name of God: Why Religious Militants Kill."

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Deceit - How Downing Street

Made Case For Iraq War

By Kim Sengupta and Nigel Morris

The Independent - UK

8-19-03

The extent to which Downing Street sought to convince a doubting British public of the need to go to war in Iraq was exposed before the Hutton inquiry yesterday.

Hitherto unpublished official papers disclosed at the inquiry showed grave doubts at the highest level of government about its own case for supporting the invasion of Iraq.

Jonathan Powell, Tony Blair's chief of staff, admitted a week before the publication of the Iraq weapons dossier that it did "nothing to demonstrate a threat, let alone an imminent threat from Saddam", the inquiry was told yesterday.

The Prime Minister had already authorised a "substantial rewrite" of the document, before the complaint by Mr Powell.

The latest in a series of highly damaging revelations came as the inquiry focused on the role of Downing Street, not only in the circumstances of David Kelly's death but in the wider issues surrounding the countdown to war.

With the credibility of Mr Blair's government increasingly at stake, Alastair Campbell, the Prime Minister's director of communications and strategy, will take the witness stand today to answer questions on his role.

Mr Campbell has vehemently denied the allegation that he "sexed up" last September's dossier, while the Prime Minister has declared that this was the most serious charge that could be levelled against a government.

Yesterday the inquiry was shown an e-mail from Mr Campbell to Jonathan Powell, dated 5 September, 19 days before the dossier was published, disclosing that the document was being substantially rewritten.

It said: "Re dossier, substantial rewrite with JS and Julian M in charge, which JS will take to US next Friday, and be in shape Monday thereafter. Structure as per TB's discussion. Agreement that there has to be real intelligence material in their presentation." JS apparently referred to John Scarlett, the chairman of the Joint Intelligence Committee, while Julian Miller was the chief of the assessment staff at the Cabinet Office.

But despite the "substantial rewrite" 12 days earlier, with the date of publication approaching, Mr Powell reflected the alarm within No 10 that the intelligence services had failed to produce the smoking gun that would swing public opinion behind war.

The e-mail to Mr Scarlett, in charge of compiling the dossier, stated: "The dossier is good and convincing for those who are prepared to be convinced. The document does nothing to demonstrate a threat, let alone an imminent threat from Saddam ... We will need to make it clear in launching the document that we do not claim that we have evidence that he is an imminent threat. In other words it shows he has the means, but it does not demonstrate that he has the motive to attack his neighbours, let alone the West."

The e-mail also sought further information on the Iraqi regime's alleged links with al-Qa'ida. Efforts had been made to blank out a section that said: "The document says nothing about these, and TB will need ..."

The inquiry had been told that a draft dossier produced on 5 September did not contain the now notorious claim that Iraq would be able to launch a chemical and biological attack within 45 minutes. However, in the final version published on 24 September, Tony Blair declared in the foreword that Saddam Hussein would be "ready" to carry out the 45-minute threat.

Yesterday there was further discomfort for Downing Street with the disclosure of tension and acrimony over its festering feud with the BBC over the reporter Andrew Gilligan's claim that the Government had inserted the "45-minute" threat into the dossier despite scepticism from the intelligence services.

The Prime Minister's official spokesman Tom Kelly had written in an e-mail to Mr Powell: "This is now a game of chicken with the Beeb. The only way they will shift is if they see the screw tightening."

Mr Blair's spokesman, who referred to Dr Kelly, described by international experts as one of Britain's foremost authorities on biological weapons, as a "Walter Mitty"-type fantasist, will give his evidence tomorrow.

The inquiry was told that a letter sent to Gavyn Davies, the chairman of the BBC's board of governors, from the Defence Secretary, Geoff Hoon, was a virtual copy of the wording used in a memorandum by Mr Campbell.

Contradicting Downing Street claims that the Kelly affair was left as an internal matter for the Ministry of Defence, it was disclosed yesterday that Mr Blair himself chaired crisis meetings in No 10 on successive days after it was revealed that the scientist could be the source of Mr Gilligan's "sexing-up" claims on Radio 4's Today programme. Documents produced at the hearing revealed that Downing Street played a central role in drafting a press statement by the MoD announcing that an unnamed official had admitted meeting Mr Gilligan in a hotel in central London.

As a further indication of Mr Blair's difficulties in rebuilding public confidence, a poll by ICM published in today's Guardian revealed that only six per cent of people believe that the Government is more trustworthy than the BBC. Half of those polled also believed the Government had deliberately embellished the dossier to strengthen its case for the war.

5 SEPT E-MAIL

This memo to Jonathan Powell from Alastair Campbell makes clear that the very first draft of the Iraq dossier was not strong enough. The phrase "substantial rewrite" shows that Mr Campbell had agreed that John Scarlett, the chairman of the Joint Intelligence Committee, and Julian Miller, head of the JIC assessment staff, should come up with a new version. The e-mail also suggests No 10 wanted "real intelligence". This would explain why the 45-minute claim was seized on so eagerly.

17 SEPT E-MAIL

Mr Powell's description of the dossier as "convincing for those who are prepared to be convinced" is extraordinary, and betrays the level of doubt within the Government. He states that the Government should make clear it has no evidence that Iraq is an "imminent threat".

THE DOSSIER

Published on 24 September, Mr Blair's own phrase, "current and serious threat", led MPs and the public to believe that Saddam should be dealt with urgently. But this contradicts Mr Powell's e-mail advice of only a week earlier. Presenting the 45-minute claim in his foreword as a fact suggests the dossier was hardened up, despite the qualms of some defence intelligence staff officers.

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/story.jsp?story=435148

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CIA Accused Of Bank Heist

Shortly before U.S. forces began streaming across the Iraqi border, commencing Persian Gulf War II, the CIA and the Department of Defense, with a little help from Israel and some Europeans, pulled off a massive bank heist in Iraq to the tune of several billion dollars.

Exclusive to American Free Press

By Gordon Thomas

The CIA and the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) are accused by International Currency Review, the London-based journal, of mounting a joint ultra-secret operation to electronically remove an estimated $10 billion out of the Iraqi Central Bank hours before the start of Persian Gulf War II. The whereabouts of the money is not known.

“We believe it is in a secret CIA fund which will be used to mount further special services operations, such as tracking down Saddam Hussein,†said the Review’s publisher, Christopher Story.

Story is a former financial advisor to Lady Thatcher when she was Britain’s prime minister. In the past 10 years, he has testified before several congressional committees dealing with financial scandals.

DIA coordinates all intelligence for the Joint Chiefs of Staff. It is headquartered in the Pentagon.

The report is titled “The Great Robbery of the Central Bank of Iraq.†It has been sent to finance ministers of leading nations, the World Bank, the Bank of England and heads of all other major banks.

The report is bound to cause huge embarrassment to President Bush after he signed an executive order on March 23, ordering a worldwide hunt for the hidden assets of Saddam Hussein and his family.

The Review claims that using skilled hackers recruited by the DIA and key Iraqi bank officials who had been bribed to provide secret access codes to the Central Bank’s accounts for Saddam Hussein and his family, the money was transferred out of the bank in a high-tech operation.

According to the General Accounting Office (GAO), the investigative agency of Congress, Saddam was estimated to have accumulated “$6.6 billion between 1997 and 2000 from illegal oil smuggling and from illicit deals connected with the United Nations oil for food program.â€

But a substantial portion of that money may have been lifted by the secret CIA/DIA operation.

The operation, claims the Review, was masterminded by the CIA/DIA out of a military facility, Redstone Arsenal, in Alabama. It is the base for U.S. Special Ser vices.

“The money was laundered through a number of CIA controlled accounts, including some held in the Discount Bank of Israel, Credit Suisse in Switzerland and the Dresdner Bank in Germany,†said Story.

He confirmed that Germany’s secret service Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND) is checking with the major German banks on electronic transfers, which could match the $10 billion.

The Review states in its 25-page report that it had questioned a key member of the operation. She is identified as “Nelda Rogers, a debriefing officer with the Defense Intelligence Agency.â€

“She was in Germany last year when American intelligence officials were devising covert operations ahead of the long-planned conflict. She has revealed that a covert operation targeting the Central Bank of Iraq took place prior to and during the war. The operatives involved were military ‘black operations’ personnel brought into service for this purpose,†said Story.

The Review claims that Rogers and a team of ten DIA operatives were financed through the U.S. Department of Agriculture. They were supported by CIA agents in Iraq.

“In all, 100 people were involved in the operation,†says the report. “The Department of Agriculture has been consistently used to hide payments for U.S. covert operations,†claimed Story, whose headquarters are close to Whitehall.

The Review states: “The U.S. Department of Agriculture is used as a paymaster for certain DIA ‘black operations’ because it has traditionally remained unscrutinized.â€

“Like the Federal Reserve Board and the U.S. Treasury’s secret Exchange Stabilization Fund, the Department of Agriculture is yet another federal agency which benefits from a special exemption from rigorous auditing by the General Accounting Office.â€

The Review also states it has testimony from Rogers that the operation was designed to “purloin the Iraq Central Bank’s assets ahead of the arrival of U.S. troops in Baghdad. This suggests that the operation was designed for a nefarious purpose, rather than to help use it for the rebuilding of Iraq.â€

After interviewing Rogers and “a number of U.S. intelligence operatives,†Story confirmed he received three warnings to stop his investigation.

“I was told that 19 people are very dead as a result of trying to cover what you are exposing,†Story wrote in an editorial in the Review.

The Review costs $475 a copy and is one of a small group of titles that Story publishes on financial intelligence for the world banking community.

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Neo-Cons Gone Wild

By B. Rehak

Column Left.com

8-20-03

LOS ANGELES -- Thank heavens George W. Bush is a Compassionate Conservative.' What if we'd actually screwed up and gotten the other kind?

You know, that uptight hypocritical self-righteous HUAC/Watergate/Iran-Contra Precious Bodily Fluids' bunch with the bitter religious friends who see a few witch dunkings and an occasional holy war as good for the national soul?

The ultra-rich, cynical types who know that sex sells but fear gets you re-elected? The sort to whom a free election' is just another form of hostile corporate takeover? The kind who'll proudly photo-op with our brave troops on Fox News while screwing them out of their pay raise?

Those Conservatives?

Wow, we're damned lucky we got the Compassionate ones...

If we'd got that other bunch to run the country they'd probably have us in a trumped up war by now as their rich corporate buddies looted the national treasure.

Nothing like that going on here...relax, no problem...everything is fair and balanced.

Ever notice nobody ever had to run as a Compassionate Liberal?'

Fortunately for all of us, just after 9/11, Mr. Bush and Congress quietly passed the "Lying S.O.B. Act." This little-understood legislation, approved by voice vote in the dark of night, assures the President and his men full latitude in their "War on Reality."

For generations the Republicans have said the only thing wrong with America is all those pesky Liberal reporters and their stupid, disloyal questions. Now they don't even have to cross their fingers behind them as they make up an answer.

The Bush folks stand ready on a minute's notice to boldly go on national TV and deny anything that actually happened if it could hurt their President's approval rating. They imply this is all God's work, but when you strip away all the flag waving and holy rolling, they're pretty much just like all con men, but with deployed troops.

To the Bush people, Crisis Management' isn't about dealing with the actual crisis, but knowing how to carefully grab the media and shape public indifference to avoid taking the blame. So far it's been almost a complete success.

A little thing like the truth will never get in the way of Mr. Bush's second term.

When a child lies, it's called a fib. When a teen lies, it's called growing pains. When a grownup lies it's called...a lie.

When the Bush Administration lies, it's called policy.'

The Bush folks actually work for the American people, but they reject all oversight. Mr. Bush won't duscuss what he was told about terrorism leading up to 9/11 and why he didn't prevent it. Mr. Cheney has gone to court to hide details of meetings with his Oil Patch friends just before the Towers fell.

Mr. Rumsfeld won't talk about anything he said before ten minutes ago. The Reverend Mr. Ashcroft is going on the road to demand an even stronger USA Patriot Act, but won't discuss Justice Dept. failures in the pre-9/11 era, or questionable moves since that may invalidate future terror prosecutions.

The new Bush redacted version of the US Constitution will fit on a postage stamp.

The pursuit of happiness' will be downgraded to a chance to watch its limo speed by on the way to a Bohemian Grove cookout. If you never heard of the Bohemian Grove, or the Skull and Bones, then you probably still think we're a nation of laws. In America today, some animals are more equal than others. Big Money can do that for you.

Success for today's neo-conservatives is all about appearing upbeat.'

The war is a disaster, but Mr. Bush is upbeat. The economy and unemployment suck, but Mr. Bush is upbeat. His poll numbers are tanking, but Mr. Bush is upbeat. The 9/11 terrorists he promised to catch are free and coming back, but Mr. Bush is upbeat.

To listen to him you'd think he wasn't actually involved at all. Perhaps he's not.

Mr. Bush is the latest in a string of Republican "Photo-Presidents." Mr. Nixon was the last guy clearly in command, and his people dutifully followed him off the Watergate cliff, like grateful lemmings in grey suits. Mr. Ford, Mr. Reagan, Bushes 41 and 43 clearly are just front men, and all have been fully staffed,' which is wonkspeak for committee leadership.' Imagine ten shady characters actually calling the shots backstage. They have the combined net worth of South America, and the combined IQ of Dan Quayle.

Everybody hailed the unique Reagan Style' of White House management, but then we all woke up one morning in 1987 to discover the Gipper was just a nice old actor and some oddball Marine Lt. Colonel was actually in charge of our failed US foreign policy. Bush 41 was out of that loop.' Bush 43 has the spark and vitality of a man who lets others do his worrying. Who these secret people' are and what they said and did in his name in this tortured year will doubtless be the subject of a lot of future legalities.

Mr. Bush is bullish on America. Mr. Bush's whole team is just full of bullish.

Nobody is more bullish on Iraq than its ruling tribune, L. Paul Bremer, III.

To listen to him you have to wonder if he's in the same Baghdad they talk about on the news. Mr. Bremer's Iraq is right on track and headed to glory.

He runs something called the Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA).

You can visit his web site at: http://cpa-iraq.org/. It too is very upbeat, like if the Junior Chamber of Commerce had a field office in Hell. All bullish, all the time! Fair and balanced. Fair and balanced.

It was a just another typical Summer week in Baghdad for Mr. Bremer. It's a balmy 122 degrees in the shade at noon, and the living and dying are easy.

The new 950 km-long Iraq Oil Pipeline to Turkey opened for business last week, then some untidy local folks blew it up twice on Friday near Baiji, 200 km northeast of Baghdad and cut off the vital flow of Iraqi oil profits to Halliburton. Some other upset folks also reportedly hit a major fresh water main in Baghdad on Sunday that created an instant urban swimming hole. Over 300,000 Iraqis are now without water for a second day.

Death continued to claim US troops in ones and twos. Mr. Bremer dismisses those behind the violence as upset former Saddam supporters.' How he determines this is not clear. In the US, highly decorated military vets and the parents of troops serving in Iraq have joined to call for the kids to be brought home. Letters from the kids themselves reportedly tell of shortages, limited water rations, and growing discontent.

Mr. Rumsfeld's War on the Cheap' concept lies broken in the blowing sand.

Reuters reports their respected videographer, Mazen Dana, 43, was shot dead Sunday by US troops outside Baghdad's Abu Ghurayb prison after a mortar attack. Journalists on scene accused the troops of behaving in a "crazy" and negligent fashion. The Pentagon said Mr. Dana's small video camera was mistaken for a grenade launcher. Dana was the 18th journalist to die covering the war. He leaves a wife and four kids.

Mr. Bremer seems well equipped for his Iraq mission and comes from over a decade at Kissinger Associates, the shadowy despot repair firm headed by Henry Kissinger, Mr. Nixon's former Secretary of State. Mr. Kissinger and his people never met a ruthless dictator they didn't like, and couldn't help, for a price.

When the elderly Butchers of Tiananmen Square realized their use of tanks and machine guns on unarmed students in 1989 wasn't playing well in the world press, they reportedly hired Henry the K' and his people even before all the blood had dried.

Traditionally, a spin doctor' attempts to put the best public face on a bad situation, but Mr. Bremer is trained to take obfuscation and dissembly to a point that alters the atomic weight of reality until it can be more easily digested. If the Manson Family had hired Kissinger they'd not only be out of jail, they'd have their own hit cable talk show.

Writing political satire used to be a noble calling. You read the news, twisted a notion beyond reason, and concocted an implausible ditty. The humor was in the absurdity.

Lately, no matter what crackpot scheme you dream up, you discover the Bush people have already been there. Bombastic folly, abject stupidity, and vacant hubris are hard to send up, but as a national agenda they seem to be working for the Republicans. They practically invented Unrealpolitik.

Consider Mr. Bush and the environment. Depending on rich oil men to preserve America's wild lands is like hiring a pedophile to babysit your kids. Mr. Bush still doesn't believe Global Warming exists. The Republicans have stalled meaningful energy legislation for years as they tie it to unnecessary drilling in the pristine Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. They skipped mentioning that when the lights went out in the North East last week. To the Bush people, Pristine' simply means -- we haven't drilled there yet...

Remember when we were all sure Mr. Bush's term would be a pale copy of his father's presidency? It's playing more like "Herbert Hoover II," as Mr. Bush puts us all in hock and gives into the wiles of that eternal temptress, Rosy Scenario. The Republicans seem convinced America needs a good bankrupting -- financially and morally.

The Bush folks talk constantly about their values and faith in the Almighty. Indeed, they all seem to have accepted Bechtel as their personal Savior.

Whatever your views, this is going to be the most critical election in US history, and in the 63 weeks until November 2, 2004, some glaring questions arise:

What did the President know, and when was he told to forget he knew it?

Can we be governed by honest people who aren't corporate bag men?

Why are we in a bottomless Iraqi holy war the whole World tried to tell us not to start?

Why do the most petty evangelical holymen' get to vet everything Mr. Bush does?

Most importantly, why can't we have a chief executive who can clearly express a complete thought without reading from a card?

The people behind Mr. Bush used to be called the lunatic fringe.' Now, they're the lunatic middle.

They'll continue to bleed us of our rights and national wealth until we stop them decisively at the ballot box.

Their smarmy combination of strident greed and pious hypocrisy has rattled down through the ages. History hasn't taught us yet how to completely prevent them rising again, but it has shown us that what they propose never really works, especially in a democracy...

The wild card in all this is still Mr. Cheney, who many believe is actually running the show. If Americans underestimate his power, then they don't Dick.

The Republicans are really counting on that...

_______________________________________________________ ________

B. Rehak is a writer in California, and can be reached via www.columnleft.com

Copyright © 1994-2003 www.columnleft.com All Rights Reserved

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Another US War Crime?

Iraqi Cities 'Hot' With DU

By Sara Flounders

Workers World Newspaper

8-17-03

Has U.S. use of depleted-uranium weapons turned Iraq into a radioactive danger area for both Iraqis and occupation troops?

This question has already had serious consequences. In hot spots in downtown Baghdad, reporters have measured radiation levels that are 1,000 to 1,900 times higher than normal background radiation levels.

It has also opened a debate in the Netherlands parliament and media as 1,100 Dutch troops in Kuwait prepare to enter Iraq as part of the U.S./British-led occupation forces. The Dutch are concerned about the danger of radioactive poisoning and radiation sickness in Iraq.

Washington has assured the Dutch government that it used no DU weapons near Al-Samawah, the town where Dutch troops will be stationed. But Dutch journalists and anti-war forces have already found holes in the U.S. stories, according to an article on the Radio Free Europe website.

DU-caused radiation had already raised alarms in Europe after studies showed increased rates of cancers, respiratory ailments and other disabilities of occupation troops from NATO countries stationed in Bosnia, Kosovo and Afghanistan.

In general, the health and environmental dangers of weapons made with DU radioactive waste have received far more attention in Europe than in the U.S.

In this year's war on Iraq, the Pentagon used its radioactive arsenal mainly in the urban centers, rather than in desert battlefields as in 1991. Many hundreds of thousands of Iraqi people and U.S. soldiers, along with British, Polish, Japanese and Dutch soldiers sent to join the occupation, will suffer the consequences. The real extent of injuries, chronic illness, long-term disabilities and genetic birth defects won't be apparent for five to 10 years.

By now, half of all the 697,000 U.S. soldiers involved in the 1991 war have reported serious illnesses. According to the American Gulf War Veterans Association, more than 30 percent of these soldiers are chronically ill and are receiving disability benefits from the Veterans Administration. Such a high occurrence of various symptoms has led to the illnesses being named Gulf War Syndrome.

This number of disabled veterans is shockingly high. Most are in their mid-thirties and should be in the prime of health. Before sending troops to the Gulf region, the military had already sifted out those with disabilities or chronic health problems from asthma, diabetes, heart conditions, cancers and birth defects.

A long-term problem The impact of tons of radioactive waste polluting major urban centers may seem a distant problem to Iraqis now trying to survive in the chaos of military occupation. They must cope with power outages during the intense heat of summer, door-to-door searches, arbitrary arrests, civilians routinely shot at roadblocks, outbreaks of cholera and dysentery from untreated water, untreated sewage and uncollected garbage, more than half the work force unemployed, and a lack of food--which before the war was distributed by the Baathist regime.

But along with these current threats are long-range problems. Around the world a growing number of scientific organizations and studies have linked Gulf War Syndrome and the high rate of assorted and mysterious sicknesses to radiation poisoning from weapons made with depleted uranium.

Scott Peterson, a staff writer for the Christian Science Moni tor, reported on May 15 about taking Geiger counter readings at several sites in Baghdad. Near the Republican Palace where U.S. troops stood guard and over 1,000 employees walked in and out of the building, his radiation readings were the "hottest" in Iraq, at nearly 1,900 times background radiation levels. Spent shell casings still littered the ground.

At a roadside vegetable stand selling fresh bunches of parsley, mint and onions outside Baghdad, children played on a burnt-out Iraqi tank. The reporter's Geiger counter registered nearly 1,000 times normal background radiation. The U.S. uses armor-piercing shells coated with DU to destroy tanks.

The Aug. 4 Seattle Post Intelligencer reported elevated radiation levels at six sites from Basra to Baghdad. One destroyed tank near Baghdad had 1,500 times the normal background radiation. "The Pentagon and the United Nations estimate that the U.S. and Britain used 1,100 to 2,200 tons of armor-piercing shells made of depleted uranium during attacks on Iraq in March and April--far more than the 375 tons used in the 1991 Gulf War," wrote the Post Intelligencer.

The Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center in Seattle analyzed swabs from bullet holes in Iraqi tanks and confirmed elevated radiation levels.

Radioactive and toxic The extremely dense DU shells easily penetrate steel armor and burn on impact. The fire releases microscopic, radioactive and toxic dust particles of uranium oxide that travel with the wind and can be inhaled or ingested. They also spread contamination by seeping into the land and water.

In the human body, DU may cause harm to the internal organs due both to its chemical toxicity as a heavy metal and its release of radiation.

An otherwise useless by-product of the uranium-enrichment process, DU is attractive to military contractors because it is so cheap, often offered for free by the government.

According to the Uranium Medical Research Center, the toxic and radiological effects of uranium contamination may weaken the immune system. They may cause acute respiratory conditions like pneumonia, flu-like symptoms and severe coughs, renal or gastrointestinal illnesses.

Dr. Asaf Durakovic of UMRC explains that the initial symptoms will be mostly neurological, showing up as headaches, weakness, dizziness and muscle fatigue. The long-term effects are cancers and other radiation-related illnesses, such as chronic fatigue syndrome, joint and muscle pain, rashes, neurological and/or nerve damage, mood disturbances, infections, lung and kidney damage, vision problems, auto-immune deficiencies and severe skin conditions. It also causes increases in miscarriages, maternal mortality and genetic birth defects.

For years the government described Gulf War Syndrome as a post-traumatic stress disorder. It was labeled a psychological problem or simply dismissed as mysterious unrelated ailments. In this same way the Pentagon and the Veterans Administration treated the health problems of Vietnam vets suffering from Agent Orange poisoning.

The cover-up The U.S. government denies that DU weapons can cause sickness. But before the first Gulf War, where DU weapons were used extensively, the Pentagon's own internal reports warned that the radiation and heavy metal of DU weapons could cause kidney, lung and liver damage and increased rates of cancer.

Ignoring these dangers, the Pentagon went on to use these weapons, which gave it a big advantage in tank battles. But it denied publicly that DU use was related to the enormously high rate of sicknesses among GIs following the war.

Today the Pentagon plays an even more duplicitous role. It continues to assert that there are no "known" health problems associated with DU. But Army training manuals require anyone who comes within 75 feet of any DU-contaminated equipment or terrain to wear respiratory and skin protection.

The manuals say that "contamination will make food and water unsafe for consumption." According to the Army Environmental Policy Institute, holding a spent DU round exposes a person to about 200 rems per hour, or twice the annual radiation exposure limit.

This March and April U.S. and British forces fired hundreds of thousands of DU rounds in dense urban areas. Superfine uranium oxide particles were blown about in dust storms. Yet the Pentagon refuses to track, report or mark off where DU was fired. There is no way Iraqis or the occupying soldiers can keep 75 feet away or use respiratory and skin protection in 120-degree heat.

The American Gulf War Veterans Association (AGWVA) reports that suffering veterans are receiving little, if any, medical treatment for their illnesses. "Whenever veterans become ill, the term 'mystery illness' seems to be the first and often the only diagnosis that is ever made. Veterans are then left to fend for themselves, sick and unable to work, with little hope of a normal life again."

Iraq's National Ministry of Health organized two international conferences to present data on the relationship between the high incidence of cancer and the use of DU weapons. It produced detailed epidemiological reports and statistical studies. This data showed a six-fold increase in breast cancer, a five-fold increase in lung cancer and a 16-fold increase in ovarian cancer.

Because of the U.S.-imposed sanctions, Iraqi doctors and scientists were barred from presenting their research papers in most of the world.

Doug Rokke of AGWVA, former head of the U.S. Army DU Project, who is seriously ill with respiratory problems, has been campaigning against the use of DU. Rokke reports that U.S. troops presently in Iraq are already falling sick with a series of Gulf War Syndrome symptoms.

The AGWVA says the Department of Defense has information regarding "mystery" deaths of soldiers in this latest war and the emergence of a mysterious pneumonia that has sickened at least 100 men and women.

U.S. position: no clean-up While the U.K. has admitted that British Challenger tanks expended some 1.9 tons of DU ammunition during major combat operations in Iraq this year, the U.S. has refused to disclose specific information about whether and where it used DU during this yearcampaign. It also is refusing to let a team from the United Nations Environmental Program (UNEP) study the environmental impact of DU contamination in Iraq.

Despite this refusal, it is public knowledge that the U.S. made extensive use of weapons that can fire DU shells. These include the A-10 Warthog tank-buster aircraft with 30-mm cannons that can fire up to 4,200 DU rounds per minute; the AC-130 gunship; the "Apache" helicopter, and Bradley fighting vehicles that fire anti-armor 105-mm to 120-mm tank rounds containing DU.

The U.S. followed the same tactics in the wars in the Balkans. While claiming full cooperation with UNEP's Balkans studies, the Pentagon delayed releasing target locations for 16 months. It gave misleading map information. Then bomb, missile and cluster-bomb targets were excluded. NATO allowed 10 other teams to visit or clean up sites before UNEP inspections started.

Washington refuses to acknowledge DU use anywhere or that it poses any danger. To acknowledge radiation poisoning would immediately raise demands for a cleanup.

According to Alex Kirby, BBC News Online environment correspondent: "The U.S. says it has no plans to remove the debris left over from depleted uranium weapons it is using in Iraq. It says no cleanup is needed, because research shows DU has no long-term effects."

Evidence of DU use But in the information age, the Pentagon can't suppress all the evidence. The Dutch example shows this. Though the U.S. government specifically denied any firing of DU weapons near the city of Al-Samawah, where Dutch troops were to be stationed, a simple Internet search by journalists undid this lie.

The Dutch government, to get a resolution through the parliament to authorize sending troops to Iraq, depicted the Al-Samawah region as a remote, barely inhabited desert where no noteworthy events had occurred.

In actual fact, Al-Samawah is strategically located on the road from Basra to Baghdad, providing access to a bridge over the Euphrates River. On its march to Baghdad, the U.S. Army encountered fierce resistance from Iraqi forces there, according to American officers. This was well covered by their embedded media.

It was more than a week before the town and the road were cleared of all pockets of resistance. Some 112 civilians, most of them inhabitants of Al-Samawah, were killed in battle.

DU ammunition was widely used during this operation. In a widely distributed field message, Sergeant First Class Cooper reported that the weapons systems used by the 3rd Infantry, 7th Cavalry, en route to Al-Samawah and on to Najaf, were performing well, especially the 25-mm DU and 7.62.

Of greater interest to Internet researchers was a letter a young soldier sent home to his parents, which they posted in their church bulletin on the Internet. In the letter E. Pennell, a crew member on a Bradley Fighting Vehicle of the 1st Infantry Battalion, 41st Infantry Regiment, described how his crew fired a 25-mm DU round as they encountered seven Iraqi troops in the town of Al-Samawah.

Pennell's letter has raised concern among groups like the United Federation of Military Personnel, a kind of labor union for Dutch troops. It fears that its members might be at risk of contracting cancer or other diseases because of exposure to DU ammunition.

Resistance: the only solution Officers and politicians in imperialist countries have always treated rank-and-file soldiers as cannon fodder. These young lives are totally expendable. The occupied or colonized people are not counted at all.

As a global movement against imperialist wars grew over the past century, military planners made great efforts to hide the true costs of war, especially the human cost. The nearly 60,000 U.S. casualties in the Vietnam War provoked a mighty mass anti-war movement. This time, long before U.S. casualties reached 100 soldiers, the movement to "Bring the Troops Home" had gained momentum.

This new movement must demand a true accounting of the enormous human costs of the war. The impact on the health and future of not only U.S. troops but the millions of people in Iraq must be part of the demand.

A growing international movement must demand full reparations for the Iraqi people. A cleanup of the toxic, radioactive waste is in the interests of all the people of the region. The cost of the war must be calculated in terms of bankrupt social programs here in the U.S. and the health of all the people who were in the region during the war and will be in the years to come.

- Sara Flounders is co-director of the International Action Center and coordinator of the DU Education Project. She is an editor and a contributing author of the book "Metal of Dishonor: Depleted Uranium," and helped produce a video by the same name. The IAC helped organize an international effort to bring the issue of DU to the UN Human Rights Commission in Geneva and helped measure radiation levels in Iraq before the 2003 war.

© Copyright S Flounders 2003 For fair use only/ pour usage Èquitable seulement.

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/FLO308B.html

Comment

From Ani Corné - Italy

8-19-3

Wake Up And Face The Truth!

Reading this highly disturbing article, it seems to me we are nearing more and more hell on earth! Some of you out there might still think you live in civilized times and comfort yourselves with the thought that all those terrible things you see on TV or read in the newspaper every day are far, far away and will never reach you, but this is not so!

The so-called civilized world does not exist. Proof of this is given to us in many ways and more descriptively so by articles such as this one. Sadly, it is not only the United States government that applies these means of deceit when it comes to the use of weapons, it has been and is done by all governments engaging in wars and in profit making through a weapons industry, which never had any qualms about sacrificing life on earth.

But let's take the US as an example. How shameful is the treatment of their soldiers entrusted into their care, men and women, who give their lives for their country. Little do the latter know that they are being sacrificed on the altar of greed by ruthless business men, who call themselves the people's representatives. How utterly despicable is the attitude of these politicians that "forget" their soldiers, once they have served their means, once they are home, rendered sick and disabled through their very own weapons!

"For years the government described Gulf War Syndrome as a post-traumatic stress disorder. It was labeled a psychological problem or simply dismissed as mysterious unrelated ailments. In this same way the Pentagon and the Veterans Administration treated the health problems of Vietnam vets suffering from Agent Orange poisoning."

Again, we see the government's propaganda machinery at work where the health and the well-being of those that defended their country is concerned.

Politicians are a rather ungrateful pack of hyenas, wouldn't you say? And they don't care how much soil they will pollute with their "politics", their dirty wars fought in our name! Nor will they take responsibility for anything they have instigated, caused, wilfully let happen and purposely committed, again in our name! They will go on lying about it and lie unashamedly! The soldiers - their gullible tools - as well as all the civilian victims are paying the price for their lies every time.

"The U.S. says it has no plans to remove the debris left over from depleted uranium weapons it is using in Iraq. It says no cleanup is needed, because research shows DU has no long-term effects."

And while the majority of US citizens still don't want to open their eyes to the atrocities their government is committing "in their name", the number of people opposing this practice of deceit and crime grows. But not fast enough, I fear. For, how long must it take, how much more suffering must we see, must we read about, before the world will stand up as a population to say "NO" to this ruthless pack of criminals? And I mean ALL those amoral "profiteers" all over the world, because this is not a US phenomenon, but the result of infinite greed.... It is the kind of greed a world will breed when it loses its ethical values due to a blind worship of technology and progress without growing at the same speed in morals and responsibility.

Make no mistake: ALL of us are going to pay the price for the vast greed of only a few. We are going to pay with the loss of our freedom, the loss of our lives and with the destruction of this planet. If we let this happen, we will be as guilty as those who caused it in the first place, because we have not hindered them on their destructive path. We also have a responsibility to our children and grand-children and the generations coming after them. If we leave nothing for them, but wars, pollution, suffering and certain death, then indeed we are as bad as those, who seem to care for nothing but the wealth they can acquire and the power they are able to exert for as long as they walk this earth.

Make no mistake: They won't be the ones suffering from illness and poverty and they couldn't care less even about their own children and grand-children. Their actions confirm this.

We should be more afraid of the consequences, if we don't stop them , rather than being afraid of opening our eyes to their doings.

Ani Corné

Writer/Italy

[breakbeatz2]

these people are speaking out agianst US help because they are brainwashed and uneducated and STILL scared of Sadamm Hussein.

remember the 100% vote in favor of Hussein?

that type of control doesnt dissapear overnight!

[sassa]

yeah. that's why they're against the US. sure.

[breakbeatz2]

terrorists will ensure that Iraq stays a shithole because its in their interests to do so. the people are too stupid to realize who are thir friends and enemies. speak to some educated Iraqis, none of whom are in Iraq, and see what they say.

[alivak]

sassa,

I dont know who u are, or what your cause is. I dont post much, but do read a bit of whats written here. I got two degrees and consider myself somewhat informed. I have a law degree from one of the most liberal universities in America where debating was fun, sometimes out of control. It always is when different points of view are discussed

I must say however that you are absolutely amazing when it comes to your writings or posting of articles from various organizations. I cannot figure out why you would post your rants on clubplanet, you should be posting on takebackthemedia.com which believes that Bush and his family are Nazis, or post on moveon.org which is also quite "progressive" because you have absolutely no place in the mainstream.

For example, 20 Israel's were slaughtered and u find no fault with the bomber but blame Israeli occupation. You compare Israel retaliating and killing leaders of Hamas and razing homes of suicide bombers as the equivalent of a bus bombing of innocent civilians. I read how you mentioned you are from Israel, either you are self-hating Jew and there are many of them, or an Israeli Arab which would explain a lot.

Your hatred for anything dealing with the right is so transparent its not worth responding too. You are no better then Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell were when Clinton was in office and they accussed him of rape and murder. Its clear your intelligent but your rants and constant posting of the same crap makes it very hard to take anything you say seriously.

Also, I am from Communist Russia, came here when I was young and no matter who is in office, or what the situation is...this will always be the best country in the world. It is the only place that allows you to do what you want and how you want it. You trash this government and country out of complete ignorance. You have no idea what it is like to live under a dictatorship or similar regimes. No education from any school can tell you otherwise. There is nothing close in comparison. This by far is the greatest nation.

Oh and one last thing, don't ever think you know more then anyone else...because what you have written, its obvious that you dont.

Alex

[breakbeatz2]

Originally posted by alivak

sassa,

I dont know who u are, or what your cause is. I dont post much, but do read a bit of whats written here. I got two degrees and consider myself somewhat informed. I have a law degree from one of the most liberal universities in America where debating was fun, sometimes out of control. It always is when different points of view are discussed

I must say however that you are absolutely amazing when it comes to your writings or posting of articles from various organizations. I cannot figure out why you would post your rants on clubplanet, you should be posting on takebackthemedia.com which believes that Bush and his family are Nazis, or post on moveon.org which is also quite "progressive" because you have absolutely no place in the mainstream.

For example, 20 Israel's were slaughtered and u find no fault with the bomber but blame Israeli occupation. You compare Israel retaliating and killing leaders of Hamas and razing homes of suicide bombers as the equivalent of a bus bombing of innocent civilians. I read how you mentioned you are from Israel, either you are self-hating Jew and there are many of them, or an Israeli Arab which would explain a lot.

Your hatred for anything dealing with the right is so transparent its not worth responding too. You are no better then Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell were when Clinton was in office and they accussed him of rape and murder. Its clear your intelligent but your rants and constant posting of the same crap makes it very hard to take anything you say seriously.

Also, I am from Communist Russia, came here when I was young and no matter who is in office, or what the situation is...this will always be the best country in the world. It is the only place that allows you to do what you want and how you want it. You trash this government and country out of complete ignorance. You have no idea what it is like to live under a dictatorship or similar regimes. No education from any school can tell you otherwise. There is nothing close in comparison. This by far is the greatest nation.

Oh and one last thing, don't ever think you know more then anyone else...because what you have written, its obvious that you dont.

Alex

i'm from russia too came here from Kiev in 1989

you in nyc?

[alivak]

I came in 1979 and do live in NYC. I came from Lvov, its now Lvev. Thats where they had that tragic air show crash last year when a plane flew into a crowd and killed about 100 people

[breakbeatz2]

Originally posted by alivak

I came in 1979 and do live in NYC. I came from Lvov, its now Lvev. Thats where they had that tragic air show crash last year when a plane flew into a crowd and killed about 100 people

of course i know Lvov wasnt that far from kiev, and a couple of my good friends are from there.

[sassa]

Originally posted by alivak

sassa,

I dont know who u are, or what your cause is. I dont post much, but do read a bit of whats written here. I got two degrees and consider myself somewhat informed. I have a law degree from one of the most liberal universities in America where debating was fun, sometimes out of control. It always is when different points of view are discussed

I must say however that you are absolutely amazing when it comes to your writings or posting of articles from various organizations. I cannot figure out why you would post your rants on clubplanet, you should be posting on takebackthemedia.com which believes that Bush and his family are Nazis, or post on moveon.org which is also quite "progressive" because you have absolutely no place in the mainstream.

For example, 20 Israel's were slaughtered and u find no fault with the bomber but blame Israeli occupation. You compare Israel retaliating and killing leaders of Hamas and razing homes of suicide bombers as the equivalent of a bus bombing of innocent civilians. I read how you mentioned you are from Israel, either you are self-hating Jew and there are many of them, or an Israeli Arab which would explain a lot.

Your hatred for anything dealing with the right is so transparent its not worth responding too. You are no better then Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell were when Clinton was in office and they accussed him of rape and murder. Its clear your intelligent but your rants and constant posting of the same crap makes it very hard to take anything you say seriously.

Also, I am from Communist Russia, came here when I was young and no matter who is in office, or what the situation is...this will always be the best country in the world. It is the only place that allows you to do what you want and how you want it. You trash this government and country out of complete ignorance. You have no idea what it is like to live under a dictatorship or similar regimes. No education from any school can tell you otherwise. There is nothing close in comparison. This by far is the greatest nation.

Oh and one last thing, don't ever think you know more then anyone else...because what you have written, its obvious that you dont.

Alex

first of all, alex, i know what i know from various sources. i admit i might have been out of line with that comment, but it was written in the heat of the moment. second, you seem to think that because you have a law degree and come from mother russia, you are a good judge of what is wrong and right. the bottom line is that we all have our opinions and views of what we think is righteous and not. while i don't think murder is a good thing, i also understand the desparateness behind these suicide bombers' actions. they do not have support from even their so-called arab brothers, who use their case as an excuse at times to justify their own pathetic actions. they are also living under extremely horrible and poor conditions, which can extremely mar a person's psychological makeup. little wonder they resort to the crimes they do. that is what i can understand from them. the israeli zionists, on the other hand, have a way more stable base to work with. money (BILLIONS OF DOLLARS) from organizations all around the world, and governments, as well as wealthy individuals. compare that with the palestinians' case and tell me if that is equal or not.

p.s. not that this should matter or not, but i am not an israeli arab or jewish. so before you use race and religion as a factor, you should know that. :rolleyes:

that is wrong.

[alivak]

actually i am a good judge of what right and wrong - and i am sorry to say that you do not have a monoploy on that issue. Dont you hate it when people give you that holier then thou routine . Sound familiar? cause that is all you do in your arguements.

So basically you are saying that Zionists are too blame because they stick with their people and support the land and religion, but Arabs and Muslims who could care less about the Palestinians except for their mutual hatred of Israel get no blame whatsoever. Nice one.

Thank God they have billions because there would be no Israel if it wasnt for that. Saudi's and all the those kingdoms have 10x the amount and do squat for these people, palestinians are considered rats to them. And again, this is somehow the Zionists fault.

Coming from mother Russian taught me a lesson of what it is like being communist and rule and life in a dictatorship. That is why i can appreciate the freedom I have now, unlike some people who take it for granted and bitch about what they dont have instead of what they do have.

[alivak]

i missed your last sentence, and I apologize for sterotyping you. I just read in one of your posts that you were in Israel or lived there, not sure. Again, sorry.

[igloo]

Wow Sassa, you are really getting you shit shoved back up your ass....this of course is a daily occurrence, but this is a fresh group that quickly recognized you for what you are.....a clown

[sassa]

Originally posted by alivak

actually i am a good judge of what right and wrong - and i am sorry to say that you do not have a monoploy on that issue. Dont you hate it when people give you that holier then thou routine . Sound familiar? cause that is all you do in your arguements.

So basically you are saying that Zionists are too blame because they stick with their people and support the land and religion, but Arabs and Muslims who could care less about the Palestinians except for their mutual hatred of Israel get no blame whatsoever. Nice one.

Thank God they have billions because there would be no Israel if it wasnt for that. Saudi's and all the those kingdoms have 10x the amount and do squat for these people, palestinians are considered rats to them. And again, this is somehow the Zionists fault.

Coming from mother Russian taught me a lesson of what it is like being communist and rule and life in a dictatorship. That is why i can appreciate the freedom I have now, unlike some people who take it for granted and bitch about what they dont have instead of what they do have.

so you are justifying zionist violence. or not? i love how you twisted my words to fit your retorts.

if you assume i have a holier than thou attitude, that is your problem, not mine. if you haven't noticed, this is not a live debate, therefore, you cannot know for sure how i respond. as for your first sentence, i do not know nor really care if you think that you know what is being a good judge or right and wrong.

again, i have my reasons for thinking the way i do from the things i have seen, researched, studied, learned, experienced, and discussed. i have lived in israel, and i am a citizen of that state.

as for the russia thing, i have also lived in russia. and i know what living there was like as well. so what. russia now is nothing but a big mafia state, sad to see how most investment is mainly in the moscow region. i can go on for hours and russia also, but i choose not to, for it if off topic.

now, are you going to tell me i have a holier than thou attitude, when you are projecting one yourself? please. don't be a hypocrite.

[alivak]

U just provide my whole point...and this is why its impossible to talk to people like you. I wasnt projecting one, i was giving an example of what you do so well.

You just gave an "i know everything about russia, israel and the world" answer. You roll your eyes, classy move...and your very easily aggrivated, you dont need a live conversation to experience that. I wrote what i wrote, i am not going to debate with someone that know everything about everything, i am not going to get into i know more then you bullshit argument. I have my sources as well, its called Life, not what someone told me and what i heard. I am very secure within my self and what i know. I dont need to prove anything all the time. You are always trying to prove something, and everyone is always wrong but you. Its an amazing thing to watch and read. Because for someone who is as smart as you are, you lose credibility really quick when you do that, and everything gets lost in the screaming.

And yes i am all for defense of a nation and people. 100%

[sassa]

Originally posted by igloo

Wow Sassa, you are really getting you shit shoved back up your ass....this of course is a daily occurrence, but this is a fresh group that quickly recognized you for what you are.....a clown

oh my...it never ends...the parrot .... :laugh:

[sassa]

Originally posted by alivak

U just provide my whole point...and this is why its impossible to talk to people like you. I wasnt projecting one, i was giving an example of what you do so well.

You just gave an "i know everything about russia, israel and the world" answer. You roll your eyes, classy move...and your very easily aggrivated, you dont need a live conversation to experience that. I wrote what i wrote, i am not going to debate with someone that know everything about everything, i am not going to get into i know more then you bullshit argument. I have my sources as well, its called Life, not what someone told me and what i heard. I am very secure within my self and what i know. I dont need to prove anything all the time. You are always trying to prove something, and everyone is always wrong but you. Its an amazing thing to watch and read. Because for someone who is as smart as you are, you lose credibility really quick when you do that, and everything gets lost in the screaming.

And yes i am all for defense of a nation and people. 100%

wow. that's so sad that you got this from what i wrote. if you believe this, then you are really not as smart as you try to make yourself out to be.

i now see that you do not need an advanced degree to be very intelligent. good show.

[alivak]

yea...you're not condescending or anything...the more u yap, the sillier you sound. Just keep posting your articles that you think will change the world but that make u look like a complete wack job and just keep quiet. U are the last person i need to prove anything to. I am secure within myself and dont need to change or prove anything to anyone...unlike yourself who is always trying to proof something. Its 10 AM have you posted your 15 articles against Israel and the US yet?

I started this because of an observation, but u obviously need the last word so go ahead. I am not going to sit and respond to you. Obviously you need a life or else you would not have over 10,000 posts on a party site and there is no way i can keep up with you. So i will see u sometime on TV getting your head cracked by a cop during a WTO protest or some other anarchist riots that are staged a couple of times a year. Have fun.

Oh and yes, my degrees means shit, my life experience means something, and no anti-everything egotistical ass who thinks she has "sources" and who knows everything can change that. Dont bother responding cause i can care less what u have to say. Just have you bitch brawls with Igloo and everyone else who you have managed to piss off here.

[sassa]

Originally posted by alivak

yea...you're not condescending or anything...the more u yap, the sillier you sound. Just keep posting your articles that you think will change the world but that make u look like a complete wack job and just keep quiet. U are the last person i need to prove anything to. I am secure within myself and dont need to change or prove anything to anyone...unlike yourself who is always trying to proof something. Its 10 AM have you posted your 15 articles against Israel and the US yet?

I started this because of an observation, but u obviously need the last word so go ahead. I am not going to sit and respond to you. Obviously you need a life or else you would not have over 10,000 posts on a party site and there is no way i can keep up with you. So i will see u sometime on TV getting your head cracked by a cop during a WTO protest or some other anarchist riots that are staged a couple of times a year. Have fun.

Oh and yes, my degrees means shit, my life experience means something, and no anti-everything egotistical ass who thinks she has "sources" and who knows everything can change that. Dont bother responding cause i can care less what u have to say. Just have you bitch brawls with Igloo and everyone else who you have managed to piss off here.

:laugh: whatever you say.

[breakbeatz2]

Originally posted by alivak

yea...you're not condescending or anything...the more u yap, the sillier you sound. Just keep posting your articles that you think will change the world but that make u look like a complete wack job and just keep quiet. U are the last person i need to prove anything to. I am secure within myself and dont need to change or prove anything to anyone...unlike yourself who is always trying to proof something. Its 10 AM have you posted your 15 articles against Israel and the US yet?

I started this because of an observation, but u obviously need the last word so go ahead. I am not going to sit and respond to you. Obviously you need a life or else you would not have over 10,000 posts on a party site and there is no way i can keep up with you. So i will see u sometime on TV getting your head cracked by a cop during a WTO protest or some other anarchist riots that are staged a couple of times a year. Have fun.

Oh and yes, my degrees means shit, my life experience means something, and no anti-everything egotistical ass who thinks she has "sources" and who knows everything can change that. Dont bother responding cause i can care less what u have to say. Just have you bitch brawls with Igloo and everyone else who you have managed to piss off here.

werd

[seximofo2k]

Not gonna bash u sassa but u do get out of control with some of the things u post and say..........

[sassa]

Originally posted by seximofo2k

Not gonna bash u sassa but u do get out of control with some of the things u post and say..........

if you believe that. that's fine. i don't really care what anyone thinks. what i do care about is that people should stick to the topics. enough of the insulting. it starts, people like igloo make it a daily thing, and then it gets us nowhere. fine if you think i'm delusional and problematic. just get that out of your system by sending me a private message, not here. thank you.