What Will President Bush Due In Haiti?

[sobeton]

it's fairly obvious the rebels will not negotiate, without President Aristide resigning. President Bush making statements like this " the deteriorating situation in Haiti may require an international security presence, once a political deal is reached." would seem to be political mumbo jumbo. IMO an international security force should be put in place immediately, before more people die... while a political deal is negotiated. a political deal that should require immediate new elections, overseen by neutral parties outside of the Haitian political structure.

[mursa]

..probably a few tons of Rice and corn ...why send troops into haiti if there isn't anything there worthwhile (resources) , we'll let others do the dirty work .

[pattbateman]

why do anything?

everytime we do anything everyone bitches anyway

but yet when they are iin need of help they beg us to come to their aid?????????????????

[sobeton]

yeah, why do anything?? let a democratically elected President be forced out of office by rebels, and political opponents. seems like a very rationale approach.

[vicman]

how long has Aristide been in power?

[sobeton]

since 1994

[bigpoppanils]

Originally posted by pattbateman

why do anything?

well, since Bush & Co. are arguing that the one iraq war's purposes was to free the iraqi people from oppression.

because of that, the US is going to be expected to step in in all matters of oppression. Look at Liberia, for example.

[marksimons]

*cough*

democratically elected, you're having a laugh, try US appointed. another small country that in it's own way has been fucked over by the US again and again...

"In addition, the CIA was openly opposed to Aristide. Its reporting systematically portrayed him as both unstable and violent, little better than he would replace. At one point the CIA leaked to conservatives on the Hill its psychological profile of Aristide. It showed that he was unstable, both a megalomaniac and a manic-depressive, and given to the same violent measures as the Cedras regime - among other things necklacing, a quaint Hatian custom of putting a tire around the neck of a political enem, filling it with gas, and setting it on fire."

"One of the CIA's principal people in Haiti was Emmanuel (Toto) Constant, the leader of a Haitian right-wing paramilitary group, FRAPH (Front for the Advancement and Progress of Haiti). He was, in fact, on the CIA's payroll and was bitterly anti-Aristide"

"The return of Aristide would have to wait. Vice President Gore was designated to call Aristide, then in exile in New York, to tell him we intented to keep our promise to restore him to power. It would simply take more time and more planning. Gore expected to find the Hatian leader angry and bitter and was instead chargrined by Aristide's delight at the news. "he's ecstatic," gore reported to Clinton. The president was not surprised, but was relieved to find that the most important person in the Hatian matrix was not going to be criticising him. "what would you rather do?" Clinton asked Gore. "Go back to Haiti or sip champagne in Harry Belafonte's appartment?" Both in America and the rest of the world, it looked like another major setback at the hands of small-bore third-world tyrants."

from the book War in a Time of Peace: Bush, Clinton and the Generals. by David Halberstam, it's amazing, seriously, go get it...

[sobeton]

he was put back into office by US, and served out the rest of his term. He was then reelected in 1996 in an election over seen by the UN.

clearly there are problems within the Haitian government. why those concerns where never aggressively pursued by the UN, US, etc at this point is somewhat irrelevant.

while the international politics gets played out. innocent people's lives are put in jeopardy. since we are calling for Aristide to resign; in a rather poised manner. who would replace him? the rebels, his political opponents, etc. that has not been made really clear. IMO that really needs to be very clear.

[mrmatas2277]

touchy situation...something def. has to be done about this...to me the US should be very concerned about whats going on in the Caribbean...i just dont understand how the poor Haitians could re-elect this guy again...and this is of course is just my .02 cents...change the term time for president, 6 yrs is waaaaaaayyyy too long...

[vicman]

Originally posted by mrmatas2277

touchy situation...something def. has to be done about this...to me the US should be very concerned about whats going on in the Caribbean...i just dont understand how the poor Haitians could re-elect this guy again...and this is of course is just my .02 cents...change the term time for president, 6 yrs is waaaaaaayyyy too long...

werd. if your going to be corrupt and fix elections, do it the mexican way, or don't do it at all.

[mrmatas2277]

Originally posted by vicman

werd. if your going to be corrupt and fix elections, do it the mexican way, or don't do it at all.

[livin42nite]

If you know the case in Haiti, then you know that Aristide has gotta go. Since he was restored back in power he has done nothing but bad for the country. Haiti is the main middle point for drug trafficing btw columbia and the us, guess who controls about 85 percent of that flow On top of being a drug dealer, the man is money hungry, lives a luxury style life while the rest of the country is poor. He gets himself involved in all the businesses of haiti and if you don't include him then you got tons of trouble. Example, my father started the first ISP (internet service provider) there. Seeing an oppurtunity he tried to get involved in it, but my fam would have nothing to do with that and as a result our lives were threatened, the government phone company stopped giving phone lines to us and disconnected the ones we already had, and after we invested money in t1 systems and that started working he had them close us down for illegal activity costing the phone companies millions of dollars a year (this of course was proven to be bs later) and after months we opened up again but in a small country like that your business gets hurt when people know they might not be able to depend on your service because the political heads might go after us again. Worse then any of those crimes the man is a ruthless murderer, he kills anybody that opposes him or speaks out against him. It is until last year we could have any sort of opposition against him and even then whenever there would be a peaceful rally he did all to stop it by sending armed thugs to attack us by throwing rocks at us, shooting at us, and even holding my older brother and uncle hostage as prisoners for 18 days just because of our last name. One of my uncle's is the main spokesperson for the democratic platform in haiti, the largest opposition group. If a journalist spoke out against aristide in the past he was killed. Even the students who voiced their discontent with him and were about to have a protest against him were attacked by his thugs at their school. He sent thugs to the university in haiti to kill these students.

The rebels you see fighting now to get rid of Aristide is divided into two groups into one, its composed of former Aristide thugs who got all their guns in the past from Aristide to kill for Aristide and former military who were there in the early 90's. These are not people that ever liked each other before, they are joined in their goal which is to rid of Aristide. The ones that used to be his thugs its more of revenge issue for them as their leader was killed by Aristide a few months ago and now his brother leads the gang. The oppostion groups are completely seperated from the rebels now. They do all their movements in a peaceful manner even though they are repeatedly attacked and threatened. You have all sectors of society together in Haiti now together, united more then ever of all races, religious background, poor, rich, middle class all are united now saying Aristide must go.

As for as democraticly elected those elections were flawed and boycotted. I'm just glad right now that the bush administration is in control as the clinton administration were all bought off as well as the black caucus to support Aristide. Aside from Israel and maybe two other countries, HAiti as poor as it is, spent more money on lobbying in the U.S. then any other country. It's sad to see many people misunderstand whats going on in Haiti, as you hear some people actually in favor of him in the U.S., the man is a terrorist ruling as a dictator and the only thing that seperates him from a bin laden or sadaam is he has no mass destruction weapons. This guy who is asking help from the US and was restored by them on his first day back in Haiti, had an anti american speech. Anyhow hope I cleared some things for you guys, and hope you understand why there is no way anybody would negotiate with aristide. Hopefully he is out one way or the other by the end of this week, which is looking more and more possible.

[marksimons]

.

[sobeton]

IMO both the Clinton and Bush administrations should share the blame. neither administration did anything with regard to the alleged human rights violations, etc. simply because now the Bush administration wants to take a stand. does not negate their there previous in action.

quite frankly I think Aristide opponents are acting unwisely. if you want him out of power; then broker a deal that calls for immediate new elections. elections overseen by a neutral party outside of Haiti. taking over a government using violence, IMO is not the way to solidify ones case to the world.

this situation has far too many political under tones, for any one country to provide an unbiased solution. the UN really needs to step up to the plate.

[livin42nite]

Sobeton, what are you talking about when you talk about aristide opponents. It is not all of his opponents that are using violence, many groups are still using the pacifist movement. Some people though just can't take it anymore and are using violence which is ultimately Aristide's fault. "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable" and thats whats happening now. As for as new elections thats what they are asking for, they want aristide to step out of power set up a neutral temporary transitional government, and then have that type of election you are talking about.

[sobeton]

I am referring to his opponents within the government structure and the rebels. clearly any agreement will have to satisfy both those parties. Aristide did not initiate the violence which is occurring now. whatever he is presumed to have done in the past, does not justify this current violence. once again I believe new elections should be called, and overseen by a neutral party. Aristide should be allowed to be a candidate, if people believe he should be. if Aristide is forcibly removed, then Haiti runs the risk of being seen as an illegal regime without international standing. I highly doubt the UN, or any international body will give an illegal regime. the humanitarian support they obviously need. with regard to the call for resignation by the US and France; it is inappropriate given their prior history in Haiti. any call for resignation should come from the UN.

[cintron]

everyone knows Aristide isn't an angel. IMO, i dont see how the country is going to get any worse, so a change of government is an opportunity to turn things around.

After all, people have to be pretty fucking pissed off at the government if they're trying to overthrow it... so it must have been doing something wrong.

Wasn't Haiti a french colony? Where are they in all of this?

[livin42nite]

Well just guessing we won't see eye to eye on this one sobeton but Aristide has set up the climate of violence that exists now in haiti. A revolution is occuring because of the violence he used on everybody that was just trying to change the country in a pacifist movement. THe opposition groups in Haiti did want to negotiate with Aristide for many years in the past and it wasn't until november they just said no, not anymore. The day he sent thugs to kill students at a university was just the last button and since then all sectors of the country have wanted to go on without him and said no more to negotiations. To say aristide did not initiate the violence that is occuring now is just wrong as anybody that has taken any look into the situation there will agree to that.

Sobeton let me give u an example that might help u explain the situation better. Imagine if usama bin laden was the president of afghanistan. And instead of attacks on the united states on 9/11 it was somewhere in his own country where people that did not support him worked. Of course the us would not have gone to invade afghanistan since no wmd and attack was not on them, however the afghani people would be pretty upset to say the least at him. Would violence against him be ok?

Aristide is a murderer and terrorizes the people of his country. The rebels fighting now, they are not fighting to be in control of the country. One half of them are fighting to avenge the murder of their leader, who was mutilated in the palace. The former army guys that are also using violence just came a few weeks ago and joined the other rebels for political reasons but not for power.

[sobeton]

yes, unfortunately we won't see eye to eye on this situation... clearly the events occurring in Haiti are not acts of terrorism, and amount to a civil and social disturbance. it is one thing to set a climate of violence, however it just as apprehensible to continue to foster violence.

if Aristide is in fact a murder who terrorizes his own people. why where no formal appeals ever made to the US, UN, or any other country for that matter? as I recall Aristide never prevented anyone from leaving that country. in fact you're in Miami, so obviously you where free to come and go as you pleased.

I don't recall during the civil rights movement in the US, the apartheid movement in South Africa, etc people trying to forcefully remove the leader of the country. this situation is about missed chances. this I blame on the UN, US (the Clinton and Bush administrations), etc for not previously taking an aggressive role, and demanding reform in Haiti.

now we have a mess... if you think that mess is going to be cleared up by forcing Aristide out of power,you are wrong.

believe me I understand your passion and conviction. however, I don't share your belief in forcing a leader out of office with violence. violence breeds violence IMO.

[sobeton]

as a side note .I think it apprehensible the way this administration, and previous administrations have handled Haitian refuges.

[livin42nite]

Originally posted by sobeton

yes, unfortunately we won't see eye to eye on this situation... clearly the events occurring in Haiti are not acts of terrorism, and amount to a civil and social disturbance. it is one thing to set a climate of violence, however it just as apprehensible to continue to foster violence.

if Aristide is in fact a murder who terrorizes his own people. why where no formal appeals ever made to the US, UN, or any other country for that matter? as I recall Aristide never prevented anyone from leaving that country. in fact you're in Miami, so obviously you where free to come and go as you pleased.

I don't recall during the civil rights movement in the US, the apartheid movement in South Africa, etc people trying to forcefully remove the leader of the country. this situation is about missed chances. this I blame on the UN, US (the Clinton and Bush administrations), etc for not previously taking an aggressive role, and demanding reform in Haiti.

now we have a mess... if you think that mess is going to be cleared up by forcing Aristide out of power,you are wrong.

believe me I understand your passion and conviction. however, I don't share your belief in forcing a leader out of office with violence. violence breeds violence IMO.

Your absolutely right sobeton.....violence breeds violence. Aristide used so much violence thats what caused the violence of today. I can tell you are anti-war, but you gotta remember that the us and every other country for that matter i are the way they are today in a large part due to war. The very freedoms you have now and are able to enjoy is a result of great movements that brought about change, not all were changed because of war but sometimes it was necassary. Right now its not a state of anarchy that is going on in Haiti, it is a country on the brink of a civil war.

In the past, many people did make complaints to the O.A.S, the U.S. embassies, french embassies, and anybody that was in Haiti. Unfortunately until recently, nobody was listening because they felt Aristide had the majority of the population behind him, but that is just not the case. To see hundreds of thousands protesting against Aristide is not just significant because of the number but because every single person that went to those protests knew their lives were at stake. And the more violence he had on his people the more support the opposition got. The reason the U.S. and French have taken their stands on this situation is because of the complaints that were made to them in the past, they were aware of Aristide's crimes and corruption long ago but now that they see he is not hte popular president he once was they are asking him to step down.

YOur also right I was free to go as I wish, but my life is in Haiti. My family, friends, my business, my real home and peace of mind is in Haiti so no matter what I would always go back and fight to make sure that the country is in the best shape it can be. If ARistide stays in power my family is pretty much dead, business over, and over 4000 people lose their jobs as a direct result of closed business. Being able to leave the country has nothing to do with the government in control, unless they set an interdiction on you personally traveling which they have on my uncle.

We don't see eye to eye on this and thats fine, but if aristide were to leave power, I am 100 percent sure within a month the country would be fine. ARistide does not have die hard fanatics. He has people that are money fanatics and he pays them to commit crimes for him. Once their source of income is gone they will be just as big of fans of whoever is in power hoping that their lives are improved and that they can have enough money to survive. ARistide uses the poverty of his people to secure himself.

[sobeton]

anti war when said war is not to protect. I'm sorry but, from what I have read and seen. for France the former colonial power of Haiti, to ask for the elected leader of Haiti its former colony to resign. is laughable at best. you don't find it odd that only the US and France are calling for his resignation.

it seems clear to me .that this is not an uprising of people against Aristide, but rather a violent military action which is being led by former Haitian soldiers and death squads. which Aristide had thrown out of the country. Guy Philippe is no saint, yet he is leading this revolt with the blessing of Arisitdes government opponents. since the rebels control half the country. why have we not seen any protest against Aristide? surely the rebels would protect the protesters. think it might have to do, with the fact that only a small group of people may be opposed to Aristide ??

once again, I believe there is way too much politics being played out here. the UN needs to step up to the plate.

[mr mahs]

Originally posted by sobeton

UN needs to step up to the plate.

Don't hold your breathe guy....

[livin42nite]

Originally posted by sobeton

anti war when said war is not to protect. I'm sorry but, from what I have read and seen. for France the former colonial power of Haiti, to ask for the elected leader of Haiti its former colony to resign. is laughable at best. you don't find it odd that only the US and France are calling for his resignation.

it seems clear to me .that this is not an uprising of people against Aristide, but rather a violent military action which is being led by former Haitian soldiers and death squads. which Aristide had thrown out of the country. Guy Philippe is no saint, yet he is leading this revolt with the blessing of Arisitdes government opponents. since the rebels control half the country. why have we not seen any protest against Aristide? surely the rebels would protect the protesters. think it might have to do, with the fact that only a small group of people may be opposed to Aristide ??

once again, I believe there is way too much politics being played out here. the UN needs to step up to the plate.

Obviously misinformed. If anybody were to protest right now in the capital hundreds of lives would have been lost. Outside of that protests are not necessary the people are on the street celebrating and cheering on the rebels. The only big city left in Haiti in Aristide's control is the capital and its only a matter of time before that is taken over.

You mention the French and US views as laughable, but thing is they are the only ones that have reallly been involved in Haiti to know the situation very well. But still, you were not well informed there as the Dominican Republic and Costa Rica have said the same. The only country that has said no to the removal of Aristide is South Africa. Why? Well nobody knows for sure but it seems like there is a very fishy relationship between the two countries. A lot of the weapons and tear gas the government uses against the people are made in south africa and late last year a huge ship from south africa came full of troops and weapons to "protect their president" but it seems like it was more of a deal for weapons, as tons of weapons for S.A. now in Haiti.

About Guy Philippe he is no angel you are right. THe other leaders of the rebels Buteur Metayer even worse and Chamblain not an angel also. On top of that none ever really liked each other and to see them united now and to have supporters that once feared them only goes to show how much hate the people of Haiti have for Aristide.

About the UN they have had no role in Haiti in the past couple of years and may not know the situation as well. They are consulting though today with different groups.