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DAMN!!!! Another beheading...


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Guest endymion

If it were your dad, you'd think otherwise, but your narrow mindedness allows you to not feel the true affects of war and 9/11 here at home.

If any of the 10,000 civilians who we killed in Iraq were your dad then you would feel differently.

For some reason a lot of Americans still think that the 3,000 killed on 9/11 somehow justify the killing that we are doing in Iraq. That convenient glossing-over of our justification for killing is coming back to bite us and it's really too late to do anything about it. We're the ones who came up with the no-holds-barred rules of engagement. We are the ones who kill or capture anybody from any country with no explanation necessary. We now have to deal with the consequences. Saying "oh man, that beheading was brutal, we would never do anything like that, those people are just inhuman barbarians" makes us look like idiotic hypocrites. We have committed greater atrocities, for a longer period, at greater volume, with equally thin justification. We operate like terrorists. We have become the bad guys.

To me, he's a hero, not a acceptable target.

If he is a hero to our side then he is an valid target to the other side. Not such a difficult concept to grasp? Both American and Israeli forces target and kill known and suspected "bomb makers". Engineers who develop munitions for militants, the same exact role as that Apache technician. We can't take a dose of our own medicine? That's pretty cowardly.

I'm not rooting for the guys who sliced this guy's head off. I am personally an engineer who has worked on defense projects that have almost certainly killed people. If you think I'm rooting for the guys who killed this engineer then you're grasping at the simplest possible and most incorrect reading of my posts. I don't want me dead but I can understand why a militant Islamist might consider me fair game. Get it?

What I'm saying is: "well duh, we gave them a reason to be pissed off, and they are using the same reasoning and justification that we are, so we can't condemn them as inhuman". The only thing really that differs between what they did to this engineer and what we're doing is tactics. We kill civilians from orbit like cowards. They do it in person with knives because that kind of direct, personal bravado scares the crap out of Americans who can only stomach killing strangers from 15 miles away by remote control.

As for Putin, my own president lied to me more times than I can even list here, about very important things. Blair too. I'm supposed to believe a Russian prime minister when I can't trust my own president? A panel of people with security clearance who work for me released a report this week contradicting the 9/11-Iraq link. There is no consensus even within the government that launched the unilateral attack. If Saddam did have plans to attack us after 9/11 then why didn't he do it in the two years that it took us to go out and get a war fired up against him? He had plenty of time? He was openly hostile to us and we were about to invade him, nothing to lose. The simplest explanation is that he couldn't.

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Guest saintjohn

techjunkie, i'm glad to see you're back with a vengeance. i've missed reading your posts.

btw, you mentioned an apache video. if it's the same one i've seen (there are at least two versions of this particular video floating around - one has been "conveniently" edited), here's the story on those "farmers" from that right-wing propaganda machine, abc news:

The video opens with the helicopter tracking a man in a pickup truck north of Baghdad on Dec. 1, one day after the 4th Infantry Division engaged in the bloodiest battles with Iraqi insurgents since the end of major combat.

The pilots watch as the man pulls over and gets out to talk to another man waiting by a larger truck.

"Uh, big truck over here," one of the pilots is heard saying. "He's having a little powwow."

The pickup driver looks around, then reaches into his vehicle, takes out a tube-shaped object that appears to be about 4 or 5 feet long, and runs away from the road into a field. He drops the object in the field and heads back to the trucks.

"I got a guy running throwing a weapon," one of the pilots says. Retired Gen. Jack Keane, an ABCNEWS consultant who viewed the tape, said the object looked like a rocket-propelled grenade launcher, "or something larger than a rifle."

The pilots check in with their operational commander, who is monitoring the situation. When they tell him they are sure the man was carrying a weapon, he tells them: "Engage. Smoke him."

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/US/apache_video_040109-1.html

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Guest shannon_coolj.

If it were your dad, you'd think otherwise, but your narrow mindedness allows you to not feel the true affects of war and 9/11 here at home.

If any of the 10,000 civilians who we killed in Iraq were your dad then you would feel differently.

For some reason a lot of Americans still think that the 3,000 killed on 9/11 somehow justify the killing that we are doing in Iraq. That convenient glossing-over of our justification for killing is coming back to bite us and it's really too late to do anything about it. We're the ones who came up with the no-holds-barred rules of engagement. We are the ones who kill or capture anybody from any country with no explanation necessary. We now have to deal with the consequences. Saying "oh man, that beheading was brutal, we would never do anything like that, those people are just inhuman barbarians" makes us look like idiotic hypocrites. We have committed greater atrocities, for a longer period, at greater volume, with equally thin justification. We operate like terrorists. We have become the bad guys.

To me, he's a hero, not a acceptable target.

If he is a hero to our side then he is an valid target to the other side. Not such a difficult concept to grasp? Both American and Israeli forces target and kill known and suspected "bomb makers". Engineers who develop munitions for militants, the same exact role as that Apache technician. We can't take a dose of our own medicine? That's pretty cowardly.

I'm not rooting for the guys who sliced this guy's head off. I am personally an engineer who has worked on defense projects that have almost certainly killed people. If you think I'm rooting for the guys who killed this engineer then you're grasping at the simplest possible and most incorrect reading of my posts. I don't want me dead but I can understand why a militant Islamist might consider me fair game. Get it?

What I'm saying is: "well duh, we gave them a reason to be pissed off, and they are using the same reasoning and justification that we are, so we can't condemn them as inhuman". The only thing really that differs between what they did to this engineer and what we're doing is tactics. We kill civilians from orbit like cowards. They do it in person with knives because that kind of direct, personal bravado scares the crap out of Americans who can only stomach killing strangers from 15 miles away by remote control.

As for Putin, my own president lied to me more times than I can even list here, about very important things. Blair too. I'm supposed to believe a Russian prime minister when I can't trust my own president? A panel of people with security clearance who work for me released a report this week contradicting the 9/11-Iraq link. There is no consensus even within the government that launched the unilateral attack. If Saddam did have plans to attack us after 9/11 then why didn't he do it in the two years that it took us to go out and get a war fired up against him? He had plenty of time? He was openly hostile to us and we were about to invade him, nothing to lose. The simplest explanation is that he couldn't.

no, no, no...

you keep saying "WE" are doing killing in iraq, "WE" gave them a reason to be pissed of.

Don't say "WE" techjunkie, because it's not "we". it's our president and his administration and i can promise you, that many americans, the families of nicholas berg and of the guy recently beheaded did not want all this to happen.

i am not surprised that it happened, but none of what you said above justifies it. it's wrong and it's evil...so you wonder why so many people get upset about it?

i don't believe in war. i don't believe in killing anything or anyone. but it puts me in a dilemma because we have to defend ourselves.

my only solution (although it comes with a lot of problems...but so does going to war) is to put our money into defense, not offense.

if we never went to iraq, we'd have all that money to spend for better security

you know, techjunkie, i talked to clark yesterday (remember him? ;) ) and you probably didn't know this, but clark was in the british military and fought in two wars and was behind the scenes for years

i told him about this post and he said that we can fight about this all we want, but (like i said in my earlier post), we don't know what's going on behind closed doors. we just don't know...and we never will, because even the media doesn't know.

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Guest endymion

i told him about this post and he said that we can fight about this all we want, but (like i said in my earlier post), we don't know what's going on behind closed doors. we just don't know...and we never will, because even the media doesn't know.

Clark is right, but he's only partly right. We can't tell what the truth is but we can tell that what our government tells us is not the truth. In some cases that's all we need to know in order to make decisions, like voting decisions.

We know that what we hear from the extremists is not the truth either, as St John points out. (Hi St John!!) That does make me feel a bit better about those farmers, but that was only one of about 20 clips that I have seen recently along the same lines. We are not looking good to the world, we look just like those Nazis that you detest when you're watching Schindler's List. Have you seen the one that actually aired on CNN of a young Marine wounding a soldier a hundred yards away, turning and smiling and chatting with the camera and making racial slurs, and then aiming at the wounded and unarmed man rolling around on the ground and killing him? There are lots and lots of laws against that even in this conflict, but none of that matters to an empire.

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Guest shannon_coolj.

Yeah, you're right about that. We're not looking good to the world.

No, I haven't seen that footage of the you Marine.

However, you know that they're all trained to be killers. Watching Full Metal Jacket (one of my favorite movies!) again the other night reinforced this idea.

Our soldiers are trained to be killing machines. On Pvt. Joker's helmet in the movie, it says "Born To Kill." That says it all.

So does this:

Drill Instructor: God has a hard-on for Marines. Because we kill everything we see.

Joker: How can you shoot women and children?

Gunner: Easy... you just don't lead 'em so much.

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Guest saintjohn

techjunkie, we can argue endlessly about iraq, but i certainly agree that the usa is losing the global public relations war.

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Guest durrtylexx

techjunkie, we can argue endlessly about iraq, but i certainly agree that the usa is losing the global public relations war.

Thats the truth broda... :(

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techjunkie, i'm glad to see you're back with a vengeance. i've missed reading your posts.

btw, you mentioned an apache video. if it's the same one i've seen (there are at least two versions of this particular video floating around - one has been "conveniently" edited), here's the story on those "farmers" from that right-wing propaganda machine, abc news:

The video opens with the helicopter tracking a man in a pickup truck north of Baghdad on Dec. 1, one day after the 4th Infantry Division engaged in the bloodiest battles with Iraqi insurgents since the end of major combat.

The pilots watch as the man pulls over and gets out to talk to another man waiting by a larger truck.

"Uh, big truck over here," one of the pilots is heard saying. "He's having a little powwow."

The pickup driver looks around, then reaches into his vehicle, takes out a tube-shaped object that appears to be about 4 or 5 feet long, and runs away from the road into a field. He drops the object in the field and heads back to the trucks.

"I got a guy running throwing a weapon," one of the pilots says. Retired Gen. Jack Keane, an ABCNEWS consultant who viewed the tape, said the object looked like a rocket-propelled grenade launcher, "or something larger than a rifle."

The pilots check in with their operational commander, who is monitoring the situation. When they tell him they are sure the man was carrying a weapon, he tells them: "Engage. Smoke him."

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/US/apache_video_040109-1.html

great post!

Tech junkie is just like moore or franken. Left Wing Bomb throwers that distort the truth.

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Guest endymion

Tech junkie is just like moore or franken. Left Wing Bomb throwers that distort the truth.

Somebody has to balance out the Rush Limbaughs and Saleens. There are two sides to everything, forgetting that is what is getting us into trouble. Americans are not the only humans in the world, the American right consistently forgets that.

As for distorting the truth, go watch some of those video clips. Watch the CNN video of the pumped up Marine murdering a wounded Iraqi. Read first-hand accounts of US raids from real Iraqis. Look at the naked pyramid photos. We are running around acting like the Nazi soldiers in Schindler's List. We really are. Really truly. Not a conspiracy theory, it really is happening to real humans because of Americans like you.

Saleen, if there were Chinese helicopters flying around destroying houses in New Jersey would you not be one of the first to sign up to decapitate a Chinese helicopter technician? Once you succeeded in doing so the Chinese media would crucify you as a barbarian, but you would consider yourself a hero.

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Guest trancepriest

Its quite interesting how Saleen can look at what Putin says versus the findings of our own 9/11 Commission Panel. The commission staff released its findings Wednesday saying that there was no "collaborative relationship" between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda -- challenging an assertion Bush and Vice President Cheney have made for the past two years.

Even our own government said that there was no planning between Iraq and Al Qaeda. Do you think George Tenet the director of the CIA resigned for no reason?

Saleen shows an inclination to react from an emotional state rather than one from reason. To follow a consistent line of reasoning is near impossible for him. Psychologically he's prone to make decisons from looking at things from an emotional context. Example:

The News: "A Spanish guy robs a bank."

Saleen: "All spanish people are criminals and should be banned from Broward."

Obviously such a childish state of reasoning can't co-exist amongst mature intellectuals or even society as a whole. We only give you focus Saleen so we can help you increase your reasoning skills. Please try to follow a line of reasoning... if you can somehow reach the step of providing evidence then we would applaud your progress. Just look at his future response to this post for further evidence of his emotional irrationality.

The truth is that no weapons of mass destruction have been found in Iraq and no evidence have been found linking Iraq with the 9/11 attacks. That is the truth.

And I would like to take the time to give you the dictionaries meaning of evidence:

evidence n. 1. the data on which a conclusion or judgment can be established. 2. Something indicative; an outward sign: the house showed evidence of neglect. 3. The statements and materials objects admissible as testimony in a cout of law.

Whatever Putin said after 9/11 is not evidence.. now if he gave data supporting what he said... then that would be more admissible in a line of reasoning.

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Guest endymion

Saleen shows an inclination to react from an emotional state rather than one from reason.

I agree, and I wouldn't care about what he thinks if it weren't for the fact that a loud and vocal minority of Americans also make decisions based on racisim, xenophobia and knee-jerk chauvanistic emotion. That sort of attitude is only possible by dehumanizing the people who you need to kill in order to further your political agenda.

There is a historic new tool in this conflict for preventing people from being dehumanized and then erased. This is one of the first conflicts in history (Kosovo was the first that I know of) where the net reaches into both sides of the conflict and allows civilians on both sides to communicate. We have the power sitting here in our safe and secure living rooms to do what the CIA and the Pentagon sort of forgot to do: talk to some Iraqis about what is going on. We can make our own informed decisions so that we aren't depending on a liar like our president to force feed us his xenophobic opinions. It is beyond somebody like Saleen's estimation of an Iraqi to think that one could work a computer or connect to the net or [gasp] speak English. Most Iraqi bloggers speak better English than either Saleen or Bush.

Reading about what life is like in Iraq now for Iraqis makes you feel their anger and frustration. We have taken away their future. Read blogs like Raed In The Middle and feel the despair. It isn't hard to see how that could lead to a small and loud minority making knee-jerk emotional decisions to go out and slice the heads off of some Americans. We caused that anger, we are paying for it. Karma.

As for the al Qaeda link to Iraq: they sure are there now aren't they? It's easy for the Bush Administration to point to Islamist extremists in Iraq now, a year later, and go "Look! Al Qaeda!!" Iraqis themselves agree that fundamentalists had no power under Saddam and that they knew to keep their heads low. We created a power vacuum by disbanding the army and destroying all of the ministries and now fundamentalists run the country. There are 400,000 angry, unemployed, armed Iraqi men of military age running around trying to feed their families. The reconstruction contracts are going to huge American companies, not unemployed Iraqis. It really isn't hard to see why there have been some beheadings of an American entrepeneur, an Apache helicopter technician, the sort of people who are directly responsible for taking Iraq's future and selling it to Halliburton.

Here's a nugget for you, from Baghdad Burning, from November 18, 2003:

"It's hard for adults without electricity, but it's a torment for the kids. They refuse to leave the little pool of light provided by the kerosene lamps. We watch them nervously as they flit from candlelight to lamplight, trying to avoid the dark as much as possible. I have flashes of the children knocking down a candle, hot, burning wax, flames… I asked the 7-year-old the other night if she was afraid of 'monsters' when she shied away from a dark room. She looked at me like I was crazy- monsters are for losers who don't need to fear war, abductions and explosions."

Riverbend's blog reads an awful lot like the Diary of Anne Frank. These people have no future because people like Saleen believe Bush when he tells us that he's pretty sure that Saddam used to talk to Osama on the telephone. Riverbend is a computer scientist like me who just graduated from college and got her first job. Now she has no career because the fundamentalist Islamists who we let take over her country don't think that women should have jobs. The reconstruction contracts aren't going to people like her, they are going to white guys like me who work for huge American (not French!) companies with connections to the Bush Administration. We told these people that we were doing them a favor and then we completely sold them out. I would be pretty pissed off too.

And Saleen, guess what? So would you!

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Guest trancepriest

If I was as xenophobic as Saleen... I would be unduly fearful of him killing me... cutting up my body in a bath tub... and then make spaghetti with meatballs as he looks at my body while eating his spaghetti... heck he may even be inclined to eat a part of my body with his spaghetti just to see how it tastes (I have a feeling he would chose my eyeballs). Cause of course from a xenophobic point of view.. all Italians are ghoulish, proned to violence, criminally inclined, would do anything to make social progress, commit murders and armed robberies at a whim.

Judging by his emotional irrationality I am somewhat fearful of this.

Fredo, Fredo, FREEEDO, FREEEDO!!! Hey Saleen, I was only joking no disrespect intended. I firmly believe that an Italian invented the first telephone... as well as contributed greatly to civilization... I mean especially if you disregard the fact that a charismatic... fashionable leader as Mussolini sided with the likes of Hitler, the gladiator death matches, the crucifictions, all the church mutilations, the legacy of the catholic church with

repression... with young boys and all the killings from organized crime, christ killing, etc. I'm sure Sicily is a nice place to visit. I Imagine all the murdered bodies from histories past covered up in that soil.

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Guest JMT

unless they proved the "large tube" was that guy's quiznos and not an RPG that could have taken out the whole chopper crew, i think ill hold my tears. they're the ones risking their lives, not you or I.

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unless they proved the "large tube" was that guy's quiznos and not an RPG that could have taken out the whole chopper crew, i think ill hold my tears. they're the ones risking their lives, not you or I.

i agree. i saw the video, and i would've wasted 'em too

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Guest JMT

Yeah, you're right about that. We're not looking good to the world.

No, I haven't seen that footage of the you Marine.

However, you know that they're all trained to be killers. Watching Full Metal Jacket (one of my favorite movies!) again the other night reinforced this idea.

Our soldiers are trained to be killing machines. On Pvt. Joker's helmet in the movie, it says "Born To Kill." That says it all.

So does this:

Drill Instructor: God has a hard-on for Marines. Because we kill everything we see.

Joker: How can you shoot women and children?

Gunner: Easy... you just don't lead 'em so much.

its a movie.

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Guest bingo_the_clown

what mess? karma??? earth to weird people the world is very simple. Right and wrong. our military isn't perfect nor will it ever be, but was sadamm killing 300k of his people and gassing them a error? was flying two planes into the trade center an error? was defending kuwait and sudi arabia in 91 an error? we didn't cause this, and BY THE FUCKING WAY TECH JUNKIE PUTIN SAID TODAY SADAM WAS PLANNING ON HITTING THE US AFTER 911, OPPS WAIT, YOU'LL SAY CNN AND PUTIN ARE LYING...

war is not perfect. We just don't kill the bad guys sometimes, but like a very good friend of mine said, "i rather have it done over there, and not here"...amen!

I love this guy. Nomatter how shitty my day goes, I can always count on reading a Saleen post and laughing my head off. Don't ever change, buddy - keep it real! ;D

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Guest bingo_the_clown

When other nations of non-caucasian origins... pursue efficiency in killing like we've done since the inception of this nation.. then their terrorist. The entire matter is that they don't want to be crude barbarians.. they want to be able to press a button and annihiliate an entire nation with the same efficiency... like we're capable of doing. They want to be just like us. Its our karma that we face this dilemma... we've wielded a nuclear sword with great might and honor. MAD... mutually assured destruction.. thats what our civilization amounts to.

Ack.

Our civilization amounts to nothing more than a cold-war-era slogan? Holy crap that's depressing. I mean, I grant you the fact that the US is a relatively young and unbelievably uncultured nation, and that there's a disturbing trend amongst its citizens with regards to the idea of 'total annihalation' not being synonymous with 'genocide', but there's *so* much that Americans are responsible for, good and bad. The war machine is only one part of the US persona, one that has been nurtured and fostered with great success, but only one piece of the puzzle.

It's not fair to judge a diverse, opinionated nation like this with such a clumsy stick (as deserving as they may seem at times.)

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Guest bingo_the_clown

Its quite interesting how Saleen can look at what Putin says versus the findings of our own 9/11 Commission Panel.

Pretty much everything that Saleen says can be qualified as "quite interesting"...

The News: "A Spanish guy robs a bank."

Saleen: "All spanish people are criminals and should be banned from Broward."

I represent that comment! ;D

... besides, you can't prove it was me... 8)

Obviously such a childish state of reasoning can't co-exist amongst mature intellectuals or even society as a whole. We only give you focus Saleen so we can help you increase your reasoning skills. Please try to follow a line of reasoning... if you can somehow reach the step of providing evidence then we would applaud your progress. Just look at his future response to this post for further evidence of his emotional irrationality.

Man, somebody has a bone to pick with Saleen! Whew! Nudges and jibes aside, there's no reason to get (overly) insulting, even if you feel contrary to another's opinion. Demeaning and belittling behaviour just seems a little unnecessary, even though you present your points well and with evidence. Just a thought.

Humour's a great defense for the feeble minded... indeed it is! Why are so many Italians named Tony? Because in the old country, their mothers wanted to make sure they got to the new world and wrote To NY on their foreheads... ;D

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Guest endymion

unless they proved the "large tube" was that guy's quiznos and not an RPG that could have taken out the whole chopper crew, i think ill hold my tears. they're the ones risking their lives, not you or I.

But see the thing is that killing a wounded soldier is a violation of the Geneva Convention.

By saying "yeah, screw the law, I would have killed them too", you're reinforcing the belief that the rest of the world holds that Americans don't care any more about being in the right. We are not the force of law, the righteous cops for the planet, we're just the imperial forces with the big guns. That means that we have no reason to expect any opponent in any future conflict to treat our people humanely. Ten years from now those could be Americans in the sights of a helicopter gunner, what decisions do you want that gunner to make at that point?

Days or weeks from now we're probably going to see another captive American on video tape, and we're going to wonder if they will treat him humanely. They won't. We are ensuring that.

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Guest bcnjunkie

Yeah, you're right about that. We're not looking good to the world.

No, I haven't seen that footage of the you Marine.

However, you know that they're all trained to be killers. Watching Full Metal Jacket (one of my favorite movies!) again the other night reinforced this idea.

Our soldiers are trained to be killing machines. On Pvt. Joker's helmet in the movie, it says "Born To Kill." That says it all.

So does this:

Drill Instructor: God has a hard-on for Marines. Because we kill everything we see.

Joker: How can you shoot women and children?

Gunner: Easy... you just don't lead 'em so much.

its a movie.

based on reality !

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Guest bcnjunkie

it didn't mirror reality ! but the base wasn't without premise, when Marines train, it's pretty brutal. My friends that became Marines never came back the same and they did confirm that movies like those, although exagerated, are not off base, in a kubrick sort of way ;D

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Guest bcnjunkie

doesn't the saying go "all's fair in love and war ?" the consequences of a war brutal, whether it be the beheading of a military agent or the killing of innocent farmers. What i boils down to is that we should have never been there in the first place. One life lost due to an unclear cause is one too many whether it be Irai or American.

It is funny how after 9-11 we had the sympathy of the world and so quickly our goverment made us look like an unstrustworthy, imperialistic, war-hungry society with complete disregard for anybody.

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Guest shannon_coolj.

Yeah, you're right about that. We're not looking good to the world.

No, I haven't seen that footage of the you Marine.

However, you know that they're all trained to be killers. Watching Full Metal Jacket (one of my favorite movies!) again the other night reinforced this idea.

Our soldiers are trained to be killing machines. On Pvt. Joker's helmet in the movie, it says "Born To Kill." That says it all.

So does this:

Drill Instructor: God has a hard-on for Marines. Because we kill everything we see.

Joker: How can you shoot women and children?

Gunner: Easy... you just don't lead 'em so much.

its a movie.

jmt, it was based on reality and i was using quotes from the movie that applied to what we were talking about ::)

also, what about the korean guy who is now being held hostage?

are we all going to say it's his "karma" if he was beheaded. even though all this guy did was work for a company (non-military, i believe) that supplied stuff to the u.s.?

i agree with bcn though...no matter why these people died, they shouldn't have.

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