Return of the Draft Returned...

[bornslippy22]

Are you referring to the 31st Infanty in the Korean war. Alot tof myths exist about a disgraced American military unit that lost its colors. If you're referring ot the 31st.. they held their position for 4 days in terrible weather and fought until they were all perished. If they lost their colors in that circumstance... well then thats warrior honor.

i believe it was the 31st infantry (if my memory serves me correct)...and they did not all perish, but did lose their colors...in fact another military unit had to come up to help them out...and if u REALLY wanna talk about "terrible weather", lets talk about the 101st in Bastogne...they held their positions and kept the Germans at bay as well...

[Guest trancepriest]

i believe it was the 31st infantry (if my memory serves me correct)...and they did not all perish, but did lose their colors...in fact another military unit had to come up to help them out...and if u REALLY wanna talk about "terrible weather", lets talk about the 101st in Bastogne...they held their positions and kept the Germans at bay as well...

You must be talking about the Army... check out this site which gives a detail history of the battle of Chosin Reservoir: http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/31RCT.htm

Excerpt:

All the equipment and vehicles of two Infantry Battalions, the 57th Field Artillery Battalion and D Battery 15th AAA AW Battalion were lost in the fighting east of Chosin between November 27 and December 2, 1950. Not a single vehicle, artillery piece, mortar or machine gun of these units was saved. This debacle is in grim contrast to the withdrawal of the gallant Marine Regiments who successfully fought, and broke through, the same enemy, under the same conditions, bringing out most of their equipment and dead, and nearly all their wounded.

The reasons for this disaster, given the obvious heroism of many individual officers and men of 31RCT, are still debated but must call into question the preparation of 31RCT by X Corps command, training methods of Army Infantry in general, and command leadership of the US Army. Specifically, as compared to the USMC.

1stMarDiv C.O. General O.P. Smith and his battle-hardened Regimental Commanders had deliberately slowed their advance into the Taebecks in spite of demands for haste from X Corps commander Army General Almond. In their view, any advance must always be based on adequate preparation and support. This procedure subsequently allowed 1stMarDiv to coordinate its infantry, artillery, armor and air units during the fight-out, even preparing a crude air-field at Hagaru-ri for logistical support. Among other activities, this airfield enabled evacuation of over 4,000 wounded and frost-bitten Marines and Soldiers during Dec 2-5. This included more than 1500 7th Division troops, with all 31RCT survivors unfit for duty. Without the stubborn professional approach of the experienced Marine command staff and its veteran leadership at all fighting levels, the tragedy east of Chosin would have been a much more general disaster too terrible to contemplate.

As one veteran said, "Thank God for the Marines."

The 31st is an Army unit:

http://www.31stinfantry.org/index.html

I don't know of any Marine units that lost their colors in any war. I also don't know of any Army units either... the 31st (Army) lost alot of people and were denied the Presidential Unit Citation by a Marine General.

This is what the chinese had to say about the Army:

But at the time, as the Chinese appraised us after their initial probing assault:

"The U.S.Army relies for its main power in combat on the shock effect of coordinated armor and artillery ... and their air-to-ground attack capability is exceptional. But their infantry is weak. Their men are afraid to die, and haven't courage to either press home a bold attack or defend to the death. They depend on their planes, tanks and artillery. At the same time, they are afraid of our firepower. They will cringe when, in an advance, they hear firing ... Their habit is to be active during the daylight hours. They are very weak in attacking or approaching an enemy at night ... They are afraid when their rear is cut off. When transportation comes to a standstill, their infantry loses the will to fight."

The Army behaved very badly in the initial battles of Korea... they often retreated without fighting. Marines units faced the same opposition and pulled through.

Another excerpt:

This seems to have been an accurate assessment of most of our Army, at that time and place. But it led to China making the terrible error of allowing the sweet scent of easy victory in the northwest to send her armies crashing over South Korea's legitimate borders, toward an apparently easy total victory.

But ... Americans who were properly trained and conditioned for combat were a different problem altogether. The fighting withdrawal of our 1st Marine Division from Chosin should have given the CCF much more to think about than it apparently did, in understanding the limitations of pitting massed troops against vastly superior fire-power, when that power was exercised by competent fighting men. Eighth Army's recovery and eventual crushing counter-attack back across the 38th might have been inferred from 1st Mar Div's actions because ... our Marines were superb.

----------------------------

Task Force Faith (Army Unit) was disintegrated in the Chosin battle. Still to this day... its an embarassment to the Armies performance in Korea vs. the Marines.

This unit was finally given the Presidential Unit Citation in 1999. Even though their conduct was a dishonor to the nation.

[Guest jona7]

I wonder what Slammin Shaun has to say about this...

[Guest JMT]

he will probably say its bullshit, just like the earlier bullshit draft "rumors".

[Guest trancepriest]

he will probably say its bullshit, just like the earlier bullshit draft "rumors".

You have such a fine... refined eloquence. Simple...masquerading on common... but beautiful in its lack of adornment.

[Guest pod]

The Army has largely been a "generic" fighting force throughout the history of the nation. That is why they have a lot of ways to be elite. 101st, 82nd, Rangers, Special Forces, etc...a lot of opportunities to excel at soldiering. That being said, the Marines from the get-go are an elite fighting force...they maybe lack the equipment of the regular army, but they have the training to go head to head with anyone, regardless of their armament situation. Sadly enough, the Army seemingly is cannon fodder, whereas the more 'valuable' recruits go into the service of the Marines, Navy, or Air Force. During draft periods, most draftees were tossed into an infantry unit for the slaughter. Sad really, as the Army has a proud tradition of soldiering and service to the nation, and yet the government regards them as little more than targets. If you're smart, you're piloting drones or an F-22, "dumb" means you learn the M16, and how to shoot someone.

[Guest JMT]

he will probably say its bullshit, just like the earlier bullshit draft "rumors".

You have such a fine... refined eloquence. Simple...masquerading on common... but beautiful in its lack of adornment.

we all have access to online dictionaries there Susan Sontag.

well hows this? kiss my cornhole.

i prefer to use my infinitely valuable time in ways more beneficial to me.

[bornslippy22]

The Army has largely been a "generic" fighting force throughout the history of the nation. That is why they have a lot of ways to be elite. 101st, 82nd, Rangers, Special Forces, etc...a lot of opportunities to excel at soldiering. That being said, the Marines from the get-go are an elite fighting force...they maybe lack the equipment of the regular army, but they have the training to go head to head with anyone, regardless of their armament situation. Sadly enough, the Army seemingly is cannon fodder, whereas the more 'valuable' recruits go into the service of the Marines, Navy, or Air Force. During draft periods, most draftees were tossed into an infantry unit for the slaughter. Sad really, as the Army has a proud tradition of soldiering and service to the nation, and yet the government regards them as little more than targets. If you're smart, you're piloting drones or an F-22, "dumb" means you learn the M16, and how to shoot someone.

my friend the Marines are the mindless targets...they are only good for making the enemy waste bullets on them...and dont give me "The Marines always go in first"...the Army is usually in there first...Rangers, Army advisors, etc....

to trancepriest:

i USUALLY dont google my responses, but speak from subjects i have either studied or read...if u like, i can contact my teacher at FIU to give u a lenghty discourse about what happened...or if u like...i can call in my father who can also tell a nice little story of the Marines being bailed out in Cason (sp?) and WHO bailed out those Marines? the Army...as a footnote, my teacher who was doing the lecture, was a an ex US Marine....

[Guest MELI2444]

I think you guys had wayyyyyyy too much coffee this morning.

[Guest saintjohn]

I think you guys had wayyyyyyy too much coffee this morning.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

[bornslippy22]

You say that like it's a bad thing.

werd....

[Guest MELI2444]

Let me go get another cafe con leche and maybe I can get into this one.

[Guest saintjohn]

How about a cafe mocha?

[Guest trancepriest]

we all have access to online dictionaries there Susan Sontag.

well hows this? kiss my cornhole.

i prefer to use my infinitely valuable time in ways more beneficial to me.

Here I am trying to give your minimalist mind a compliment and your so ungracious.

[Guest trancepriest]

i USUALLY dont google my responses, but speak from subjects i have either studied or read...if u like, i can contact my teacher at FIU to give u a lenghty discourse about what happened...or if u like...i can call in my father who can also tell a nice little story of the Marines being bailed out in Cason (sp?) and WHO bailed out those Marines? the Army...as a footnote, my teacher who was doing the lecture, was a an ex US Marine....

All I would like are some simple facts... not your word of mouth or your acquaintances. Specifically what unit are you referring to? On another note... Marines undergo extensive combat training. This is clearly evident in a longer boot camp (3 Months) and another extended Marine Combat Training period right after boot camp for males (one month) females get one week extra in bootcamp handling heavy weapons. So at least a minimum of 4 months combat training for all male Marines. This then is later supplemented by extended field training for all Marines when their attached to their units. This is unlike the Army which has co-ed bootcamps. We run longer, shoot further, patrol longer, have more esprit de corps and have a history of fighting the nations toughest opponents.

These are the facts. Even though the entire body of the Marines is considered an elite fighting force. We also have our own special untis which consist of Marine Corps Recon and Marine Corps Snipers. Our sniping schools are the best in the world and the other branches come to us for training. All Marines including females shoot at a range of at least 500 meters this is in contrast to the Army which shoots at 300 meters. Our Marine Expeditionary Units (Special Operations Capable) are also combat prepped and forward deployed in peace time. Because of this maritime expeditionary nature we're usually called on first to fight or to rescue.

Its interesting to note that in the Marines we train as we fight... male grunts. The general Army does not train as they fight. Straight out of basic traning a female Marine platoon could destroy an all male or mixed sex army platoon. I'm comparing Marine Corps basic training vs. Army Basic Training.

Read this report on the Armies... co-ed ineffective training:

http://www.sftt.org/dwa/2003/2/5/7.html

Also this writers observance is also interesting:

http://www.strategypage.com/messageboards/messages/12-2665.asp

[bornslippy22]

trancepriest...no one is arguing that that Marines dont have better training...but to dismiss a FACT that most Marines acknowledge about losing ur regimental colors and calling it a "myth" is just funny to me...the Army has its tons of failures, just like the Marines...but i dont remember anyone from the Army deny or calling Custer's raid a "myth", etc...and as far as exactly WHICH division was that lost the colors, u have to give me time to tell u exactly who it was...i grad. in 2001 from FIU and all my lecture notes and books are long gone...and dont give me the "we fight the best opponents" crap, b/c the Army doesnt fight 2nd stringers either....and as far as special forces the Army has many of them...Ranger? Green Berets?....if u want "the facts" that for u is exactly which Marine division lost the colors, give me till tomorrow...its hard enough to post from my job, searching webpages for ur answer is even tougher...but lemme guess? a Marine could do it?

[Guest MELI2444]

How about a cafe mocha?

From Starbucks........