Guest endymion Posted November 9 Report Share Posted November 9 Shaun, by digging up the thread about the rich ruling class, you've illustrated my point about the term "conservative" having absolutely no meaning behind it. Apparently you mean something entirely differently than I do when the term "fiscal conservative" comes out of your mouth.So I'm curious, what does the term mean to you? To you, a fiscal conservative is a person who supports tax cuts?See, to me a "fiscal conservative" is simply a person who avoids spending money that he doesn't have. To me, the idea of cutting taxes and simultaneously spending more is a "fiscally liberal" idea. Perhaps even "fiscally irresponsible".The term "conservative" has been warped through doublespeak lately to the point where it doesn't mean much beyond "he who tows the party line". I'm curious what it means to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest slamminshaun Posted November 9 Report Share Posted November 9 See, I don't define it that way at all. If anyone is interested, read some of Tech's posts in my "Who pays taxes..." thread. Some of them are so far out there, you'll have a hard time figuring out how he would propose you get ahead in life. He's basically saying that all debt is bad, whether it be a car loan or even a mortgage. Yes, that's right. If you can't pay cash for that condo or house, you have no business buying it. How many of us have $400,000 in the bank? That's not fiscal conservatism. That's elitism. Not all of us will be fortunate enough to cash in on a business and retire. Conservatism to me is less government. Period. That is the broad view. It breaks down into less taxes, states rights, etc. Do I believe Dubya has acted fiscally conservative? Nope. It's one of the issues I have a beef with him over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest endymion Posted November 9 Report Share Posted November 9 Conservatism to me is less government.So if "liberalism" is defined solely as the polar opposite of "conservativism", then to you the term "liberal" means somebody who supports big government? It's just that I have trouble even participating in a conversation when none of the terms that anybody is using mean anything specific.As to the bits about debt, you just said that you're fiscally conservative and that you want less spending and less taxing. So bringing up a thread where you're in support of more debt is confusing. A conservative is against increasing the budget unless revenues increase. Either way though, that thread was about personal debt and the corporations who own it, not government budgets.I oppose taking on more debt for my own personal finances because I manage my own finances extremely conservatively. I also oppose my government taking on more debt because I want to see fiscal responsibility in government. I'm also extremely opposed to simultaneously increasing spending while cutting tax revenues because again I'm fiscally conservative. Everything I'm saying is consistent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest slamminshaun Posted November 9 Report Share Posted November 9 Conservatism to me is less government.then to you the term "liberal" means somebody who supports big government? Exactly. And I will say this, Bush has been very liberal in his bloating of our government. I don't support it, nor is it why I voted for him. I don't support his pandering to the Hispanics by being a wimp on border control. I am pro-choice. And I don't support intelligent design being taught in schools. I guess I'm not your average conservative, huh? All else being equal, line the two guys up side by side in 2000 and 2004 and there was still more I agreed with him on, thus, why I voted for him in the first place. I'm just as consistent as you are in my views. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest endymion Posted November 9 Report Share Posted November 9 I guess I'm not your average conservative' date=' huh? [/quote']There is no such thing as an "average conservative" or "average liberal" because neither term means anything specific.So now we have a clear picture of what you mean when you talk about "liberals". To you (specifically) a "conservative" favors smaller government, and a "liberal" is the opposite of that and therefore favors bigger government.This explains a LOT. If I replace the word "liberal" with "person who favors big government" in your posts then they make a lot more sense to me.Problem is, every O'Reilly-regurgitating Bush fan who uses the word "liberal" once per paragraph means something different when they say it, so if everybody is going to keep using that word then I have to constantly work to figure out what each of you mean. When you say "liberal" you mean "big-government lover". When O'Reilly says "liberal" he means "pussy". When Bush says "conservative" he means "bleed the reserves until they're dry". It's all subjective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest slamminshaun Posted November 9 Report Share Posted November 9 Oh, you want me to really dive in and tell you what a liberal means to me? Damn dude, I didn't know I had to write an essay tonight....there's more to it then supporting an intrusive, centralized, big government. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/liberalism/ Maybe that'll help....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiberalismOr that....I guess when I speak of "liberalism", I really mean "American liberalism" as its defined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest endymion Posted November 9 Report Share Posted November 9 The references that you provide do not support defining "liberalism" as either "the opposite of conservativism" or "in favor of big government".From Wikipedia:Liberalism is an ideology, or current of political thought, which strives to maximize individual liberty through rights under law. Liberalism seeks a society characterized by free action within a defined framework.It doesn't say "pussy" and it doesn't say "tax and spend". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest slamminshaun Posted November 9 Report Share Posted November 9 Also from Wikipedia: The following views are associated with American liberalism, though many people who consider themselves liberal would accept some of these views and reject others: * Support for government social programs such as welfare, medical care, unemployment benefits, and retirement programs. * Support for increased funding for public education. * Support for trade unions, teachers' unions, and government protections for organized labor. * Regulation of business - OSHA, against child labor, monopolistic practices, etc. * Support for civil rights: o Support laws against discrimination based on gender, race, age, religion, sexual orientation, or disability. o Support laws guaranteeing rights of women and minorities, particularly racial and religious minorities, the disabled, and gays. o Support for such programs as affirmative action and transitional multi-lingual educational programs for children whose first language is not English. o Support broad voting rights. * Support for reproductive rights * Support for strong environmental regulations. * Support for public transportation. * Support for minimum wage requirements. * Support for government funding to alternative energy research. * Opposition to the death penalty. * Support for animal rights – as an issue of ethical human behavior. * Support for gun control. * Support for a progressive tax system.I have some liberal tendencies, but I would say a liberal is one who tends to agree with most of what's up there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest slamminshaun Posted November 9 Report Share Posted November 9 If you're not sure how big the government is, check this out...its eye-opening.http://www.centerforsmallgovernment.com/list-fed.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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