The West Was Warned

[marksimons]

The West Was Warned. Now It Is Paying The Price Of The "War On Terror"

by Robert Fisk, taken from the Independent - UK

They had been warned. The Aznars and the Blairs and the Bushes had been told by those who were their allies - France and Germany and many others, not to mention the Arabs - that their crusade against al-Qa'ida could most cruelly rebound upon them. The Madrid bombings are not only a terrible revenge for Spain's participation in "part two" of the "war on terror" - the illegal invasion of Iraq - but a cruel and incrementally more painful attack on civilians by al-Qa'ida.

If America's neo-conservatives believe in the "war of civilisations", then so does al-Qa'ida: what other effect could the Madrid slaughter have in the West than to reinforce the notion - however preposterous historically - that Islam and the West were in conflict? Civilians are now to die in Europe as brutally as they have died in Bali and Tunisia and Istanbul and - let us, for a moment, see the world through another prism - as they have been torn to pieces by our bombs in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Sources close to Osama bin Laden's organisation are puzzled about the strange message, supposedly from the attackers, which was printed in the Arabic language paper Al-Quds al-Arabi. It suggested that the initial response to Spain's involvement in Iraq was the attack on Italian troops in Kerbala - if real, it would surely have referred to the killing of seven Spanish intelligence officers near Hilla. Using a public statement to order its own "cells" to make more attacks does not show the desperate discretion which al-Qa'ida normally shows in its communications.

But the arrests in Spain, the mobile phone calls, the sheer scale of the train bombings shows an al-Qa'ida as confident and ruthless as ever - and now resolved to attack in Europe. If the right foot fell in Istanbul and the left foot fell in Madrid, where, geographically, will the next right foot fall? We can take out an atlas and a ruler and work it out for ourselves.

I don't believe this is the Third World War. Nor is it a "war on terror". Nor is it a "war of civilisations". But our own leaders are wilfully leading us into a period of appalling suffering because they will not address the causes of injustice in the Islamic world. Repeatedly, our leaders were told of the consequences of participation in America's Iraqi folly. They lied to us. They told us about weapons of mass destruction that didn't exist, about links between Iraq and 11 September 2001 that didn't exist. Now, trapped in Iraq, we are desperate to scuttle away, leaving behind us a half-trained force of collaboration police who will - supposedly - shed their blood for ours.

No, the murderers are the men who plant the bombs. The killers are those who kill - and that includes our pilots as well as their bombers. We don't want to kill civilians. But we know that our wars will do that, and death does not come more pleasantly, less painfully, because the victims are killed by the supposedly benevolent West rather than the supposedly cruel East. Now we are beginning to pay the price.

Did it really begin on 11 September 2001? No, it began long before. And no amount of weasel words, no amount of church warden sincerity can mask the degree to which we have been taken by our leaders into this insane conflict.

[mr mahs]

Originally posted by marksimons

The West Was Warned. Now It Is Paying The Price Of The "War On Terror"

by Robert Fisk, taken from the Independent - UK

They had been warned. The Aznars and the Blairs and the Bushes had been told by those who were their allies - France and Germany and many others, not to mention the Arabs - that their crusade against al-Qa'ida could most cruelly rebound upon them. The Madrid bombings are not only a terrible revenge for Spain's participation in "part two" of the "war on terror" - the illegal invasion of Iraq - but a cruel and incrementally more painful attack on civilians by al-Qa'ida.

If America's neo-conservatives believe in the "war of civilisations", then so does al-Qa'ida: what other effect could the Madrid slaughter have in the West than to reinforce the notion - however preposterous historically - that Islam and the West were in conflict? Civilians are now to die in Europe as brutally as they have died in Bali and Tunisia and Istanbul and - let us, for a moment, see the world through another prism - as they have been torn to pieces by our bombs in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Sources close to Osama bin Laden's organisation are puzzled about the strange message, supposedly from the attackers, which was printed in the Arabic language paper Al-Quds al-Arabi. It suggested that the initial response to Spain's involvement in Iraq was the attack on Italian troops in Kerbala - if real, it would surely have referred to the killing of seven Spanish intelligence officers near Hilla. Using a public statement to order its own "cells" to make more attacks does not show the desperate discretion which al-Qa'ida normally shows in its communications.

But the arrests in Spain, the mobile phone calls, the sheer scale of the train bombings shows an al-Qa'ida as confident and ruthless as ever - and now resolved to attack in Europe. If the right foot fell in Istanbul and the left foot fell in Madrid, where, geographically, will the next right foot fall? We can take out an atlas and a ruler and work it out for ourselves.

I don't believe this is the Third World War. Nor is it a "war on terror". Nor is it a "war of civilisations". But our own leaders are wilfully leading us into a period of appalling suffering because they will not address the causes of injustice in the Islamic world. Repeatedly, our leaders were told of the consequences of participation in America's Iraqi folly. They lied to us. They told us about weapons of mass destruction that didn't exist, about links between Iraq and 11 September 2001 that didn't exist. Now, trapped in Iraq, we are desperate to scuttle away, leaving behind us a half-trained force of collaboration police who will - supposedly - shed their blood for ours.

No, the murderers are the men who plant the bombs. The killers are those who kill - and that includes our pilots as well as their bombers. We don't want to kill civilians. But we know that our wars will do that, and death does not come more pleasantly, less painfully, because the victims are killed by the supposedly benevolent West rather than the supposedly cruel East. Now we are beginning to pay the price.

Did it really begin on 11 September 2001? No, it began long before. And no amount of weasel words, no amount of church warden sincerity can mask the degree to which we have been taken by our leaders into this insane conflict.

What a yellow faced VAGINA...

Tell this guy to grow a sack....I bet his direct ancestor was the one appeasing Hitler and telling his countrymen Britain was at fault for the agression by the Nazi's.... What a fawking joke...

This part kills me...address the cause of injustice? I thought removing a despotic regime was the beginning of justice in the ME....

But our own leaders are wilfully leading us into a period of appalling suffering because they will not address the causes of injustice in the Islamic world. Repeatedly, our leaders were told of the consequences of participation in America's Iraqi folly.

You silly Europeans, you have 200 die on your soil and you start the appeasment process in turbo overdrive. What would have happened if 3k died on your soil? Would all of your first born be named Osama? I live NYC, a constant bulls eye for these animals and you don't see us tuck tail and running for cover.....

BRING IT!!!!!

Go ahead follow Chirac and his goons of appeasement we all saw what happened whan the temp rose in PARIS, imagine a bombing?

[cintron]

If you get warned that building a nice house means you can get robbed someday, is it still your fault when a robber decides to break the law and steal your shit?

Of course we might get attacked. That's what happens when you fight someone who's trying to kill you.

THe point of a fight is to NOT GIVE UP when they manage to land a blow.

[pattbateman]

no shit

i guess people in europe are just a bunch of pussies

[kramadas]

It wasn't their war to begin with, now they joined, and have become a target. Why would they NOT want to back out? Possibly they don't exhibit the same "cowboy" mentality the US does? Tell me, before all this started how many non-ETA terrorist attacks happened on Spanish soil?

SOme of you people amaze me - these people come to help the US, when they were NOT a target in the first place, now their people are killed because of this and you guys call them cowards??? Show some respect.

[pattbateman]

yeeeeee!!!!! haaaawwww!!!!

[mr mahs]

Originally posted by raver_mania

SOme of you people amaze me - these people come to help the US, when they were NOT a target in the first place, now their people are killed because of this and you guys call them cowards??? Show some respect.

With all due respect... Go fawk yourself, honestly!!!!

Now that they're a target, their determination should be ten fold....

[jamiroguy1]

Originally posted by mr mahs

With all due respect... Go fawk yourself, honestly!!!!

Now that they're a target, their determination should be ten fold....

Man, you really are a fanatic! The bodies of these people aren't even cold yet and you're bitching about them not whipping themsleves into a bloody frenzy for war. You really are a war monger.

[igloo]

Originally posted by raver_mania

It wasn't their war to begin with, now they joined, and have become a target. Why would they NOT want to back out? Possibly they don't exhibit the same "cowboy" mentality the US does? Tell me, before all this started how many non-ETA terrorist attacks happened on Spanish soil?

SOme of you people amaze me - these people come to help the US, when they were NOT a target in the first place, now their people are killed because of this and you guys call them cowards??? Show some respect.

Raver...I must disgaree with you vehemently, and must say, I am disappointed in your response....

What 'war' are you talking about...Iraq???

Are you trying to say that Al Qaeda is only pissed at Spain because they supported the U.S. in Iraq?

And does that mean you also believe that Al Qaeda had no interest in hitting SPain despite Spain's overall support in the war on terror?

Al Qaeda is not pissed that SPain has been making arrests of Al Qaeda operatives?

And like mr mahs pointed out, Turkey did not support the U.S. in the Iraq war, and they were still hit......so was Morocco...

You disappoint me ....I expect useful idiots like marksimons to fall prey to AL Qaeda's political moves, but not you....

Just like Al Qaeda was emboldened when the US cut and run from Somalia, and we furthered cemented that view with our half ass responses to AL Qaeda attacks until after 9/11.....Al Qaeda was counting on this very response from Spain and the American left... cut and run...don't have the belly for the fight...the West is a paper tiger...

Amazing that people actually believe that Al Qaeda would not hit targets if not for the war in Iraq...absolutely amazing stupidity....

[kramadas]

Originally posted by jamiroguy1

Man, you really are a fanatic! The bodies of these people aren't even cold yet and you're bitching about them not whipping themsleves into a bloody frenzy for war. You really are a war monger.

Seriously! Total lack of respect - the kind of mentality thats alienating this country.

[igloo]

Originally posted by jamiroguy1

Man, you really are a fanatic! The bodies of these people aren't even cold yet and you're bitching about them not whipping themsleves into a bloody frenzy for war. You really are a war monger.

No, clueless douchebag......not to whip themselves into a frenzy for war, but the first reaction to this attack should not have been " we are pulling troops out of Iraq" and the "Iraq war is a disaster"...

Absolutely monstrous misstep by the new Spanish government.......

The animals who planned this attack could not have been happier from the response in Spain, and useful idiots like you..

[mr mahs]

Originally posted by jamiroguy1

Man, you really are a fanatic! The bodies of these people aren't even cold yet and you're bitching about them not whipping themsleves into a bloody frenzy for war. You really are a war monger.

War monger? So they should just cut and run what does that accomplish? I pointed it out in another thread... Turkey,Moracco, Bali all have been some what neutral in the war on terror and they were attacked. Frenzy for war?

YOU DON'T NEGOTIATE WITH TERRORISTS....

[mr mahs]

Originally posted by raver_mania

Seriously! Total lack of respect -

For whom Al-Qeada???

[kramadas]

Originally posted by mr mahs

For whom Al-Qeada???

Jesus christ man - can't you read???

[mr mahs]

Originally posted by raver_mania

Jesus christ man - can't you read???

What? I can read and it looks like terrorism won in Spain....

[mr mahs]

Got this off another site....

Spain will now have all elections determined by Al-Qaeda.

If Islamic law isn't introduced into Spain's legal system. Boom

If Spain does'nt recognize Allah as the only god. Boom

If Spain refuses to give Osama safe haven. Boom

Appeasement only helps the terrorists, when will the socialists realize that ?

[pattbateman]

very true, when does it end???

where do you put your foot down???

[pattbateman]

so what simons and his comrads are saying is that every time we want something all we have to do it start blowing shit up????

is that what you are saying???

hey im opperesed my neighbors who moved in are assholes who ruin our lawn, and borrow our shit and return it broken or not at all. who steal shit from the yard

should i start sabotaging their shit and blow up their house or car????

so i can get my point accross??

i bet they will move then???

you think asshole??

[marksimons]

so what simons and his comrads are saying is that every time we want something all we have to do it start blowing shit up????

-- erm I thought this was bush's tactics actualy...

no.

I'm not saying that.

I'm saying that the spanish bombing is a result of the iraq war.

spanish people can vote for who the fuck they like.

you get pissy when we tell you you voted for the wrong people, you have no fucking right to say the spanish were co-erced by bombing.

unless we have the right to tell you that you are manipulated by a biased lazy press and a political system that is swilling around in dodgy money, nepostism, lies and corruption.

and on top of that your votes don't even count because there are people who fiddle the electoral process to make sure bush wins.

no.

this whole issue this whole war, it's a fucking mess.

when will it stop?

how many more bombings?

I didn't want this war in iraq, in afghanistan.

I didn't want the bombs in bali, spain, and wherever else they have been.

but it's happening.

and if we keep bombing, keep invading, keep killing, then I know, I fucking know from looking at Israel and palestine, that this will just spiral out of control.

when will it end? when we've had a terroist use a nuke on a metropolis?

will we then be proved that you were all right and that this is a danger.

then what after that? will america use nukes? will you start nuking out the terrorists?

seriously, where will it fucking stop.

oil is only going to keep running out.

if things stay the way they are the divide between rich and poor will only grow, poverty, high child death rates and no hope, these are the causes of terrorism.

killing civilians, that causes terrorism too.

violence is not the long term solution to any of this.

we need to not be afriad.

Fear leads to Anger. Anger leads to Hate. Hate leads to suffering.

for everyone, whether that's scared americans who hate al quaeda or scared arabs who hate america.

no-one wins by the hate and violence.

we know this.

american's don't know the real price of war.

when was the last war on american soil?

when was the last american city levelled by bombing, where are the mass graves in america?

europe has had two world wars on its soil, millions dead, the cost of war was visible, tangible, and still is, almost every day I see a church that was bombed out in the second world war.

war doesn't solve anything, the way this 'war' is being faught just makes things worse.

I accept that in exceptional circumstances we may have to use violence, that is unavoidable.

but it should not be a standard piece of policy, where a country can invade, or bomb ANY OTHER COUNTRY at will, for it's own 'security'.

look.

the reasons for the war was BS. this is a con, a fucking neocon jobs, the neocons don't give a shit about really stopping terrorism.

look at the history, so long as the deaths are far away from american shores then the US gov will keep supporting it. they don't give a shit, war is good business, they're securing oil deals all around the 'stans and doing a good trade in selling weapons to governments who have to deal with their own internal terrorism.

this is the cold war gone hot, with an even more elusive enemy than communists...

seriously, have you guys stopped to think what you would feel like if you got killed by a terroist bomb. or your mother, or your sister, or your brother, father...

but conversely, have you EVER EVER tried to think what it must be like to have your family killed by the people liberating you?

would you feel different? I'm pretty sure you guys here would say that you would want to kill the terrorists.

but put yourselves in an iraqi's shoes, or an afghani, imagine a load of cluster bombs fell near where you live, or an errant cruise missile takes down your house in the night.

are you likely to say, oh, well the americans did they best they could, in a situation like this there are bound to be civilian casualties, I'm just glad my baby girl, my wife and my son were killed in agonising pain for the liberation of my country, a liberation we didn't ask for, and a liberation that now looks like occupation and hasn't made us feel any more secure than we were, I was, under saddam.

does the word empathy mean anything to you guys?

does understanding and dealing with problems calmy and without wanting to kill more people.

how many of you people who seemingly don't mind this death and destruction, as it's for the cause, how many of you have killed anyone?

how many of you have seen a real body, ripped to shreds by a bomb, or by bullets?

how many of you have seen dead babies, killed by american bombs. families crushed in their own homes.

have you ever been in a gun battle? ever been in an air raid? ever been in a terrorist attack?

and by this I don't mean on TV, I mean in real life.

yes america experinced a tragic event on 9/11 but get it into perspective.

compared to what most other countries have suffered, that was not nothing, but well, let's just say the reaction seems a bit excessive and very heavy handed, with no respect for life that I would assume you would pick up after seeing so many civilians dead.

but no. you go bomb afghanistan and kill more civilians than died on 9/11

you go invade and bomb iraq and kill about three times as many civilians as died on 9/11

bush has played right into Al Quada's hands.

america, rather than thinking long and hard about what could cause people to take such actions, rather than doing that america has started two wars, killed thousands of civilians and in effect proved to people who want to think this way, that the country really doesn't give a shit about any lives other than american citizens.

what fucking pisses me off so much is that I know, I know for a fact that there are good people in america, people with a sense of justice and fairness. but they're not in the ascendency right now... and it's a fucking shame...

[cintron]

Originally posted by marksimons

killing civilians, that causes terrorism too.

we need to not be afriad.

Fear leads to Anger. Anger leads to Hate. Hate leads to suffering.

american's don't know the real price of war.

when was the last war on american soil?

when was the last american city levelled by bombing, where are the mass graves in america?

1.) Terrorists cause terrorism. Terrorists kill civilians. END OF STORY.

2.) Correct and if we aren't afraid, then we shouldn't be afraid to STICK UP for our own safety, since some people dont believe in christian charity and leaving us alone when we are just doing our own thing. IN case you forgot, there was a long period of time before we invaded iraq where we didnt shoot anybody from the middle east and they still killed our citizens in attacks. Not being afraid means doing the right thing even if there's a chance you may fail.

3.) Thank you Yoda. Any other earth shattering words of wisdom that aren't your own?

4.) no, assholes like YOU dont know what war is. We've had pearl harbor. We've suffered through Korea and Vietnam. We've lost family in Grenada, Mogadishu, Iraq TWICE, Afghanistan and we watched the largest attack ever staged hit home right in downtown manhattan. It killed more people than the attacks at pearl harbor, and this time it was civilians. When have YOU seen war come to your home? You haven't, so get your nose out of the air and shut the fuck up. Your family isnt lying in some unmarked grave after millions of tons of concrete made their remains unidentifiable.

5.) The last war on american soil was September 9th, 2001. That's when the terrorists declared WAR on us. They brought the fight to america. If you think i'm being metaphorical, you tell that to the three thousand families of the dead that it isn't a war. It was just a bunch of upstarts on an aircraft with boxcutters.

6.) See Manhattan. See Manhattan.

When was the last BRITISH city damaged by bombing? Where are YOUR mass graves? When's the last time YOU woke up in the morning and saw two skyscrapers disintegrate in the largest city in the world?

Be quiet. You tried too hard to make your point and you went far over the line of decency to the point of insulting ignorance. You dont have a CLUE of the impact of your words.

People like you make me sick. People like you are why there is so much evil in this world, becuase you would rather turn a blind eye to wrongdoings and wrap yourself in the cloak of indifference.

I've had it with people like you. The only difference between you and the terrorists is that you dont pull the trigger. You simply allow the gunman to get in place.

[toddoliver]

I am glad that I live in AMERICA & served in the AIR FORCE.

It makes me proud that when my country is sucker punched we just start kickin ass. Our country was founded by some ass kickers called patriots. The patriots gave us the right to bear arms. Now that means if a country dose not like the way we defend AMERICA come on over we can show you what that right to bear arms thing is about!

and about this

how many of you have seen a real body, ripped to shreds by a bomb, or by bullets?

how many of you have seen dead babies, killed by american bombs. families crushed in their own homes.

I have seen the bodys now the families i see it like this

It's there family there babies or my family & babies I will do what it takes so it is not mine!!

[mrmatas2277]

Originally posted by raver_mania

It wasn't their war to begin with, now they joined, and have become a target. Why would they NOT want to back out? Possibly they don't exhibit the same "cowboy" mentality the US does?

they were backing their Allie...it happens all the time...so b/c ur enemy (the group that u have joined the US to fight) attacks u, b/c of ur involvment...u say back off? break ties? what kind of message are u sending to Al-Queda and ETA?? that ur govt' will bend to ur terrorism tactics??

[igloo]

Originally posted by cintron

1.) Terrorists cause terrorism. Terrorists kill civilians. END OF STORY.

2.) Correct and if we aren't afraid, then we shouldn't be afraid to STICK UP for our own safety, since some people dont believe in christian charity and leaving us alone when we are just doing our own thing. IN case you forgot, there was a long period of time before we invaded iraq where we didnt shoot anybody from the middle east and they still killed our citizens in attacks. Not being afraid means doing the right thing even if there's a chance you may fail.

3.) Thank you Yoda. Any other earth shattering words of wisdom that aren't your own?

4.) no, assholes like YOU dont know what war is. We've had pearl harbor. We've suffered through Korea and Vietnam. We've lost family in Grenada, Mogadishu, Iraq TWICE, Afghanistan and we watched the largest attack ever staged hit home right in downtown manhattan. It killed more people than the attacks at pearl harbor, and this time it was civilians. When have YOU seen war come to your home? You haven't, so get your nose out of the air and shut the fuck up. Your family isnt lying in some unmarked grave after millions of tons of concrete made their remains unidentifiable.

5.) The last war on american soil was September 9th, 2001. That's when the terrorists declared WAR on us. They brought the fight to america. If you think i'm being metaphorical, you tell that to the three thousand families of the dead that it isn't a war. It was just a bunch of upstarts on an aircraft with boxcutters.

6.) See Manhattan. See Manhattan.

When was the last BRITISH city damaged by bombing? Where are YOUR mass graves? When's the last time YOU woke up in the morning and saw two skyscrapers disintegrate in the largest city in the world?

Be quiet. You tried too hard to make your point and you went far over the line of decency to the point of insulting ignorance. You dont have a CLUE of the impact of your words.

People like you make me sick. People like you are why there is so much evil in this world, becuase you would rather turn a blind eye to wrongdoings and wrap yourself in the cloak of indifference.

I've had it with people like you. The only difference between you and the terrorists is that you dont pull the trigger. You simply allow the gunman to get in place.

I was all prepared to respond to the bile offered by marksimons, and then I read this on point response by Cintron. Excellent job Cintron, seriously.

I would just like to add one thing to your excellent response:

marksimons said : "what fucking pisses me off so much is that I know, I know for a fact that there are good people in america"...

Guess what marksimons, there are plenty of "good" people in Europe too who think your thinking and positions are reprehensible. Stick your condescending bullshit up your ass.

[marksimons]

ahahahah

who suffered more from vietnam.

america. or vietnam. or cambodia or laos.

go on. ask yourself that one.

I believe mexico city is the largest city in the world....

"When was the last BRITISH city damaged by bombing? Where are YOUR mass graves? When's the last time YOU woke up in the morning and saw two skyscrapers disintegrate in the largest city in the world?"

we've had irish terrorism for a number of years, I can't remember the last one but it seemed like we had at least one a year until a couple of years ago. there have been some big ones in the nintees, but the IRA are really pussies as they always phone in warnings, they realise that if they actually killed hundreds of people it might do their cause more harm than good.

we negociated with the IRA, why? because we had to. simple, if the government didn't then they could have caused some serious trouble.

in 1996 a 3000lb bomb went off in the center of manchester, 200 people injured, courtesy of the IRA.

there was a big bomb in london in 1996 as well, ira too.

our mass graves are in france...

"IN case you forgot, there was a long period of time before we invaded iraq where we didnt shoot anybody from the middle east and they still killed our citizens in attacks"

hmmm... which period would this be? the US helped put the Ba'ath party in power. the us put a dictator in iran, in brazil, in chile, in argentina, in guatamala, the US bombed the fuck out of vietnam and cambodia and cambodia was going on until 1975.

the us supported arab terrorism in the 1980s to get rid of the russians in afghanistan.

the us armed saddam. as did the rest of the west.

your country may not have invaded but it didn't need to invade to kill.

then there's the whole economics of this as well...

but you don't get it.

if 9/11 was an act of war to the americans, what was afghanistan to the arabs? you killed as many civilians there as on 9/11

in iraq you've killed more.

what's the moral difference? civilians still die. familes are still destroyed.

"becuase you would rather turn a blind eye to wrongdoings and wrap yourself in the cloak of indifference"

ha. I am trying to pull up wrongdoings by both sides...

a cloak of indifference, paying for myself to go to a united nations conference in new york (I was there for sept 11th 2003, interesting experience) about human security and dignity. being involved in politics, running for chair of a youth political organisation, being on the international committee of same organisation, trying to meet people from around . yes. that sure sounds like indifference to me...

you know two places I want to go this year guys?

Terhan and Israel...

I want to get out there and talk with people in the arab world, talk with people in the western world, find out concerns, hopes and ideas.

[cintron]

you go ahead and go right to Tehran and Israel. Dont forget to wear a shirt that says "BRITISH AND PROUD"

When you come back in a bodybag, i wont shed the smallest tear.