Madrid bombings

[Guest antonio]

Yeah, like you knew something about the world.

[Guest endymion]

bush's reasons for the war, right or wrong, had nothing to do with oil.

If you're under the impression that you know what Bush's justification for that war was then I'm all ears. I spent a week asking before conference and nobody had an answer. Still real curious.

My perception is that al Qaeda has clear goals and they are learning how to pull the world's strings in order to get their way. They are becoming more efficient and more surgical. They are extremely goal-oriented and most of their operations are succeeding. They are good at going in, accomplishing something, and getting out.

My perception on the activities of the US is that we have forgotten how to pull the world's strings to get our way. We are becoming less efficient and we were never surgical. We have no clear goals so we can't accomplish them. We go in unilaterally and then we get stuck in quagmires that end up killing lots and lots and lots of people.

We are losing the war on terror.

[ryan2772]

If you're under the impression that you know what Bush's justification for that war was then I'm all ears.  I spent a week asking before conference and nobody had an answer.  Still real curious.

My perception is that al Qaeda has clear goals and they are learning how to pull the world's strings in order to get their way.  They are becoming more efficient and more surgical.  They are extremely goal-oriented and most of their operations are succeeding.  They are good at going in, accomplishing something, and getting out.

My perception on the activities of the US is that we have forgotten how to pull the world's strings to get our way.  We are becoming less efficient and we were never surgical.  We have no clear goals so we can't accomplish them.  We go in unilaterally and then we get stuck in quagmires that end up killing lots and lots and lots of people.

We are losing the war on terror.

well said, tech.

[Guest JMT]

If you're under the impression that you know what Bush's justification for that war was then I'm all ears.  I spent a week asking before conference and nobody had an answer.  Still real curious.

My perception is that al Qaeda has clear goals and they are learning how to pull the world's strings in order to get their way.  They are becoming more efficient and more surgical.  They are extremely goal-oriented and most of their operations are succeeding.  They are good at going in, accomplishing something, and getting out.

My perception on the activities of the US is that we have forgotten how to pull the world's strings to get our way.  We are becoming less efficient and we were never surgical.  We have no clear goals so we can't accomplish them.  We go in unilaterally and then we get stuck in quagmires that end up killing lots and lots and lots of people.

We are losing the war on terror.

it could have been bc he didnt like his mustache, but it wasnt oil.  thats just an assinine argument.

the war on terror wont be won quickly, maybe even not by this generation.  which is exactly what bush said after 9/11.  

one strategic and tragic bombing is a sign that we are losing??  i dont think so. it was def a loss. but there is no stat to show what attacks might have been prevented so far.  so i dont agree. all they have to do is set off a bomb in public.  its always easier to be on offense than defense, that just logical.  the longer we go without incident in this country IS "winning" in my book.  but we cant protect other countries.  all we can do is share intel together.

look, weeks ago i posted that i gave up arguing politics on here for lent.   im still in a junkie-loving mood from WMC.

[Guest endymion]

one strategic and tragic bombing is a sign that we are losing??

That bombing was not strategic, it was tactical. It was a planned operation with a clear short-term goal that succeeded.

Our operations in Afghanistan and Iraq are strategic. We're dropping 20,000 pound MOAB fuel-air bombs in Afghanistan and we don't even know who we're killing with them. The justifications and benefits from Iraq are so unclear that we can't even seem to have a conversation here about what they are.

You can't win if you don't even know what your goals are. We are not on a path toward winning because we never identified our goals and built a consensus with our allies before we started invading countries, killing people, and detaining prisoners without due process.

al Qaeda does have clear goals, they do put intelligent thought into how to accomplish those goals efficiently and effectively. They have a broad international organization with reliable support. When they kill people they do it for clear reasons that they have spelled out in advance. They are focused intently on their goals and they are succeeding.

JMT, you have to stick up for conservatives here because you're one of the only ones!

[Guest JMT]

you are mixing topics here. iraq and terrorism are not one in the same. iraq may be totally screwed up in your eyes, but homeland security is looking great to me. (knock on wood.) and since you dont think there was/is any logical connection between iraq and al queda to warrant any action in the first place, you shouldnt assume they are the same topic in this discussion. iraq and terrorism should be 2 separate topics.

i dont think i am one of the ONLY ones, just one of the few who actually speak up here.

and im a "moderate conservative!" there are some issues i dont go all the way on.

[Guest JMT]

but its better without me, then you all can just agree with each other all day long! ;D

[Guest endymion]

You just summarized my biggest problem with Iraq precisely. Iraq has nothing to do with the war on terrorism. The terrorists do seem to know what they are doing, don't they? That's a problem because it's pretty obvious that we don't really know how to stop them.

We invaded Iraq instead of spending our resources on preventing that Madrid bombing from happening. We dropped enormous 20,000 pound fuel-air bombs haphazardly on Afghanistan, killing unknown people randomly in the hopes that we might accidentally take out somebody who could hopefully somehow matter. Somebody who if we killed them, it would somehow swing things back into our control. That was our plan. All of the evil people live in caves in Afghanistan, right? We just need big bombs, big bombs will kill the bad people even if we don't know exactly which ones they are. Kill 'em all and let God sort them out.

Well we missed. Their response in Madrid proves that. They killed a couple of hundred of us very cleanly in response, swung an entire country against the Bush doctrine, and now they are going to kill more of us at some point. We have no idea when or where or how but gee it's real obvious now that it's coming and that it's going to be pretty bad at some point. We also know that they will do it in a way that produces maximum possible benefit to them, something like topping an entire empire by wiping out an entire city. Smart evil people who are sympathetic to these people specifically as a rejection of the Bush doctrine control nuclear weapons. How is it that we are winning again?

Spanish voters get that and they are real pissed off at their government for siding with Bush. Can American voters figure it out in time?

[Guest antonio]

Hats off to Techjunkie!!!!

JMT: stop being such a conservative and typical republican for christ's sake. Realize that it takes courage to oppose your own government, but George Bush's gang of killers and corrupt, will take us all down in ruins( just like the Roman Empire). If U.S. actions keep going the way they have been, we will have to hide our American passports when we travel. Get it?

[Guest JMT]

Hats off to Techjunkie!!!!

 JMT: stop being such a conservative and typical republican for christ's sake.  Realize that it takes courage to oppose your own government, but George Bush's gang of killers and corrupt, will take us all down in ruins( just like the Roman Empire).  If U.S. actions keep going the way they have been, we will have to hide our American passports when we travel.  Get it?

is that supposed to make me laugh?

conservatives didnt ruin the romans.

like is said ALREADY, the thread is yours.

[Guest endymion]

I do have a friend who just spent the last nine months traveling internationally who did hide his American passport the whole time. Antonio, you met him at Radio One. Dave, that kite boarder who's teaching in Hattaras now. He had to pretend to be Argentine, he had a cover story on that and everything. People already do hate us that much.

Don't pick on JMT too much though, he's one of the few thoughtful and intelligent Bushies. We need him or we'll all just be agreeing with each other all the time...

[Guest antonio]

I know, believe me, I had to cancel my surf trip to Bali, Indonesia last summer because of fear to show my American passport. I lost a $500 deposit for the charter tour.

[Guest JMT]

I know,  believe me,  I had to cancel my surf trip to Bali, Indonesia last summer because of fear to show my American passport.  I lost a $500 deposit for the charter tour.

somehow, i dont think you would have had any problem passing yourself off as something else.

[Guest JMT]

Don't pick on JMT too much though, he's one of the few thoughtful and intelligent Bushies.  We need him or we'll all just be agreeing with each other all the time...

there is a mutual respect for politics here.

[ryan2772]

I know,  believe me,  I had to cancel my surf trip to Bali, Indonesia last summer because of fear to show my American passport.  I lost a $500 deposit for the charter tour.

that's freakin ridiculous. i know there was a horrible bombing there, but that's no way to live your life.

[Guest antonio]

Hey, it's just an example of how bad things could get. It was not only the bombings, its just being in Indonesia with an American passport. If you think it's all peaches and creme down there, go try it yourself and then talk about being ridiculous.

[ryan2772]

i understand what you mean, and i won't be going there anytime soon. but if i had already booked a trip, i would've gone.

[Guest antonio]

Yeah, I should've gone, but I was advised not to by the Consulate. I just lost $500 and not the $4,900 that the whole trip costs. I'm still planning on going on next September though.

[ryan2772]

Yeah, I should've gone, but I was advised not to by the Consulate.  I just lost $500 and not the $4,900 that the whole trip costs.  I'm still planning on going on next September though.

:-[

i stand corrected. yes, i would've listened to the consulate. f*ck the $500. ;D ;D

that would be a bad ass trip!

[Guest antonio]

............and, by the way, next trip is for the South American Music Conference at buenos Aires, Argentina. Hope to see all of you there!!!

[Guest bcnjunkie]

JMT:

Bushs' decision to invade Iraq was hardly based on a well thought out plan & proper justification, you overestimate our goverment . If we really wanted to fight terrorism we would begin by 2 major countries that provide funds and shelter: Saudi Arabia (they are not our friends like many believe, just ask any military personel that hvae been stationed in Saudi territory) and Nigeria. Nigeria poses more of a threat than Iraq (it's one of the most corrupt countries in the world who would do anything for anyone for a buck). Money is laundered through Nigeria for some of the most corrupt organizations in the world

[Guest JMT]

JMT:

Bushs' decision to invade Iraq was hardly based on a well thought out plan & proper justification, you overestimate our goverment .  If we really wanted to fight terrorism we would begin by 2 major countries that provide funds and shelter: Saudi Arabia (they are not our friends like many believe, just ask any military personel that hvae been stationed in Saudi territory) and Nigeria.  Nigeria poses more of a threat than Iraq (it's one of the most corrupt countries in the world who would do anything for anyone for a buck). Money is laundered through Nigeria for some of the most corrupt organizations in the world

unless your a US general, i dont think your qualified to make judgments on war plans.

I couldnt not agree with you more on Saudi Arabia, they are the most rotten apple of them all, but i dont see where anyone thinks they are our friends. they didnt even want us to use their airspace for Afganastan. they would slit all our throats if they thought they could get away with it.

[Guest endymion]

Right, and the Islamist terrorists that we are fighting against are very good at using places like Nigeria to move money around. They are really good at getting that money into the hands of local operatives who can use it efficiently to pull off operations that further their goals, like the Madrid bombings. Like 9/11. Like the hotel bombing in Basra to scare off foreign investments. Like the Iraq bombings designed to align the Sunnis against the Shiites. They are very good at surgical use of small amounts of force, made possible through a very robust and reliable international network that they established in advance for moving money, people, and ideas around the world. Their ideas are apparently marketable because they have lots of fans.

We on the other hand are very poor at all of those things. We are good at blowing shit up using huge amounts of very expensive force but we are clumsy about it. We don't pick clear objectives. We don't coordinate our objectives with our allies. We have no concept of efficiency. We have very little international support. Our ideas are not marketable to the people who we want to convince. The ideas coming out of Bush and his team are actually working in the Islamists favor by alienating potential allies and by providing them with counterpoint that they use to recruit their own sympathizers.

We're losing, it's real obvious.

[Guest bcnjunkie]

JMT:

you don't sound like a US General to me, so I don't think you are very qualified for a proper opinion as well. You're just agreeing with what you are told.

[Guest JMT]

We're losing, it's real obvious.

losing what? thats like playing a football game where one team is on offense, and the other is on defense for the entire game. when the score is 3-0 at the half, obviously yes, you are losing, but relatively speaking youre doing a damn good job.

we will only ever know about the instances were a bomb went off, not all the ones that were prevented. like i said, each week that goes by w/o incident in this country is a small victory.