5 more soldiers charged in Iraq rape-murder case

[Guest JMT]

LOL... I'm sure the 101st airborne bears no responsibility for 5 of its troops gang raping and murdering Iraqi's and another Non Commissioned Officer covering it up. No fault in leadership there. Rape and murder are quite tolerant incidents.

since when does intolerance stop anything?

[Guest trancepriest]

since when does intolerance stop anything?

All we have to do is make Iraqi law the governing authority. Rape and murder Iraqis.. then get handed over to the Iraqi justice system. If Iraq is a sovereign nation then shouldn't this be the correct course of action?

[Guest coach]

i think i stopped having my hand-held while crossing the street in kindergarten. i guess coaches should still be doing it at the collegiate level.

That's irrelevant.

huh?

the only way a coach can possible control what the athletes (who are adults) do every waking minute of each day would be to literally attach themselves at the hip.

So a leader has absolutely no control over his followers whatsoever? What's the point of being a leader, then? What's the point of having a command and control structure, then?

[Guest slamminshaun]

i think i stopped having my hand-held while crossing the street in kindergarten. i guess coaches should still be doing it at the collegiate level.

That's irrelevant.

huh?

the only way a coach can possible control what the athletes (who are adults) do every waking minute of each day would be to literally attach themselves at the hip.

So a leader has absolutely no control over his followers whatsoever? What's the point of being a leader, then? What's the point of having a command and control structure, then?

Under that theory, every crime committed in this country is the president's fault.

[Guest trancepriest]

Under that theory' date=' every crime committed in this country is the president's fault.

[/quote']

In a way it is. It's the governments responsibility to provide security for its people.... a government that cannot do that is a failed state. An isolated crime may not be faulted to the leader but over time not adapting corrective actions in preventing such crimes is a sign of weak leadership. Five soldiers in an elite Army unit raping an Iraqi 14 year old and then killing her family is an extreme breakdown of discipline . If it was 1 or 2 soldiers it would be a different matter. It is the Presidents duty as commander in chief to ensure morale and discipline in fighting troops is at an high order. The president should be making enquiries into the morale of the fighting troops in the 101st airborne and marines. This he can do by issuing orders and investigations down the chain of command. What is the Presidents view on all these rapes and murders? How is the situation in Iraq affecting female GIs? Are we winning the fight for hearts and minds?

[Guest slamminshaun]

Under that theory, every crime committed in this country is the president's fault.

In a way it is. It's the governments responsibility to provide security for its people.... a government that cannot do that is a failed state.

And a gov't that does it perfectly is a police state....choose one.

[Guest trancepriest]

Under that theory' date=' every crime committed in this country is the president's fault.

[/quote']

In a way it is. It's the governments responsibility to provide security for its people.... a government that cannot do that is a failed state.

And a gov't that does it perfectly is a police state....choose one.

The military is a police state.

[Guest JMT]

So a leader has absolutely no control over his followers whatsoever? What's the point of being a leader, then? What's the point of having a command and control structure, then?

when all is said and done, individuals are responsible for their OWN actions. all the leadership in the world can't stop some sick asshole from committing a crime like this. should it be a coach or officer's duty to instill common human decency into people too?

my parents did everything within her power to raise me in a certain way. through the years i did things that would probably break my mother's heart if she knew about them. is that her fault? no fucking way it is.

[Guest trancepriest]

So a leader has absolutely no control over his followers whatsoever? What's the point of being a leader, then? What's the point of having a command and control structure, then?

when all is said and done, individuals are responsible for their OWN actions. all the leadership in the world can't stop some sick asshole from committing a crime like this. should it be a coach or officer's duty to instill common human decency into people too?

my parents did everything within her power to raise me in a certain way. through the years i did things that would probably break my mother's heart if she knew about them. is that her fault? no fucking way it is.

Dude this is not kindergarten we're talking about. A sick fuck... signifies one person... what we have here is lots of sick fucks torturing, raping and murdering people. This is about unit morale and that is leadership. If all these actions were from one person then you could say its just a lone sick fuck.

[Guest JMT]

since when does intolerance stop anything?

All we have to do is make Iraqi law the governing authority. Rape and murder Iraqis.. then get handed over to the Iraqi justice system. If Iraq is a sovereign nation then shouldn't this be the correct course of action?

thats a good idea, as long as they get a fair trial.

[Guest JMT]

Dude this is not kindergarten we're talking about.

which is all the more reason why an adult, or adults, are responsible for THEIR OWN actions.

[Guest coach]

So a leader has absolutely no control over his followers whatsoever? What's the point of being a leader, then? What's the point of having a command and control structure, then?

when all is said and done, individuals are responsible for their OWN actions. all the leadership in the world can't stop some sick asshole from committing a crime like this.

This is possibly true.

should it be a coach or officer's duty to instill common human decency into people too?

It is absolutely their responsibility to reasonably do all in their power to do so, both by direct training and by example. They may fail at it through *no* fault of their own. They may fail at it through *some* fault of their own. Or they may have completely shirked that responsibility. In all those cases referenced above, it needs to be investigated to see which it is.

[Guest coach]

i think i stopped having my hand-held while crossing the street in kindergarten. i guess coaches should still be doing it at the collegiate level.

That's irrelevant.

huh?

the only way a coach can possible control what the athletes (who are adults) do every waking minute of each day would be to literally attach themselves at the hip.

So a leader has absolutely no control over his followers whatsoever? What's the point of being a leader' date=' then? What's the point of having a command and control structure, then?

[/quote']

Under that theory, every crime committed in this country is the president's fault.

Only if you can only see life in extremes of black and white. Which I do not, nor have I been advocating above.

[Guest trancepriest]

which is all the more reason why an adult, or adults, are responsible for THEIR OWN actions.

Dude do you think people in the military are responsible for their own actions? HELL NO. They get shit canned and so does their entire unit or their leader. When I was a Non Commisonend Officer I was responsible for fucking Marines that wanted to eat their way out of the Marines. I had to fucking solve the problem. If one of my Marines was late to formation.. I was responsible... if they had bad breath... I was responsible... if they didn't shave... I was responsible... if they didn't have a regulation haircut... I was responsible... if they didn't shine their boots... I was responsible... if they didn't iron their uniform... I was responsible.. if they were drunk... I was responsible. If their rifle was all fucked up... I was responsible. If they went on leave and never came back... I was responsible. If they failed their physical fitness test.. I was responsible. Dude I babysitted those Marines like they were my little girls. And thats the burden of leadership.

[Guest JMT]

It is absolutely their responsibility to reasonably do all in their power to do so, both by direct training and by example. They may fail at it through *no* fault of their own. They may fail at it through *some* fault of their own. Or they may have completely shirked that responsibility. In all those cases referenced above, it needs to be investigated to see which it is.

they actually need to teach people not to rape??? thats a good one.

im sorry, but when you do something that sick, there is nothing that would stop you at one point or another.

[Guest trancepriest]

they actually need to teach people not to rape??? thats a good one.

im sorry, but when you do something that sick, there is nothing that would stop you at one point or another.

Lots of dynamics that could stop a rape in the military. Soldiers have to report any talk/plans of rape or murder. Just like how high school students have to report any talk or plans to commit such crimes. If 5 soldiers raped a girl... I bet you some didn't want to but was afraid and so went along. This happens because in war its very easy to get killed by friendly fire... if you get my drift. An anonymous way of alerting the command has to be established. Soldiers have to feel safe in reporting this stuff to their chain of command. This rape of the 14 year old was premeditated. I can bet my money that the other soldiers went along with their leader. You have to understand the dynamics of leadership and violence in the military. Most soldiers would never go against their leadership. That has to change.

Infantry troops are in a way trained like dogs. Yes they do have to be reminded not to rape. They have to be reminded that they will be home soon. They have to be reminded of the severe consequences. Their discipline and morale have to be constantly monitored.

[Guest JMT]

It is absolutely their responsibility to reasonably do all in their power to do so, both by direct training and by example. They may fail at it through *no* fault of their own. They may fail at it through *some* fault of their own. Or they may have completely shirked that responsibility. In all those cases referenced above, it needs to be investigated to see which it is.

they actually need to teach people not to rape??? thats a good one.

im sorry, but when you do something that sick, there is nothing that would stop you at one point or another.

Lots of dynamics that could stop a rape in the military. Soldiers have to report any talk/plans of rape or murder. Just like how high school students have to report any talk or plans to commit such crimes. If 5 soldiers raped a girl... I bet you some didn't want to but was afraid and so went along. This happens because in war its very easy to get killed by friendly fire... if you get my drift. An anonymous way of alerting the command has to be established. Soldiers have to feel safe in reporting this stuff to their chain of command. This rape of the 14 year old was premeditated. I can bet my money that the other soldiers went along with their leader. You have to understand the dynamics of leadership and violence in the military. Most soldiers would never go against their leadership. That has to change.

im with you... everyone who was involved should be punished, leaders included. but to blame those higher up that had nothing to do with it whatsoever does not sense to me, and that is what was being impled.

and you can remind someone all you want, at the end of the day they are still going to do whatever the fuck they want to if given an opportunity.

[Guest trancepriest]

im with you... everyone who was involved should be punished, leaders included. but to blame those higher up that had nothing to do with it whatsoever does not sense to me, and that is what was being impled.

and you can remind someone all you want, at the end of the day they are still going to do whatever the fuck they want to if given an opportunity.

It may seem crazy to you... but in the military leaders even if not directly involved in an incident are often held responsible for it. If privates on a military base often go off base and beat up civilians for fun (real world example). Then after civilians keep turning up injured month after month. Then the colonel of the base is held responsible. This happens all the time in the military. The colonel is held responsible for morale and discipline... esprit de corps. If a captain of a submarine crashes a submarine even fucking once... he's held responsible and often relieved of duty... even if his navigator made the mistake. No excuses in the military for certain fuck ups.

[Guest JMT]

It may seem crazy to you... but in the military leaders even if not directly involved in an incident are often held responsible for it. If privates on a military base often go off base and beat up civilians for fun (real world example). Then after civilians keep turning up injured month after month. Then the colonel of the base is held responsible. This happens all the time in the military. The colonel is held responsible for morale and discipline... esprit de corps.

so when these gang rapes and murders to cover it up keep happening month after month i guess their colonel should start to get blamed.

[Guest trancepriest]

when these gang rapes and murders to cover it up keep happening month after month i guess the colonel should get blamed.

We're talking of one guy in charge of thousands of troops. The colonel that I had in Guantanamo was also my colonel in Camp Lejeune, NC. He faced this problem big time. Leadership is a bitch. The General in charge of Abu Gharaib was releived of command. Mind you she was also in charge of other prisons too. She had no idea what those fuckers were doing and she was relieved just because of not knowing what was happening under her command.

[Guest JMT]

when these gang rapes and murders to cover it up keep happening month after month i guess the colonel should get blamed.

We're talking of one guy in charge of thousands of troops. The colonel that I had in Guantanamo was also my colonel in Camp Lejeune, NC. He faced this problem big time. Leadership is a bitch. The General in charge of Abu Gharaib was releived of command. Mind you she was also in charge of other prisons too. She had no idea what those fuckers were doing and she was relieved just because of not knowing what was happening under her command.

one moment vs. a lengthy period

all the more reason for me to think that in a combat zone there could be a window of opportunity for a handful of sickos (who might have acted normal otherwise) to do something like this, all in a short time, beknownst to anyone who wasnt directly involved. and the guilty individuals can and should be punished severly. if its the beginning of a pattern, then its a macro issue.

[Guest swirlundergrounder]

which is all the more reason why an adult, or adults, are responsible for THEIR OWN actions.

Dude do you think people in the military are responsible for their own actions? HELL NO. They get shit canned and so does their entire unit or their leader. When I was a Non Commisonend Officer I was responsible for fucking Marines that wanted to eat their way out of the Marines. I had to fucking solve the problem. If one of my Marines was late to formation.. I was responsible... if they had bad breath... I was responsible... if they didn't shave... I was responsible... if they didn't have a regulation haircut... I was responsible... if they didn't shine their boots... I was responsible... if they didn't iron their uniform... I was responsible.. if they were drunk... I was responsible. If their rifle was all fucked up... I was responsible. If they went on leave and never came back... I was responsible. If they failed their physical fitness test.. I was responsible. Dude I babysitted those Marines like they were my little girls. And thats the burden of leadership.

You were in the military? Do you have a picture of yourself jumping out of a plane like the one Dr Logic takes so much pride in? LOL

[Guest trancepriest]

You were in the military? Do you have a picture of yourself jumping out of a plane like the one Dr Logic takes so much pride in? LOL

Actually I'm just schizophrenic and like to pretend I was in the Marine Corps. ;D

[Guest slamminshaun]

Two Fresno College Athletes arrested in rape of 11 year old girl.....as many as 10 involved!!! This on the heels of the rape case at Duke University. I guess we should withdraw athletes and sports from all the colleges right?

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2006/07/09/state/n192544D70.DTL

Turns out the suspects are locals. One graduated from Palm Beach Lakes High School and the other from John Carrol High in Fort Pierce. Here's Davis' yearbook picture.

[Guest swirlundergrounder]

Two Fresno College Athletes arrested in rape of 11 year old girl.....as many as 10 involved!!! This on the heels of the rape case at Duke University. I guess we should withdraw athletes and sports from all the colleges right?

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2006/07/09/state/n192544D70.DTL

Turns out the suspects are locals. One graduated from Palm Beach Lakes High School and the other from John Carrol High in Fort Pierce. Here's Davis' yearbook picture.

Then Jeb Bush is to blame for all of this then...