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highbpm

How much Ecstasy is too much Ecstasy?

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This is purely for my interest as was prompted by a previous post about first-time Ecstasy use.

How much is too much and how much is keeping it within the realms of moderation? I have read posts about peoples bodies slowing down, memory loss and E-addiction etc. but I would be interested in people's subjective opinion. How many pills of how much time is overdoing it?

I'd be interested in the general concensus and then to contrast the U.S. opinion with what I know about the U.K. opinion.

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i don't know about the long term consequences of dropping regularly, but i will tell you this about any give instance of dropping e. after a certain amount of mdma, you're not getting any higher. once your seratonin is depleted, all you're doing by eating more pills is fucking up your head. so for all those fiends who go and drop 8 pills, you're not only wasting your money but also your brain. i think for someone between 100-200 lbs, the cutoff point is prolly around 200mg of mdma.

and as far as pills with mda or mdea, taking even 1 is crazy, but if you drop a few of those you're really fuckin yourself up.

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Too much E is doing it more than once every 2 mos or so. You can't get addicted to E, since it does not directly affect you physically (but it does inadvertantly). In my opinion, people do a lot of E to substitute for a lack of love (loneliness). At least that is why I abused e in the past, and other people that I know as well. It can be fun, or used to be fun), but it ends up turning habitual, BUT NOT ADDICTING. People become different while under the influence. They may have liked the person that they once became (i.e. more outgoing, friendly, etc., etc.), but now are trying to get back the old E days (yes we all remember them), so they keep taking it. Then it takes more and more to get you back there, and in the process makes you a tired and weary clubber. E is cool once in and a while, but gets to be really boring, just like all drugs and scenes do. Oh well. Wish I never abused it, but never regret taking it. There is a time and a place for everything. Just my 2 cents smile.gif See you guys.

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That's a question that you decide individually. For me . . . more than 1 1/2 at once is too much. Pershoot did make a good point though. After so much, you're really not making yourself roll any harder . . . that much is true for myself. That's why more than 1 1/2 is just a waste for me.

BlueAngel

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Music is the language of souls . . .

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Alright, 2 more cents, just what I've read/researched. IF you're talking about in one night, it's true that after seratonin is depleted, taking more won't do shit. However, most pills out there are not pure MDMA. And a lot of the time the other shit in there is speed, in some form or another, in which case takin another will keep you jumpin about like a banshee. The thing is though, that sometimes if the pills aren't that potent, all your seratonin won't be gone so taking another will make you roll harder/longer.

OK, and if you're talking about long-term affects, everything I"ve read says that it takes 1-2 weeks to build your seratonin levels back up to normal. But if you take it every two weeks, they actually don't build up to the same level they once were before you started poppin pills on a regular basis. Also, university research in the last six months have found that too much E too often actually changes your axons (right word?, no biology knowledge) which make the seratonin, although they have no idea if that's bad or not. Also they just found that it depletes your short term memory, esp in stressful situations and of course, esp in addition to smoking cannabis on a regular baiss. All this was found with people who take X on a fairly regular weekly basis.

And as far as everyone saying it's addictive mentally or habitually, I couldn't possibly disagree more. With me anyways, I've done more E over the last 6 months or so, than I ever have and I'm pretty close to givin it up. I get as much out of a sober night as I do E'd up (more or less), besides then I don't worry about whether I'm rolling yet/hard/still, which always kills it for me.

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The recent studies have a big scientific flaw, they are not scientific. They have two groups, conrol and crackheads. The crackhead group isn't necessarily just doing mdma but is most likely to be abusing other substances (not even necessarily illicit substances either). Also, many of those studies only want crackhead subjects that have rolled over 200 times. 200 separate nights of e! You'd have to do it every weekend for 4 years to do that! So, they are not finding results from moderate users.

go science!

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Thanks everyone for some very interesting posts. I really hope that a lot more come along.

Wow, so much to talk about. I better try and give my 2 pence (I am from England after all) about each comment at a time.

Firstly, Pooh was first to bring up the phenomenon that is 'tolerance'. In one respect I think that that's an inherent quality of E - if that factor wasn't there we'd probably all be brown bread by now as it's so fucking good. So yes, you have a limited amount of seratonin and dropping a pill at the weekend has been likened to using a whole week's worth of happiness all at once. So, double-, triple-, and even quadruple-dropping at one time just isn't going to do it. Pooh said some good things. Oh, one thing - the comment about MDE and MDEA - sure they're not as desireable as MDMA but they're both precursors to the real stuff. I take your point that they are deemed to be a little more risky though.

Pershoot's right about E not being physically addictive as it's effects are (at least directly) psychological as opposed to physiological. I think we all know that the after-effects of pills truly are physiological though. I'd disagree with the statement that only lonely people take E. Perhaps I'm reading this wrong but I have never really classed myself as a lonely person - I did it for the enlightenment and because, well.. it made me feel damn good - plain and simple.

Randy - a bowl of round fellas and a splash of GHB - wow. When's your next party mate? ;o)

Freedomtat is on the ball as usual. Definitely clued-up given the comments and some accurate science (Randy take note). When I was at home I used to club with people who would chew 8/10 a night, every Saturday night (more or less) for years. Yep, years. Say that they go clubbing just 30 weekends out of 52 and they drop 10 a weekend (for calculations sake - I have known it to be twice this amount plus other fun stuff). Three hundred pills. Started clubbing with them when we were 17 and left them to come over here when I was 21. Four years. 1200 pills. Sure they are certainly not the at the pinnacle of health but they're not in an institution or on death's door. They lead normal (relatively) balanced lives and have good jobs (hence being able to afford such a vast intake.)

Randy again - the science is not flawed in my opinion. There are always going to be claims that are biased one way or the other but I think that the research is largely objective. You really should check out www.ecstasy.org and read 'E is for Ecstasy'. Great book.

PFloyd40 - I'm sorry mate but your comment flew right over my head - perhaps I'm dumb or something. Let me know why you think even one is too much - I'd be interested.

Personally (shit, I meant to keep this post short), I have taken a great deal of positive experience away from using Ecstasy. I've used it a reasonable amount over the course of the past 7 years and, as I believe Pershoot was saying, you have to pick your moment and keep it in moderation! I certaily don't think that the last pill that I took will be my last.

I look forward to more input as for some reason I am really really interested in the American perspective on this - it's great.

Thanks all.

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Oasis, thank you for answering, it really inspired me to do something.

ANyhow, a number of the studies in teh states actually refuse moderate users, as I have known people that wanted to see how they were conducted and tried giving some high number which was actually not enough to participate. Specific number of pills is meaningless as each brand will have its own dosage. It wasn't teh number of pills they were looking for but rather the number of instances the dru was consumed. Rolling every weekend can't be that healthy. Rolling every weekend for years can't be that healthy. Occassionaly popping a pill? That is something that will be under debate for a long time. Ingesting massive amounts of anything o na regualr basis is not good for you.

ANyhow, the number of times somebofy rolls or how many they tke is still irrelevent whe nit comes to contaminants. Are the pills the test subjects' history pure mdma? Have they done any otehr drugs during that time? Those variables alone are enough to makew hte test results completely worthless, especially if they are dealing with people that already abuse one drug. How many drug users only use one drug?

E is defintely not that good for you, but why should the gov't keep you from doing it? SMoking and drinking are perfectly legal. They probably shouldn't be, but they have enough lobbyists to keep them going. Running into brick walls isn't too healthy, but its legal.

oh well, so much for logic

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Randy,

Yeah, I see your point now. I appreciate that the tests are purely basedon hypotheses and not really relevant to the 'real world' because, as you point out, I'm sure that these tests are performed in controlled environments and they don't wander up to some guy in a club and score a few pills to conduct their test with.

You also echo what I have been saying all along - everything in moderation!! If you smoke to much you're going to have problems, similarly if you eat too much chocolate cake. Shit, if you drink too much water you'll die!

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OASIS -

Mate - if you really don't have anything positive to contribute then don't even bother reading the posts.

Not much gets me annoyed but please, if you don't like the topics then maybe you can start some threads that you feel ARE worth discussing instead of mouthing-off at those you don't like.

So, as I said, if this level of conversation is beyond your reach then go and contribute (positively!!) to something you can comprehend.

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Great comment HIGHBPM

You gave me a good laugh with that one.

He's right oasis whats the deal with the negativity. I don't understand that you take the time to straight out complain on an intellectual topic that some people are interested about. Sometimes you must think before you mouth off. This site is not just here for you its here for everyone. I don't mind you expressing your thoughts at all, but if its negativity you must bring then why bother posting to this topic. keep posting my friend, but lets come from a different angle. No hard feelings, lets keep the vibe!

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This is defintley one of the most quality boards i've seen in a while! Why complain about it? contribute your opinion but its not fair to coomplain.

This board is informative & fair, Though I can assure you no one wants to hear my opinions of E or and drugs but, again thanks for the intellectual and informative board.

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I'm with Randy ... (I'm agreeing with a lot he has to say these days) there is no real scientific study because we don't know what the "test' group is really taking - it's all street stuff.

Since the gov't threw e into schedule I of controlled substances, it can't even be used for tests!!!!! Psychotherapists who ed to use it for patients can't even use it ... it's really stupid!

by classifying it under schedule I - noone can even examine it's affects ... unreal!

So we will never really know the affects until there is a regulated test with regulated long-term users who are monitored by scientists ... which will never happen.

Rally

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Great comment John,

I agree with you insofar as the government has a tendency to blow things completely out of proportion. I think that the blame is also partly attributable to the tabloid media. The government is elected by the people for the people right? This being, you have to represent the opinions of the people and, to over simplify the issue, keep them happy because the government wants their votes.

Now, regrettably the tabloid media and gutter press have spread so much crap about Ecstasy and it's effects (e.g. "Killer Dance Drug" "Ravers boiling in their own blood" "Orgy Pill" etc. etc. ad nauseum). The media has a lot of power as uninformed (not ignorant) people are susceptible to BELIEVE what they read. Given that, if the government were to re-classify E to a lesser substance grade, the mid-west farmer's family in Indiana would be up in arms that they would reduce the restrictions on such a "satanic poison". Therefore, they are obligated to keep it in the Class A list.

Unfortunately people the scene has been set. E has been 'labelled' and without a considerable amount of time and some objective research, it's true colours will not be revealed. However, there is a glimmer of hope. Switzerland recently re-classified E as a soft drug I think - for what it's worth.

Long-term effects are still in debate. I'd suggest subscribing to the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies (MAPS) forum. The forum contributors are largely doctors and research scientists involved (sometimes covertly) in the study of MDMA and other psychedelic and psychoactive substances. There's a lot of stuff that flies over my head but it's interesting.

I have read some information about the long-term depletion of serotonin through repetitive Ecstasy use also. From what I have read, the authors seemed to suggest that it was not necessarily that the amount of seratonin produced decreases, but the axons in the brain which act as transmitters between synaptic receptors degrade and cannot carry the 'signal' across as well, therefore, leading to depression.

It's interesting to hear everyone's 'take' on the subject though as opinions and knowledge about E seem to be varied.

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I agree with you guys! I read that book by Richard Cohen - Marching to the beat of Ecstacy ... and other books on the subject ...

The government has completely overreacted to ecstacy ... like I said Psychotherapists were using it very successfully to treat patients who had different issues. The drug was allowing them to vien their inner selves and deal with these problems they had ... and it was working in most cases.

Of course, the drug then spread to the street and was being used and actually sold in bars ... then the gov't stepped in and killed it!

By classifying it as a Schedule I substance - the highest classification - noone can do any research legally!!!! How ridiculous is that ... a scientist has to jump through 20 hoops just to be given permission to test or study the drug ... i think it's a terrible thing.

This drug has very real therapeutic value and it can't even be used! It really angers me sometimes ... anyway - PEACE peeps! smile.gif

Rally biggrin.gif

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Rally,

You've hit upon one of the biggest problems with the war on drugs. Which is that the government puts out so much complete bulls*it info about drugs and doesn't really know the truth. The problem surfaces when you see so many people using drugs that probably wouldn't be too harmful by themselves, but doing it in an extemely dangerous way or doing very dangerous substances which are not what they think they are. For example, most GHB overdoses come from people who know nothing about it and have already done other stuff (esp alcohol) during the course of the night, and then decide to try GHB. If their was a credible authority out there the message could easily be spread that GHB+alcohol=big problems. But they put out so much hyperbole and propoganda that no one listens to them anyway. And E? As was said already, no one has done a real study to determine its effects. However, any quack with an untested theory can be quoted in any "serious" magazine as an authority on the subject. The truth is no one knows how harmful E is, and they never will if the drug laws aren't loosened up a little. But what is clear is that the impurities in your pills are very harmful, and as long as it is illegal, you take that risk every time you drop.

The "best" theory on E, and the one that gets a lot of press, is that your seratonin levels will drop off substantially when you get older. But if they come back to normal after a few weeks, which mine always do if I lay off for a while, at least I get out of the "blues," then why is it logical to think that in 20 years they will suddenly drop off again?

JohnB

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Well....

Ok I am still not anti-drug but I think I should add a few objective points to this discussion;-)

Yeah it's not going to kill most people who take it, yes it's Very nice, yes we all have stories of people who have been taking for a long time and yes the press have gone too far.

But we all have horror stories, we have all seen people being carried out of clubs. Some people will have problems (as although it is not physically addictive it is psychologically addictive). I think pro arguments like this are as dangerous as the anti arguments.

Before I came out to the US, we were out on a holiday weekend mashup. We met up with many groups of people but it was a girls birthday one day so we hooked up with there group and spent a few hours together. Anyway after the weekend was over we all tried to get intouch with her. 6 weeks later she turns up. She had gone out 4 night on the trot and then to Sundaysential the next day she had lost it and when driving past a doctors surgery had run in and collapsed. The doctor booked her into a mental health clinic for 6 weeks. They found massive muscle damage caused by the body being hot and dancing way past her bodies limits. She had taken 10 pills over the course of 4 days.

It took her 8 weeks to recover.... and 1 week to get back on the pills.

I have a hundred stories like this.

On a research note, the latest tests that have been done on a quality known basis, shows that there is defiantly an effect on "Working memory" not short term memory loss.

To say were the pills taken pure MDMA is a little irrelevant, I am sure nobody on this board tests every pill they ever buy. So are the pills you are taken pure MDMA? The tests that are being done in the UK are done in real life situations they have taken people who have only ever taken pills (what is in them is irrelevant) and people who have taken pills & speed, pills & speed & weed etc.

It's also got to do with the strength of the pill. About 5 years ago the pills in the UK dropped in price and strength. Nobody knows exactly why. When E fist hit the UK the pills were coming in at 220mg each and 15-20 pounds. Now the average pill is 60mg-140mg (if you are luck). MDMA,MDE,MDEA's toxicity increases as the dose increases so the more in your system at one time the more potential damage you are doing. Bearing in mind 98% of the MDMA content is ejected from your system within 2 hours (but it take the remaining 2% 2 days to leave) the worst thing you can do is double drop.

Anyway, i just had to put that in because i wouldn't like to see the same prevalence here that there is in the UK. The other dangerous thing about the problem over here is that English kids can get drunk at 16, over here the under 21's are all looking for someway to have fun. Because there is no option for the "rave kids" over here i can see a potentialy bigger problem. The US government have confiscated more E's comming in from Europe in the first 6 months of this year than the last two years combined and i am sure this is not due to the DEA doing there job better.

highBMP,

where do you go out in Oxford?

------------------

I want to go out blazing not fade away.

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