MoveOn.org ::: Censure Bush

[Guest web_norah]

this is a chat forum and my stance on war is loud and clear....

[Guest JMT]

the country has quietly grown sick of liberals, thats why upstart FOX news surpassed CNN as the most watched cable news network.

[Guest willnole]

I love this quote, and I forget who said it but...

"If you're 18 and not a liberal than you have no heart,

but if you're 35 and not conservative you have no brain"

[ryan2772]

I love this quote, and I forget who said it but...

"If you're 18 and not a liberal than you have no heart,

but if you're 35 and not conservative you have no brain"

that IS a good one. ;D

[Guest ciaran_r]

if you go outside this country, it is astounding how other people view the American savior antics:

Yeh, Bush has really changed people's opinion of America, not everybody hates america but the way he kind of gives us a stereotype of how he thinks america is,

The average person on the street here in Ireland wouldnt have the greatest opinion on america at the moment, and as for this summer >, he wont get a warm welcome.

I honestly, and this isint exagerating(Spelling?), think he wont get a single applaud, I just dont know who will bother to clap their hands?

The US army was using shannon airport as a stop off for fuel before heading to iraq and the protests were everyday, one woman crossed the fence and started hacking one of the planes with an AXE.

Hes in for a shock if he thinks the Irish will support him,

Bertie Ahern has to because hes the Taoisoch and a puppet

and now Brazil photographs americans that enter their territory.....a taste of our own poison!

[Guest ciaran_r]

I think We can safely say Bush is a murderer >

[Guest JMT]

I think We can safely say Bush is a murderer >

to quote a classic line from 'The Big Lebowski':

"well thats just like.... your opinion, man."

I personally could care less if the Brazilian government gets their panties in a bunch from our increased border security. They didn't lose 3,000 of their citizens to terrorists. F them.

[Guest LeVeL]

to quote a classic line from 'The Big Lebowski':

         "well thats just like.... your opinion, man."

I personally could care less if the Brazilian government gets their panties in a bunch from our increased border security.  They didn't lose 3,000 of their citizens to terrorists.  F them.

But JMT the Irish dude is right, other countries view us differently since this Iraqi War, suddenly we are the big bully on the block.

But in the long run this will hurt us because if we ever ask the U.N. for help or aid again some of these countries can vote against us, because of their grudge. So we are kind of kicking ourselves in the butt.

[Guest LeVeL]

I cant wait till Bush leaves office.......the country will be so much better without him.

[Guest endymion]

I think We can safely say Bush is a murderer >

I totally agree. If we weren't such a huge untouchable superpower then Bush and Rumsfeld would be seen as a war criminals.

I don't say that just because I dislike Bush so much. I say that because bypassing an opponent's army with a military force that penetrates directly into civilian centers is generally considered a war crime. "War crime" is a subjective term though, and being the biggest bully nations in the world is one of those exceptions that will keep you from getting pinned for that. Just one of those silly loopholes.

[Guest JMT]

yeah, Saddam's decade-long REFUSAL to cooperate with UN and our gulf war resolutions had no meaning.

SADDAM CHOSE to go to war. people need to wake up! all he had to do was cooperate with the UN and he DIDNT. the world is better off without him. and they are finding more Al Queda personell hidden in Iraq every week.

[Guest JMT]

i was in europe at the beg of the war.  i was in holland, poland and germany.  all the people with brains over there are not hateful of americans.  we have our own problems and issues if they dont agree with us on something so be it.  economically we are all tied together for good.  but politically we can tell them to take a hike.

(wtf, maybe its just too late and im wasted.)

[Guest ciaran_r]

to quote a classic line from 'The Big Lebowski':

         "well thats just like.... your opinion, man."

I personally could care less if the Brazilian government gets their panties in a bunch from our increased border security.  They didn't lose 3,000 of their citizens to terrorists.  F them.

OK, When sep 11th happened I can honestly say Europe stood Still for near a month, We were in shock .

It was never done before and EVERYBODY really felt for the US, We wanted to help out as much as possible,

But if your going to say "They didnt lose 3000 to terrorists",

Then that is wrong, you cant say that, how many innocent were killed in afghanistan & Iraq. :

?

BUSH used 9/11 as an excuse to get back at the "OUL" enemy, calling it a crusade-WTF,

That shit happened when King richard was alive, It shows what a nutter he is.

And if saddam had nuclear weapons, which im sure he did, why shouldnt he have them,(AMERICA has them) I think we can say he really wouldnt have attacked America, those muslim fundamentalists hate saddam because he never gave a shit about the "protection" of Islam, so he wouldnt have joined the al queda bandwagon.

And im not sure of the whole story of this ,Maybe someone can fill the gaps,

BUT a kind of deal was struck in the late 80's/early 90's that if there was another superpower to emerge in europe, the US could attack.

Thats what i have seen, I cant give the full details :

I dont mean to offend any one here, Im just saying this from a european view( or anyone who disagrees with Bush and his fellow slayers),

I should end this but I guarantee if any of you saw the documentry filmed by an Irish crew, you would dramatically change your view of this administration,

It was the best i have ever seen, it followed Presidnt Peres in Venezula,the american sponsored news channel (which owned 6 of 7 there) showed us one angle of peres supporters "shooting" at protesters(on the rich,White american admistrated funded)side,all we could see were guys shooting over a bridge at "something".telling us that there were peaceful protesters down there

But the irish crew showed the other angle and there was nothing down there only snipers.Which is why peres's guys were shooting, The snipers started it.

Check out www.rte.ie

they funded the production ;D

[Guest ciaran_r]

i was in europe at the beg of the war.  i was in holland, poland and germany.  all the people with brains over there are not hateful of americans.

People dont hate america,( you make the best music in the world ;D) but what is happening is an argument with the UN, dosent give us much confidence in the US,

and an interference in our European Union, trying to make us let Turkey join in the EU because America has its biggest Base there, and its americas step in the door to asia/arab states.

I just wish Blair would get a grip and stand back a little from BUSH's domaneering(SPELLING?)

And as for our own leader AHERN he said yeh we back america and its war on terror,I thought IRELAND was neutral?

Its mostly down to £$£$£$£$£$£ because if it wasnt for microsoft, dell etc etc, MNC(american) in ireland, we wouldnt have the potential we have had in the last decade. ;D

[Guest JMT]

ciaran_r, i appreciate you speaking intelligently and more open minded than some americans here.  good points.

the brazil issue has really only to do with 9/11.  i dont care if they are upset over the security measures.

one last thingon Iraq, i firmly believe that the chief reason for France's refusal of any US resolutions was due to the huge business and trade that France had built with Saddam's goverment. they stood to lose a lot of money.

[Guest ciaran_r]

I dont want this to be a bridge between any members ;D

JMT: I understand you feel about the whole threat thing, and proud of how america has stood up to some scum around the world.

France has had releations with iraq untill january/feb last year,(french politicans regarding europe are also bullies in europe, they think they own us!)

9/11, i understand there is tighter security, its everywhere, in uk,france u name it, but

I was just pointing out that there is no need to exploit nationalities.

When the ira bombed england it wasnt a pretty sight, my mother was on duty in the hospital and she was irish, and the stuff they had to deal with was bad, it was a bad time to be irish in england.and for all irish nationals to be looked down on for the next ten years as they crossed into england was insulting, if you drove over to england it would be a "suspect" car. there were protests to get all irish out(understand,not all english ad the same view), which was crazy seeing as they built most of britain? >

peace out,

[Guest saintjohn]

I think We can safely say Bush is a murderer >

you can safely say it, but that doesn't make it true.

[Guest JMT]

you can safely say it, but that doesn't make it true.

werd.

[Guest saintjohn]

we can all safely say things like that because bush isn't a murderer. i can understand the use of poetic language and hyperbole, but, having encountered actual murderers, i don't use the word lightly.

[Guest endymion]

A murderer pulls the trigger. The guy who gives the orders is called something else. The term is "war criminal".

I was thinking that the bloodlust crowd who wanted eye-for-an-eye revenge after 9/11 would be satisfied after we killed all of those civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq. One count on the number of civilian deaths in Iraq alone puts the number around 10,000. Isn't that enough revenge killing?

[Guest JMT]

A murderer pulls the trigger.  The guy who gives the orders is called something else.  The term is "war criminal".

I was thinking that the bloodlust crowd who wanted eye-for-an-eye revenge after 9/11 would be satisfied after we killed all of those civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq.  One count on the number of civilian deaths in Iraq alone puts the number around 10,000.  Isn't that enough revenge killing?

wrap a turnaquet around that bleeding heart.

there are no figures to prove anything of what your saying. the US doesnt intentionally kill civilians.

[bornslippy22]

I cant wait till Bush leaves office.......the country will be so much better without him.

it might be worse without him too...

[Guest JMT]

it might be worse without him too...

WERD

[ryan2772]

it might be worse without him too...

there's only one way to find out!

[Guest endymion]

the US doesnt intentionally kill civilians.  

See that's exactly the kind of chauvanism that is causing problems. A lot of conservatives have exactly the same sort of reverence for their government that they have for their church. The US has a proud legacy of stepping on civilians intentionally.

Here's a really simple example. The Japanese bombed a bunch of valid military targets in Hawaii in 1941. It really pissed us off. We turned around and immediately launched a counterattack with the sole purpose of dropping bombs on downtown Tokyo. Most of those bombs ended up getting dropped at random on factories, power stations, and ships in the port. Including fishing vessels.

The Japanese are still pretty pissed off about that and about the hundred thousand civilians that we evaporated in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Lots of Germans are still awfully sore about the fire bombing of Dresden. Now a lot of Iraqis are pretty pissed off too. If our rationalization for killing all of those people is the 3000 dead in NYC then we need to rethink our rationalizations because that one doesn't work. We kill lots and lots and lots of civilians in just about every conflict that we get involved in. That's one giant reason why us bleeding hearts don't like to see us getting involved in wars in the first place.