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Originally posted by vixenfoxxy

Yes, because I'm sure that all Georgetown's International Law Students (there's 250 of us... in the world) are so naive :blank:

The greatest danger to US is... Bush. His policies have violated international law in ways so clear that even top international and diplomacy lawyers are at a loss as to how to justify it. Being as how you're obviously so brilliant, why don't you explain to me why you suppose the rest of the world should follow international law if one of its main founders does not? How do you propose to fix the situation if the international law system collapses into anarchy? Why do you think the US is any more justified in using unlawful, violent, subversive tactics than any other nation? Are economics really enough to justify anything and, if they are, why? Not to be offensive but maybe you should leave governance to those of us who are objective and have a clue. Whoever noted that you can't seem to collect a response other than "well i don't have to listen to you because you're silly and a poohead" hit that nail right on the head. If you don't have anything intelligent to say, just move onto any of the other 2 billion mindless threads on this board :aright:

Xpyrate -

I agree with what you're saying on Israel, and what Osama said is, much as I hate to say it, absolutely correct. Fact is, as I noted above, the US carries on and on about being the benevolent world cop and supporting the UN and the international system - but case by case, the US is the biggest abuser of the international system. Now, in strictly restrictionist legal terms, US support of Israel doesn't constitute a breach of neutrality (Nicaragua case ruling by the ICJ supports a strict definition of "armed attack" as defined in article 2(4) of the charter). But let's not kid ourselves - even if that part is cut out, the US has breached countless norms of international law and George Dubya Douche has been the loudest shootin' cowboy of all of them thus far. The sooner he drops dead the sooner the US is safer. :rolleyes:

*waits for smokesum to interject some "you're such a nerd" comment*

Is that youre a intl law student in gtown supposed to impress, or bring credit to your post?? lmfao. I dont find it necessary to list my credentials as a grad of stanford, and harvard law. all that doesnt matter. the rest of your post has some merit to it, but again, a lot of shallow understanding of the situations in REAL LIFE

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Originally posted by babbo

Is that youre a intl law student in gtown supposed to impress, or bring credit to your post?? lmfao. I dont find it necessary to list my credentials as a grad of stanford, and harvard law. all that doesnt matter. the rest of your post has some merit to it, but again, a lot of shallow understanding of the situations in REAL LIFE

Here's the mirror, look in it. I highly doubt a tool like you went to Harvard and Stanford law so that you could sell shoes and claim to speak Italian. Prove it or be off with you. :rolleyes:

Or why not bring up the fact that many Israeli lives were lost in the past 50 years as a result of several wars?

CHRles, the reason I don't feel much sympathy for this statement is that Israel consistently STARTS these wars, and there's no legal allowance for preemtive self-defense. I'm not entirely sure that I agree with that premise - I think Israel definitely had a point in attacking preemtively when Saudi/Egyptian tanks and troops were massing on its borders, but many of the other cases were oh so questionable.

Also, I just want to clarify - I in no way support, respect or otherwise condone Osama Bin Laden or his actions, likewise with his minions and their actions. I think what he's done to so many innocent lives is totally deplorable, I feel that he should be found and punished (though I'm not sure what anyone could possibly do to avenge so many innocent lives lost both here and abroad). To look at things objectively though, the US really does throw its weight around too much, IMHO, and it is no small wonder that other countries view us as ridiculous and in need of a good smacking. This country is like some big, spoiled, unruly brat whose parents have now been eclipsed. As one of my professors said, a superpower is only unbalanceable up until the point in which small states form a coalition strong enough to smack it down. I fear that if Bush and any presidents who follow him continue these yee-haw policies, that fate may become the inevitable.

One more thing - with regard to your comment about Israel being the only democracy in that area - okay, cookie for Israel. But who says that democracy has to be the only way to do things? Don't take this comment the wrong way and imply that I think dictatorships, authoritarian governments, communist regimes etc etc are the way to go - but saying that some other means of governance can effectively and benevolently serve the people, there's no reason to say democracy must be the ultimate goal. No, I don't believe that any of the current non-democratic systems over there have that down - indeed there have been many many violations of human and political rights there as elsewhere, but let's not kid ourselves... democracy ain't always the cake either. Democracies also violate human rights, democracies even violate other *countries'* rights - the US, for example...

Good points though, and well taken.

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Originally posted by babbo

Is that youre a intl law student in gtown supposed to impress, or bring credit to your post?? lmfao. I dont find it necessary to list my credentials as a grad of stanford, and harvard law. all that doesnt matter. the rest of your post has some merit to it, but again, a lot of shallow understanding of the situations in REAL LIFE

You know I keep hearing from you how "unintelligent" this post is or that post is but I have never seen you once post something of any kind of substance or merit. Or is it that you cannot do that so you just critique ours and we'll somehow "respect" your unsubstantiated capacity to comprehend?

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You're right - Turkey is a democracy, but viewed more as part of Europe, not to mention the fact that it's not an Arabic country. Turkey is also one of Israel's strongest allies in the Middle East.

Keep in mind that Israel is also at peace with Egypt and Jordan, and Morocco is also trying to re-establish diplomatic ties with Israel, as are several of the small countries/territories in the Gulf.

Syria and Israel have never been at peace, and Syria isn't exactly hiding the fact that it permits terrorists to train and do business in its country. The US was especially pissed off at Syria during the recent war with Iraq...since Syria tried to side with Sadam and help him out.

Syria is also the country that really controls Lebanon, and that includes the attacks of certain terrorist organizations based out of that country. I will have to hand it to Syria though - it has largly brought peace to Lebanon, and helped end its civial war, when Syrian troops went ito Lebanon in the early 90s. That's why Beirut has been able to slowly return to its former glory days before 1973 (when Lebanon was considered the Switzerland of the Middle East).

I don't know though about the whole Israel starting every war in the region - it didn't start the Iraqi-Iranian war which lasted throughout most of the duration of the 80s. Israel did however fly into Iraq back in the early 80s to detonate Iraq's soon to be finished nuclear facilities...and it may have to go into Iran in the next year or two to do the same - Iran is on its way to become a nuclear power!

There's also a lot of inner conflicts happening within Egypt, Turkey, and now Saudi Arabia. This is the Middle East we're talking about after all. All these countries are afraid of a religious totalatarian takeover similar to what happened in Iran in the late 70s. To be honest with you, even the Jewish extremists in Israel are considered a threat to the more moderate parties. That's why Sharon didn't bring Shas into his government when he was elected.

I know this has been mentioned on this board countless times, but back in 1948 Britian agreed, in part due to UN pressure, to give part of what it called Palestine to the Jews, and part to the local Arabs. The Jews agreed, the local Arabs didn't, and neither did the rest of the Arab world. Keep in mind this is three years after the Holocaust, and that most of the Arab world actually supported Hitler. Anyways, after about a year the Jews won, and many of the Arabs living on that land either ran away to nearby countries, or agreed to become part of Isreal, under Israeli/Jewish jurisdiction. At this time Jerusalem was split in two - half on the Israeli side, the other half under Jordanian rule. In 1967 after Israel won another war against ALL of its neighbors, Israel conquered lands like the Golan Heights, the Sinai desert, and Jerusalem. Now keep in mind that the rules of the game in a war are different (Hiroshima and Nagasaki anyone?)- Israels existence was at stake, and other countries gambled with their own lands and lives. Israel could have continued annexing more parts of the Middle East if it wasnt for international pressure to stop (Europe and America were afraid of the USSR's response, and were trying to avoid another world war).

Even earlier then 67, back in 1958, Israel had to face a war with its neighbors, as well as in 1973.

Now if Israel is so gung ho about starting drama then why has it agreed to return of all of the Sinai desert to Egypt in exchange for peace? Israel could have had all the oil it needed to supprt itself, even to export some to other countries. But since the peace accords of the late 70s Israel and Egypt have been on good terms, and there's a lot of Israeli tourists in Egypt.

Israel was also generous in givng land to Jordan in the mid 90s, again in exchange for peace. It even offered Syria crucial parts of the Golan heights in exchange for peace ( a contreversial matter in Israel). But Syria kept declining.

Israel went into Lebanon in 1983 due to growing border tensions, provoked by the Palestinians, which were headed up by Arafat. You know what the US did after Lebanese terrorists bombed a US ship? It decided to pull out Lebanon, instead of retaliating. Israel could not afford the luxury of just ignoring the problem - the wars of the past three decades were still pretty fresh in the minds of its people.

I'm not saying Lebanon was handled in an ideal sort of way, nor that democracy is the most ideal form of government, but it sure beats what Osama and his buddies have in mind.

Even Israel's problems with the Palestinians, how do you think they came about? The Palestinians started an Intifida in the mid 80s, they supported the Arab nations during their wars against Israel, they insitagated border problems between Israel, Jordan, and Lebanon, etc. Israel actually wanted to give control over Gaza to Egypt, but Egypt didn't want to have to deal with that territory, and nor does Jordan (where the majority of the population is seen as Palestinian Arabs). Palestinians like to go back to the 1940s when bringing up their rights, but lots of Jews were already immigrating to Israel from the Europe at the turn of the 19th Century. At the time the land was indeed called Palestine, but was controlled by Turkey (which is today one of Israel's main regional allies), and later by the British (again, a strong allie of Israel, and even stronger allie of the USA). And back in ancient times the Romans ruled the so called "holy land".

The war today is seen as a religious war, but here's the interesting part - the Arab world, for the most part, didnt become Moslim up until the thirteenth Century, and Allah is a product of the Seventh Century. Compare that with the Jewish faith, which has been around long before it, and precedes Christianity as well. The two holiest cities in the Moslim world aren't even located in Israel. The only reason Jerusalem is so sacred to Arabs is b/c most of the Moslim faith is based on Christianity and Judeism.

Being non religious myself, one of the only real solutions to the worlds religious problems is to start a colony/ territory for all the non religious/secular people of the world - maybe something similar to modern day Amsterdam.

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Originally posted by vixenfoxxy

Here's the mirror, look in it. I highly doubt a tool like you went to Harvard and Stanford law so that you could sell shoes and claim to speak Italian. Prove it or be off with you. :rolleyes:

CHRles, the reason I don't feel much sympathy for this statement is that Israel consistently STARTS these wars, and there's no legal allowance for preemtive self-defense. I'm not entirely sure that I agree with that premise - I think Israel definitely had a point in attacking preemtively when Saudi/Egyptian tanks and troops were massing on its borders, but many of the other cases were oh so questionable.

Also, I just want to clarify - I in no way support, respect or otherwise condone Osama Bin Laden or his actions, likewise with his minions and their actions. I think what he's done to so many innocent lives is totally deplorable, I feel that he should be found and punished (though I'm not sure what anyone could possibly do to avenge so many innocent lives lost both here and abroad). To look at things objectively though, the US really does throw its weight around too much, IMHO, and it is no small wonder that other countries view us as ridiculous and in need of a good smacking. This country is like some big, spoiled, unruly brat whose parents have now been eclipsed. As one of my professors said, a superpower is only unbalanceable up until the point in which small states form a coalition strong enough to smack it down. I fear that if Bush and any presidents who follow him continue these yee-haw policies, that fate may become the inevitable.

One more thing - with regard to your comment about Israel being the only democracy in that area - okay, cookie for Israel. But who says that democracy has to be the only way to do things? Don't take this comment the wrong way and imply that I think dictatorships, authoritarian governments, communist regimes etc etc are the way to go - but saying that some other means of governance can effectively and benevolently serve the people, there's no reason to say democracy must be the ultimate goal. No, I don't believe that any of the current non-democratic systems over there have that down - indeed there have been many many violations of human and political rights there as elsewhere, but let's not kid ourselves... democracy ain't always the cake either. Democracies also violate human rights, democracies even violate other *countries'* rights - the US, for example...

Good points though, and well taken. [/QUO

youre stupid & nasty-enuff to be amusing, prove something to you- dont make me laugh. sell shoes? yeah, if yr talking a few million pairs a year, sure-, can buy and sell you 75,00 times over-in euro's - lmao-- next time yr in firenze, you can come by my place in Gaiole-YOU TOOL- guidette- wannabee- get a life- keep studying yr law, see if they sell CLASS, in GW, look it up in the dictionary-you obviously werent born with any- LMFAO

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Come on now, take it easy on the girl - most of the people that I disagree with here are cool ppl. The Middle East conflict is not a simple issue, and people have different opinions on the matter.

Another thing, from what I've seen Christian Arabs and non religious Arabs are cool people to talk to. They have a totally different point of view where Israel and the Middle East is concerned. I don't know what it is about the Moslim faith, but it seems to bring up the extremes and obsessions in the countries where it is the dominant religion (India vs. Pakistan, some of the wars in Africa, and of course the Middle East).

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Originally posted by babbo

youre stupid & nasty-enuff to be amusing, prove something to you- dont make me laugh. sell shoes? yeah, if yr talking a few million pairs a year, sure-, can buy and sell you 75,00 times over-in euro's - lmao-- next time yr in firenze, you can come by my place in Gaiole-YOU TOOL- guidette- wannabee- get a life- keep studying yr law, see if they sell CLASS, in GW, look it up in the dictionary-you obviously werent born with any- LMFAO

Class can't be bought, and niether can I. You aren't proving anything to me because you can't. Could you even write anything in Italian? Have you been to Florence before? If you're such the Italian businessman you claim to be I'd think you could say something to me, but you never do. You and Housediva would make a great couple - you're both great at fabricating fabulous lives that you can't prove exist while trying to criticize everyone else thanks to your own shortcomings. Many people on these boards know who I am and what I do, they can back me up on everything I say. You, on the other hand, are some pathetic little personality on a messageboard that doesn't even exist in real life.

How terrible it must be know that you aren't even half what you pretend to be on the internet.

I'll do you a favor and not pick on you anymore, it seems you have it bad enough already :aright:

-------

CHRles - As far as all the exchanges of violence and attempts for ceasefires and peace that have gone on in that region - it's very difficult to say who's right and who's wrong. Everyone over there has committed their own share of crimes. I don't agree with the Palestinians terror strikes, but then again I don't agree with Israel's reprisal-type actions against them either. One of the most disturbing images I've ever seen was one on CNN of a Palestinians throwing small stones at a passing israeli tank. The tank shot something at the guy that exploded in a huge fireball that engulfed the whole street corner. What a representation of that whole conflict - total lack of proportionality. *sigh*

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Originally posted by vixenfoxxy

Class can't be bought, and niether can I. You aren't proving anything to me because you can't. Could you even write anything in Italian? Have you been to Florence before? If you're such the Italian businessman you claim to be I'd think you could say something to me, but you never do. You and Housediva would make a great couple - you're both great at fabricating fabulous lives that you can't prove exist while trying to criticize everyone else thanks to your own shortcomings. Many people on these boards know who I am and what I do, they can back me up on everything I say. You, on the other hand, are some pathetic little personality on a messageboard that doesn't even exist in real life.

How terrible it must be know that you aren't even half what you pretend to be on the internet.

I'll do you a favor and not pick on you anymore, it seems you have it bad enough already :aright:

-------

CHRles - As far as all the exchanges of violence and attempts for ceasefires and peace that have gone on in that region - it's very difficult to say who's right and who's wrong. Everyone over there has committed their own share of crimes. I don't agree with the Palestinians terror strikes, but then again I don't agree with Israel's reprisal-type actions against them either. One of the most disturbing images I've ever seen was one on CNN of a Palestinians throwing small stones at a passing israeli tank. The tank shot something at the guy that exploded in a huge fireball that engulfed the whole street corner. What a representation of that whole conflict - total lack of proportionality. *sigh*

muah:)
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Originally posted by vixenfoxxy

Class can't be bought, and niether can I. You aren't proving anything to me because you can't. Could you even write anything in Italian? Have you been to Florence before? If you're such the Italian businessman you claim to be I'd think you could say something to me, but you never do. You and Housediva would make a great couple - you're both great at fabricating fabulous lives that you can't prove exist while trying to criticize everyone else thanks to your own shortcomings. Many people on these boards know who I am and what I do, they can back me up on everything I say. You, on the other hand, are some pathetic little personality on a messageboard that doesn't even exist in real life.

How terrible it must be know that you aren't even half what you pretend to be on the internet.

I'll do you a favor and not pick on you anymore, it seems you have it bad enough already :aright:

-------

CHRles - As far as all the exchanges of violence and attempts for ceasefires and peace that have gone on in that region - it's very difficult to say who's right and who's wrong. Everyone over there has committed their own share of crimes. I don't agree with the Palestinians terror strikes, but then again I don't agree with Israel's reprisal-type actions against them either. One of the most disturbing images I've ever seen was one on CNN of a Palestinians throwing small stones at a passing israeli tank. The tank shot something at the guy that exploded in a huge fireball that engulfed the whole street corner. What a representation of that whole conflict - total lack of proportionality. *sigh* [/

dream on loser- anytime you can scrape the pennys together to get to italy, let me know, be happy to meet up with ya.

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Originally posted by babbo

dream on loser- anytime you can scrape the pennys together to get to italy, let me know, be happy to meet up with ya.

please shut the fuck up...ur making an ass out of yourself ..

ur so fuckin transparents its ridiculous...u and ur bullshit "I LIVE IN FIRENZE "...or when u were on naughtybabes clit a couple of mths back claiming to be a shoe designer looking for models or whatever the fuck....i bet u work with rizzo..i bet he introduced u to clubplanet as a way of killing time between ur hectic shoe schedule

foxxy has u on the ropes..ur reponses r weaker and weaker...

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Originally posted by ghhhhhost

please shut the fuck up...ur making an ass out of yourself ..

ur so fuckin transparents its ridiculous...u and ur bullshit "I LIVE IN FIRENZE "...or when u were on naughtybabes clit a couple of mths back claiming to be a shoe designer looking for models or whatever the fuck....i bet u work with rizzo..i bet he introduced u to clubplanet as a way of killing time between ur hectic shoe schedule

foxxy has u on the ropes..ur reponses r weaker and weaker...

yep, doing the rope a dope, totally bored with it. she lost her cool cause i used the word naive- LMFAO- go stck your arm up your ass

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Well ... yea technically from a legal stand point we are neutral. But if you ask Arabs over there which side they think America is on, most of them would say Israels, because we fund their military. Maybe we did not intend to take their side but the Arabs obviously do not see it that way.

And on another note we have gone through major efforts to stop the funding of Al-Queda. Which means people who mearly give money to them and not participate in the actual combat. Our leaders seems to view anyone who gives money to Al-Queda and the like as our enemies.

So maybe from a technical legal standpoint we are neutral but for all practical purposes we are on Israels side.

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Originally posted by xpyrate

Well ... yea technically from a legal stand point we are neutral. But if you ask Arabs over there which side they think America is on, most of them would say Israels, because we fund their military. Maybe we did not intend to take their side but the Arabs obviously do not see it that way.

And on another note we have gone through major efforts to stop the funding of Al-Queda. Which means people who mearly give money to them and not participate in the actual combat. Our leaders seems to view anyone who gives money to Al-Queda and the like as our enemies.

So maybe from a technical legal standpoint we are neutral but for all practical purposes we are on Israels side.

There's no question that we are. Strategically and financially, Israel is very important to us. Any small wonder that we recognized their status as a nation-state in 11 seconds? Nope.

The whole thing about funding to Al Qaeda really puts me on the fence. Looking at something like the Nicaragua case, it's clear that international law doesn't view funding of rebels as a valid justification for use of force. Then again, I feel like the embassy bombings, 9/11 and everything else were so heinous that the action against Al Qaeda was justifiable. Doesn't fit... So I'm still trying to decide how that can be reconciled. Should there be a line drawn? And if so where? It's tough to say.

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