marcodavalos Posted May 6 Report Share Posted May 6 First of ... a few points that make things a bit more clear for those who don't understand/haven't cared to learn how democracies work around the world.The concept of democracy and pluralism is routed in most democratic countries. Freedom of speech and respect for intellectual thought are key elements in ALL democracies.The main difference is the structure of power. There is no democracy around the world, except in ours in the US, where there are two political parties so deeply rooted and powerful that cancel any other exterior party to emerge.In every other country, pluralism of political parties brings with it political inequilibrium. Things are tougher to achieve this way. It is one of the problems of third world democratic countries.But .. is this bad? I don't think so. If we accept that the democratic process is the way to go, we have to understand that the road is bumpy, but has an end.Why do I bring this up? Because the misconception of the Middle East without a democracy. Iran has a democracy. Imperfect and unjust, just like many of the third world's democracies. Change will come from within Iran without help from abroad. It will sooner or later shape a true democracy pushed by the younger generation. But it will be "THEIR" kind of democracy.You can't force concepts and thought. When coercive force is used, you are just delaying the natural process. Religion and nationalism come before western culture. It is the Middle East afterall.Here are two reports on Iran. They describe their democracy. You can also watch it in streamingvideo.http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/foreign_correspondence/jan-june02/friedman_6-20.htmlhttp://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/jan-june03/iran_3-10.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmatas2277 Posted May 6 Report Share Posted May 6 no comment.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyman1966 Posted May 6 Report Share Posted May 6 The concept of democracy and pluralism is routed in most democratic countries. Freedom of speech and respect for intellectual thought are key elements in ALL democracies. This statement alone eliminates Iran as a democracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcodavalos Posted May 6 Author Report Share Posted May 6 no comment.... Lets bomb Teheran! On a serious note ... did you bother to watch the videos? ... it ain't "propaganda", is "culture". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcodavalos Posted May 6 Author Report Share Posted May 6 This statement alone eliminates Iran as a democracy.VICE PRES. MOHAMMAD ALI ABTAHI ( Translated ): The Iranian reality imposes many problems on the political process here. But I believe the trend and pace of democratization has been good. If you look at the West, it took 400 years to reach democracy. We have had 2,500 years of monarchy. But we have to continue the pace of reform, because if we don't, we will face two dangers, civil war or absolute dictatorship, and these are both worse than what we have now. Guyman ... watch the videos and tell me this isn't a Middle Eastern democracy. Imperfect, but democratic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmatas2277 Posted May 6 Report Share Posted May 6 Lets bomb Teheran!not necessary...i think the youth of that country are taking notice of the Ayatollah's absolute rule...things will change in that country from the inside out... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyman1966 Posted May 6 Report Share Posted May 6 They are trying. The story about the girl in the pink is nice. The story about the punk rock guy is a good step. But, I ask YOU - Would you stand on the street corner there talking against the government? But - you would have no problem doing the same here. My point is - that you said - your words - "Freedom of speech and respect for intellectual thought are key elements in ALL democracies". That is not true in today's Iran and 6 years of some progress in personal freedoms do not make it a true democracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcodavalos Posted May 6 Author Report Share Posted May 6 They are trying. The story about the girl in the pink is nice. The story about the punk rock guy is a good step. But, I ask YOU - Would you stand on the street corner there talking against the government? But - you would have no problem doing the same here. My point is - that you said - your words - "Freedom of speech and respect for intellectual thought are key elements in ALL democracies". That is not true in today's Iran and 6 years of some progress in personal freedoms do not make it a true democracy.I follow you. They are key elements in all developed democracies. The use of coercive force by the Iranian fundamentalists is backfiring, as it leads to the growth of a solid democracy from within.To perfection a democracy you need to earn it gradually. The US' early democratic days were not of harmony necessarily, not to mention slavery. You heard in the report that 60 % of college students are women ... education and awareness are crucial. And young Iranians are learning what they don't want/need and what they do.Third world countries have similar problems, change fundamentalists for power families/groups ... note I said similar, not same. Without going too far, every one praised the ex-President Fujimori of my native country, Peru, and the situation was closer to Iran than to the US in those days .. that is if you were opposition. Do elections = democracy?Do this reports leave us with a better understanding of one of our axis of evil? I go back a few lines up ... education and awareness are crucial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmatas2277 Posted May 6 Report Share Posted May 6 Do elections = democracy?of course not...look at Iraq prior to the invasion.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyman1966 Posted May 6 Report Share Posted May 6 I see your point - but I'm still not drunk enough to say that Iran is not one of the "evil" governments. As the youth start to scream for more rights - we'll see how fundamental Islam responds. History does not bode well for the youth movement to survive. That's the difference... without knowing much about Peru (except that Jimmy played there once), the youth there were not working against religion - just probably corrupt politics. In Iran they have both to contend with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcodavalos Posted May 6 Author Report Share Posted May 6 of course not...look at Iraq prior to the invasion....We are installing elections and a system for elections in Iraq.No deep rooted democratic values ... as Iran has ... but they are axis of evil. With all their imperfections, I see Iran's pesudo-democracy stronger and long lasting than the one Iraq will have.Europeans used the term assimilation in Africa, to the westernization process during the colonial days. Are we going to use assimilation in Iraq?Mark this concept ... for prove/refutal in 2 decades ... Iran will be the model in the Middle East, not Iraq. Ironically, Iranians had to go thru a Fundamentalist Revolution to achieve it. Something that would never have happened if the Shah and his family were still there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obby Posted May 6 Report Share Posted May 6 Why do I bring this up? Because the misconception of the Middle East without a democracy. Iran has a democracy. Imperfect and unjust, just like many of the third world's democracies. Change will come from within Iran without help from abroad. It will sooner or later shape a true democracy pushed by the younger generation. But it will be "THEIR" kind of democracy.http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/foreign_correspondence/jan-june02/friedman_6-20.htmlhttp://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/jan-june03/iran_3-10.htmlTurkey is another perfect example. The majority of the population are Muslims and they have shown the world that democracy does work regardless of their religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmatas2277 Posted May 6 Report Share Posted May 6 We are installing elections and a system for elections in Iraq.No deep rooted democratic values ... as Iran has ... but they are axis of evil. With all their imperfections, I see Iran's pesudo-democracy stronger and long lasting than the one Iraq will have.Europeans used the term assimilation in Africa, to the westernization process during the colonial days. Are we going to use assimilation in Iraq?Mark this concept ... for prove/refutal in 2 decades ... Iran will be the model in the Middle East, not Iraq. Ironically, Iranians had to go thru a Fundamentalist Revolution to achieve it. Something that would never have happened if the Shah and his family were still there.i was referring to ur "elections= democracy?" statement...i think we should give Iraq's democracy a chance...Obby brought up a good point, look at Turkey...that might very well be the model for Democracy in a Muslim world.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobeton Posted May 6 Report Share Posted May 6 let the process of democracy occur on it's own without outside interference. let the people define the type of democracy they wish to have... they need not emulate others. if people want democracy bad enough then they will rise up, and be willing to fight and/or die for it. After all the US did it, and won independence which help to foster democracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obby Posted May 6 Report Share Posted May 6 let the process of democracy occur on it's own without outside interference. let the people define the type of democracy they wish to have... they need not emulate others. if people want democracy bad enough then they will rise up, and be willing to fight and/or die for it. After all the US did it, and won independence which help to foster democracy.Another sit back and do nothing attitude.That's like saying: "Let children learn math on their own. No need for mathematicians to teach them. If they want to learn math they will learn it eventually on their own."Nice!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobeton Posted May 6 Report Share Posted May 6 Another sit back and do nothing attitude.That's like saying: "Let children learn math on their own. No need for mathematicians to teach them. If they want to learn math they will learn it eventually on their own."Nice!!!!!if you need me to explain what I wrote, then I would be more then happy to... your interpretation of the same is obviously flawed. if you're familiar with history then, my explaining what I wrote would not be necessary. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmatas2277 Posted May 6 Report Share Posted May 6 let the process of democracy occur on it's own without outside interference. let the people define the type of democracy they wish to have... they need not emulate others. if people want democracy bad enough then they will rise up, and be willing to fight and/or die for it. After all the US did it, and won independence which help to foster democracy.i agree with ya...but sometimes there are circumstances (such as Iraq, ie we invaded and took out Saddam) that we have to stick our noses in...i agree...the "want" of freedom should come from within and from the people of that nation... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobeton Posted May 6 Report Share Posted May 6 i agree with ya...but sometimes there are circumstances (such as Iraq, ie we invaded and took out Saddam) that we have to stick our noses in...i agree...the "want" of freedom should come from within and from the people of that nation...I agree... there are times when circumstances required outside assistance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmatas2277 Posted May 6 Report Share Posted May 6 I agree... there are times when circumstances required outside assistance.you and i have been agreeing a lot lately...u owe me a beer (i agree).. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobeton Posted May 6 Report Share Posted May 6 you and i have been agreeing a lot lately...u owe me a beer (i agree)..LOL do you ever go out anymore? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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