Our Scene - Dead or Alive?

[Guest JustDade]

This Dt thread has me thinking again about the state of the scene here in Miami. I see a lot of talk on this and other forums about the scene being dead and I just have to call bullshit.

As an old guy from Coconut Grove / Coral Gables I have the benefit of long-term perspective. I remember when I first started going to clubs, (I was 18, legal drinking age st the time, in 1981), and there was not one to attend in South Beach. All the action was in the Grove. Biscayne Baby's, Faces, Stringfellows, Cats.......cocaine on the tabletops...Columbians with guns. In other words, the good old days. Back then we went places because we had fun there or our friends were going there. If you had told me then that we were going to pay to get into a club because a certain DJ was spinning there, I would have called you crazy, (after all....who would pay money to hear some guy play records?).

Then there came SoBe. It happened fast and seemed unstoppable. But that also changed. What was once all about VIP became, for many, about music and DJs. $20 or less would get you Sasha at Groovejet or Oakenfold at Shadow. The drugs were flowing and people loved everything and everyone.

Now it's all about the VIP and the celebrity. Mansion, Prive and Set rule the roost. Hip Hop is a must.

The point is that nothing stays the same. People tend to go to clubs from a certain age to a certain age. Then they're replaced by the new crop of clubbers. The thing is, the new crop usually wants something different from the old crop. When I first started clubbing most club Djs played top 40 or Disco. When SoBe started it was all "New York House." Then came more progressive sounds and you all know the rest.

Why is anyone surprised that "dance" is getting harder to promote? It's what has always happened.

You Junkies have a skewed perspective. You gather on a board with like-minded people, which gives you the impression that there are many of you. In fact, you are few and getting to be fewer. I love to hear the opinions of Ramon or Biz because they represent the hard-core believers. However, the truth is that outside the world of Cj and Space, dance is a hard ticket to sell.

Is the scene dead? The answer is NO! FUCK NO!!! I was at Mansion on a Wednesday two weeks ago....packed. Set on Thursday....PACKED. If you ask the Milon Brothers and Roman Jones They'll tell you the scene rocks. Why not.....they're doing record numbers and not paying a DJ $25K to do it. Of course they're not trying to shove progressive house down people's throats either.

You may lament the loss of what was your favorite music or club but it does not indicate a dying scene. Quite the contrary, it indicates a healthy, non-stagnant scene.

[Guest pod]

I "came on board" in clubland about a decade ago when I moved down here. Other than sporadic ventures to New York places when I was way underage, my experience started at the beginnings of the whole DJ-oriented revolution down here.

That being said, even within DJ-oriented clubs, things changed. Trance to house, that sort of thing. But yeah, things change.

A big mistake a lot of DJs and promoters on here make is thinking that the population of this board here is an accurate cross-section of the Miami clubbing community as a whole. It's not. It's a very targeted demographic posting here. Most of which go to specific events to support friends.

And when someone comes around asking about something not music-oriented, that person tends to get insulted and vilified rather than helped out. I'd like to think that if we helped out someone who is maybe looking for a Mansion or Cameo VIP experience, that they would come back and contribute, and possibly check out one of "our" events just to see what the ruckus was about.

Now I don't really travel in VIP circles. I'm not very comfortable amongst the jet-set. However, I do realize that it's their money keeping clubland afloat, so I'm not about to deny them their fun.

[Guest DJ Nova]

This Dt thread has me thinking again about the state of the scene here in Miami. I see a lot of talk on this and other forums about the scene being dead and I just have to call bullshit.

As an old guy from Coconut Grove / Coral Gables I have the benefit of long-term perspective. I remember when I first started going to clubs, (I was 18, legal drinking age st the time, in 1981), and there was not one to attend in South Beach. All the action was in the Grove. Biscayne Baby's, Faces, Stringfellows, Cats.......cocaine on the tabletops...Columbians with guns. In other words, the good old days. Back then we went places because we had fun there or our friends were going there. If you had told me then that we were going to pay to get into a club because a certain DJ was spinning there, I would have called you crazy, (after all....who would pay money to hear some guy play records?).

Then there came SoBe. It happened fast and seemed unstoppable. But that also changed. What was once all about VIP became, for many, about music and DJs. $20 or less would get you Sasha at Groovejet or Oakenfold at Shadow. The drugs were flowing and people loved everything and everyone.

Now it's all about the VIP and the celebrity. Mansion, Prive and Set rule the roost. Hip Hop is a must.

The point is that nothing stays the same. People tend to go to clubs from a certain age to a certain age. Then they're replaced by the new crop of clubbers. The thing is, the new crop usually wants something different from the old crop. When I first started clubbing most club Djs played top 40 or Disco. When SoBe started it was all "New York House." Then came more progressive sounds and you all know the rest.

Why is anyone surprised that "dance" is getting harder to promote? It's what has always happened.

You Junkies have a skewed perspective. You gather on a board with like-minded people, which gives you the impression that there are many of you. In fact, you are few and getting to be fewer. I love to hear the opinions of Ramon or Biz because they represent the hard-core believers. However, the truth is that outside the world of Cj and Space, dance is a hard ticket to sell.

Is the scene dead? The answer is NO! FUCK NO!!! I was at Mansion on a Wednesday two weeks ago....packed. Set on Thursday....PACKED. If you ask the Milon Brothers and Roman Jones They'll tell you the scene rocks. Why not.....they're doing record numbers and not paying a DJ $25K to do it. Of course they're not trying to shove progressive house down people's throats either.

You may lament the loss of what was your favorite music or club but it does not indicate a dying scene. Quite the contrary, it indicates a healthy, non-stagnant scene.

there is only a 2 sided scene here for the most part (in dance music): Progressive & Circuit. The other genres in EDM (techno,house) are struggling to stay afloat ...when they THRIVE in Most other places!

Dade, the scene you speak of is certainly not dead, but the one that I speak of....Non-Commercial Dance music, is hangin on by a life line. Techno, Minimal, House, Deep House....all these genres suffer here.....only because of the lack of knowledge.

With my events I have tried to make a difference here, but people like you just push me away (sometimes literally)

I know Electronic Music like i know the back of my hand.

Just because i don't flaunt on here like ramon....shouldn't cause me to recieve any less respect.......and yet it DOES. I'm not mean or nasty to anyone....i am opionated and at times frustrated but I have done nothing but open my arms to work with different promoters and djs over the years.

Yet, just being acknowledged as a dj in Miami is still something I fight for everyday.

The elitism is here, but it's not within the Minimal or Techno or House communities....it's in the mainstream clubs (Space, Nocturnal,Mansion,Opium etc...) some of those venues have never returned my phone calls after countless attempts to contact them. If people dont' care what music or dj is playing, then why is it such a big deal to try different music once in awhile ? The music scene is TOTALLY STAGNANT ......it's the same acts year after year for how many years now !?

You are totally out of touch with music.

[Guest LeVeL]

In my opinion the Scene is not Dead but its certaintly dieing thats for sure. For as many EDM parties out there, there are a lot more being replaced by either Hip Hop or Open Format.

I go out to clubs for the good music, girls and to drink. A great party to me has to consist of all three. I feel insulted when people say that EDM supporters dont like to spend money to support some of these parties. I really feel that the resident DJ's that are playing these EDM clubs need to step it up, they need to keep us the crowd interested in wanting to go out week in and week out, please dont try to educate us but keep us atleast interested.

[Guest pod]

Not to continually defend the man, but Dade isn't out of touch with music. Him and the crew at Shadow Lounge launched the successful part of many a DJ's career here in Miami and certainly the US. Sure, some of them may have played at Simon's or Joey's or the backroom at Crazy Carlos' Fish n Chips in Vero Beach before, but they certainly weren't getting well-compensated for it.

Like you, he doesn't have to go around bragging about it. You were around then, Shadow Lounge bought a lot of people to Miami, even at a loss.

[Guest ramon]

Not to continually defend the man, but Dade isn't out of touch with music. Him and the crew at Shadow Lounge launched the successful part of many a DJ's career here in Miami and certainly the US. Sure, some of them may have played at Simon's or Joey's or the backroom at Crazy Carlos' Fish n Chips in Vero Beach before, but they certainly weren't getting well-compensated for it.

Like you, he doesn't have to go around bragging about it. You were around then, Shadow Lounge bought a lot of people to Miami, even at a loss.

you really need to do your research on Simons before you talk like that. Simons was a Legendary club here in this country that many people called home. Paul Van Dyk called it his favorite place to play. It wasn't some home in the wall that you just made it out to be.

[Guest coach]

Moved here 4.5 years ago. Still having a ball! Hell, even back then they didn't play my preferred sub-style of EDM. But any EDM is pretty much better than whatever else is out there, so why bother complaining?

[Guest gimp]

you know your scene is dead when people think cedric is a good dj ha ha ha

[Guest JustDade]

there is only a 2 sided scene here for the most part (in dance music): Progressive & Circuit. The other genres in EDM (techno,house) are struggling to stay afloat ...when they THRIVE in Most other places!

Dade, the scene you speak of is certainly not dead, but the one that I speak of....Non-Commercial Dance music, is hangin on by a life line. Techno, Minimal, House, Deep House....all these genres suffer here.....only because of the lack of knowledge.

With my events I have tried to make a difference here, but people like you just push me away (sometimes literally)

I know Electronic Music like i know the back of my hand.

Just because i don't flaunt on here like ramon....shouldn't cause me to recieve any less respect.......and yet it DOES. I'm not mean or nasty to anyone....i am opionated and at times frustrated but I have done nothing but open my arms to work with different promoters and djs over the years.

Yet, just being acknowledged as a dj in Miami is still something I fight for everyday.

The elitism is here, but it's not within the Minimal or Techno or House communities....it's in the mainstream clubs (Space, Nocturnal,Mansion,Opium etc...) some of those venues have never returned my phone calls after countless attempts to contact them. If people dont' care what music or dj is playing, then why is it such a big deal to try different music once in awhile ? The music scene is TOTALLY STAGNANT ......it's the same acts year after year for how many years now !?

You are totally out of touch with music.

I am not out of touch with music. I listen to new "dance" every day. You're missing the point....again.

When you say things like "Non-Commercial Dance music, is hangin on by a life line. Techno, Minimal, House, Deep House....all these genres suffer here.....only because of the lack of knowledge.", it makes you sound like an ass. I don't need you nor DT to tell me what to like. Who are you to think you know more about what music is good than anyone else? When you say "people like you" what do you mean? Successful people? People with money? Business People? Before you answer this post do a little research and find out who I am and what I have done in this town for Dance Music and then tell me about how much you know. Those types of statements are the reasons you get less respect from me than Ramon. Claiming that Space does $500K on any Saturday when the real number isn't even %20 of that makes you look dumb but standing by that when people who are "inside" tell you it isn't so makes you just silly.

How do you explain the failure of Privelege when they played nothing but underground Techno? What about Nerve, who brought in nothing but underground dance geniuses?

You assume that because I don't agree with you that I am out of touch. You're wrong and ignorant. I just happen to be in-touch with reality.

Who would you suggest we book and what should we play to make everything great again? Give me a name and I'll tell you who's already lost money trying it. AND DON'T GIVE ME THIS SHIT ABOUT THERE BEING MORE TO IT THAN MONEY. That's always the position of the guy who doesn't have to pay the rent.

[Guest pod]

you really need to do your research on Simons before you talk like that. Simons was a Legendary club here in this country that many people called home. Paul Van Dyk called it his favorite place to play. It wasn't some home in the wall that you just made it out to be.

I never said it was a hole in the wall. What I was getting at was that Nelson shouldn't say Dade is clueless to music, when it was Dade who saw some of these DJs playing smaller-type places and decided to bring them to Miami for the big time. Never went there, but I know Simon's was not a hole in the wall. Joey's sucked, and Crazy Carlos' was probably a bio-war factory with all the mold.

I'm sorry if I insulted the Vatican (or should it be the Wailing Wall with the way some of the music contingent whines?) of dance music land.

[Guest ramon]

you really need to do your research on Simons before you talk like that. Simons was a Legendary club here in this country that many people called home. Paul Van Dyk called it his favorite place to play. It wasn't some home in the wall that you just made it out to be.

I never said it was a hole in the wall. What I was getting at was that Nelson shouldn't say Dade is clueless to music, when it was Dade who saw some of these DJs playing smaller-type places and decided to bring them to Miami for the big time. Never went there, but I know Simon's was not a hole in the wall. Joey's sucked, and Crazy Carlos' was probably a bio-war factory with all the mold.

I'm sorry if I insulted the Vatican (or should it be the Wailing Wall with the way some of the music contingent whines?) of dance music land.

Simons was not small that's all I want you to understand.

Simons booked this Sasha guy cause he heard a mixtape he liked. It was all very new back then though so it was a different era.

I always wanted to go to Shadow but I wasn't old enough. However I do know what Dade did and it's importance in our scene here.

[Guest DJ Nova]

I am not out of touch with music. I listen to new "dance" every day. You're missing the point....again.

*Sure you do....

When you say things like "Non-Commercial Dance music, is hangin on by a life line. Techno, Minimal, House, Deep House....all these genres suffer here.....only because of the lack of knowledge.", it makes you sound like an ass. I don't need you nor DT to tell me what to like. Who are you to think you know more about what music is good than anyone else?

*That's a REAL DJ's job is to show people the latest music, that they'll like. Of course you have no concept of that. It's my job as a DJ to know. I can make a crowd move wherever you put me and the fact that people don't and won't ....is they're lack of knowledge.

When you say "people like you" what do you mean? Successful people? People with money? Business People? Before you answer this post do a little research and find out who I am and what I have done in this town for Dance Music and then tell me about how much you know. Those types of statements are the reasons you get less respect from me than Ramon. Claiming that Space does $500K on any Saturday when the real number isn't even %20 of that makes you look dumb but standing by that when people who are "inside" tell you it isn't so makes you just silly.

*Silly are you with your claims, you've done NOTHING for Miami as far as I'm concered. Honestly, I could care less how much Space makes, "inside"......? What makes you so credible, and why would you want that information out ? There's ALOT of money going through there....more than you claim.

How do you explain the failure of Privelege when they played nothing but underground Techno? What about Nerve, who brought in nothing but underground dance geniuses?

*The residents were not strong enough to carry that club when there wasn't anyone there, And even though I very much enjoyed who they brought.....they made bad decisions.....AGAIN, they didn't consult the local techno guys.

You assume that because I don't agree with you that I am out of touch. You're wrong and ignorant. I just happen to be in-touch with reality.

*Your reality is different from my reality.

Who would you suggest we book and what should we play to make everything great again? Give me a name and I'll tell you who's already lost money trying it. AND DON'T GIVE ME THIS SHIT ABOUT THERE BEING MORE TO IT THAN MONEY. That's always the position of the guy who doesn't have to pay the rent.

Come to my parties and find out, You're not ALL knowing either, DADE, and if people lost money it's cause they didn't do it right.

[Guest nickjunkie]

Dade, love ya. Would just like to point out however that CJ hosts a lot more than just DJ followers. Much more of an overall nightlife site these days. A place for everyone and all that. We do recognize the cyclical nature of clubland...

Lecture over. Cheers

[Guest pod]

Not necessarily. I've seen the best in the biz book people you would love and still lose their ass. Sometimes it's nigh-impossible to make a decent buck on some people. Sometimes a DJ or performer just doesn't work for a paying crowd in a given city.

It's why they invented traveling. And I guess like the rest of the Wailing Wall brigade, you're going to Detroit this weekend. Can't wait to hear how much Miami sucks come Tuesday.

[Guest JustDade]

Nick....you still work at CJ?

[Guest nickjunkie]

Nick....you still work at CJ?

Yeah contrary to popular belief I still have a hand in here and there...

[Guest DJ Nova]

Simons was not small that's all I want you to understand.

Simons booked this Sasha guy cause he heard a mixtape he liked. It was all very new back then though so it was a different era.

I always wanted to go to Shadow but I wasn't old enough. However I do know what Dade did and it's importance in our scene here.

Shadowlounge was nothing underground, they brought derrick may once, and didn't even promote it!!!! It was more of ...people that don't know what they're doing in Music ....running a MUSIC establishment .

[Guest pod]

Nick....you still work at CJ?

Hah. Oh and don't tell him how I was really drunk that time and I claimed to "run the house". ;D

[Guest Untouchable Chino]

the SCENE will NEVER DIE..the day that happens its the day..time stops ticking and that will never happen..

we are no one to judge what music controls the scene, or what individual populates the scene, or what kind of club runs the scene...there is different size of venues and different minds of operators..what the OPIUM GROUP does is totally different then what other clubs intend to do.. the mistake people make is that they try to COMPETE against OPIUM GROUP by trying to imitate their formula..and its something that leads to people to failure..

the truth is, that the people who complain about the "scene being dead" are those who havent evolved with time and still listen to the same records and the same music day in and day out...istead of getting with the program and evolving..

as human beings, we are to adapt to what is around us and by doing so we live on..if we were to base today's world on yesterday's believes..we would be idiots and totally ignorant..

so the day the scene dies, is the day you as an individual refuse to evolve with the scene itself...

[Guest coach]

Not necessarily. I've seen the best in the biz book people you would love and still lose their ass. Sometimes it's nigh-impossible to make a decent buck on some people.

It's why they invented traveling.

No. That's why they invented advertising.

Nick....you still work at CJ?

Hah. Oh and don't tell him how I was really drunk that time and I claimed to "run the house". ;D

Um, that *one* time???

[Guest JustDade]

I am not out of touch with music. I listen to new "dance" every day. You're missing the point....again.

*Sure you do....

When you say things like "Non-Commercial Dance music, is hangin on by a life line. Techno, Minimal, House, Deep House....all these genres suffer here.....only because of the lack of knowledge.", it makes you sound like an ass. I don't need you nor DT to tell me what to like. Who are you to think you know more about what music is good than anyone else?

*That's a REAL DJ's job is to show people the latest music, that they'll like. Of course you have no concept of that. It's my job as a DJ to know. I can make a crowd move wherever you put me and the fact that people don't and won't ....is they're lack of knowledge.

When you say "people like you" what do you mean? Successful people? People with money? Business People? Before you answer this post do a little research and find out who I am and what I have done in this town for Dance Music and then tell me about how much you know. Those types of statements are the reasons you get less respect from me than Ramon. Claiming that Space does $500K on any Saturday when the real number isn't even %20 of that makes you look dumb but standing by that when people who are "inside" tell you it isn't so makes you just silly.

*Silly are you with your claims, you've done NOTHING for Miami as far as I'm concered. Honestly, I could care less how much Space makes, "inside"......? What makes you so credible, and why would you want that information out ? There's ALOT of money going through there....more than you claim.

How do you explain the failure of Privelege when they played nothing but underground Techno? What about Nerve, who brought in nothing but underground dance geniuses?

*The residents were not strong enough to carry that club when there wasn't anyone there, And even though I very much enjoyed who they brought.....they made bad decisions.....AGAIN, they didn't consult the local techno guys.

You assume that because I don't agree with you that I am out of touch. You're wrong and ignorant. I just happen to be in-touch with reality.

*Your reality is different from my reality.

Who would you suggest we book and what should we play to make everything great again? Give me a name and I'll tell you who's already lost money trying it. AND DON'T GIVE ME THIS SHIT ABOUT THERE BEING MORE TO IT THAN MONEY. That's always the position of the guy who doesn't have to pay the rent.

Come to my parties and find out, You're not ALL knowing either, DADE, and if people lost money it's cause they didn't do it right.

Sorry....but you're just wrong. I do, in fact listen to everything I can get my hands on. I find myself attracted more to the commercial stuff these days as I am getting old. That said, it makes no difference.

Your position seems to infer that there is a huge audience out there just waiting for what you have to offer. It's just not so. That's proven by the fact that none of the major players do it. Do you really think that Louis Puig would not be all over it if there was money in it? That's just crazy.

You have an excuse for everything. Nobody does it right.....but you know the secret. Their resident DJs were no good.....but you are? You have no respect for those who have paved the way but you want respect from people you've never proven a thing to. You want the shot at the big club but don't want to pay any dues.

What makes me credible is that I have broken some of the biggest names in the biz in Miami and America. I have been successful in this market for over ten years. I have owned and operated several venues. And you are the one who claimed to know how much Space brings in. I just corrected your incredibly wrong assertion. My resume speaks for itself.

What makes you credible? I appreciate that you believe in what you're doing but your attitude is not going to help you.

For the record; A "real" DJ's job is to entertain the crowd. It's that simple. You're not a teacher. You're not their Daddy. You're the fucking DJ. Get over yourself.

[Guest karenmartin]

Is the scene dead? The answer is NO! FUCK NO!!! I was at Mansion on a Wednesday two weeks ago....packed. Set on Thursday....PACKED. If you ask the Milon Brothers and Roman Jones They'll tell you the scene rocks. Why not.....they're doing record numbers and not paying a DJ $25K to do it.

..and Suite on Saturdays-PACKED! (plis...tito..inexplicable..imsorry but yes is like a "twilight zone" succesful night..seriously)

totally agree with this part, sadly (in my opinion) but true!

[Guest pod]

LP would book turtle races on the patio if it made economic sense to do so.

There's no cabal or secret conspiracy of DJ bookings in this town, the bookings are based on economics. Sometimes friendships and networking enter into that, but I've seen plenty of DJs that are friends with the owners of venues not get booked since unfortunately it would be a loss. The good DJs either change up or they just understand the realities and moved on.

Very good case in point, a friend of mine is having a banner year this year. He used to play Space a lot and was a resident for a bit. His numbers fell off, and they had to let him go. He knew the realities of the situation and moved on. He's now playing massive events on a global scale a few times a month and then some. No sour grapes, no nothing. He kept his artist integrity intact and found markets that welcomed him with open arms.

[Guest JustDade]

Simons was not small that's all I want you to understand.

Simons booked this Sasha guy cause he heard a mixtape he liked. It was all very new back then though so it was a different era.

I always wanted to go to Shadow but I wasn't old enough. However I do know what Dade did and it's importance in our scene here.

Shadowlounge was nothing underground, they brought derrick may once, and didn't even promote it!!!! It was more of ...people that don't know what they're doing in Music ....running a MUSIC establishment .

This coming from a guy whos big gig is playing Wednesday nights at a sushi restaurant owned by my friend Jacques.

You still haven't answered my question......who should we book? What's your master plan?

Let me guess......

We make you the resident DJ of a big club. We let you play whatever you want. We pay the bills, and your fee, even though you only draw 52 people who are all on the guestlist. We hang in there losing money because you're sure the education will catch on. We go out of business because we hung our hopes on a clueless douchebag. You go on to blame the failure on LP and Hip-Hop and un-knowledgeable people. You're back at Indochine the next week playing to 22 heads who think you're just peachy.

[Guest klubveteran]

This Dt thread has me thinking again about the state of the scene here in Miami. I see a lot of talk on this and other forums about the scene being dead and I just have to call bullshit.

As an old guy from Coconut Grove / Coral Gables I have the benefit of long-term perspective. I remember when I first started going to clubs, (I was 18, legal drinking age st the time, in 1981), and there was not one to attend in South Beach. All the action was in the Grove. Biscayne Baby's, Faces, Stringfellows, Cats.......cocaine on the tabletops...Columbians with guns. In other words, the good old days. Back then we went places because we had fun there or our friends were going there. If you had told me then that we were going to pay to get into a club because a certain DJ was spinning there, I would have called you crazy, (after all....who would pay money to hear some guy play records?).

Then there came SoBe. It happened fast and seemed unstoppable. But that also changed. What was once all about VIP became, for many, about music and DJs. $20 or less would get you Sasha at Groovejet or Oakenfold at Shadow. The drugs were flowing and people loved everything and everyone.

Now it's all about the VIP and the celebrity. Mansion, Prive and Set rule the roost. Hip Hop is a must.

The point is that nothing stays the same. People tend to go to clubs from a certain age to a certain age. Then they're replaced by the new crop of clubbers. The thing is, the new crop usually wants something different from the old crop. When I first started clubbing most club Djs played top 40 or Disco. When SoBe started it was all "New York House." Then came more progressive sounds and you all know the rest.

Why is anyone surprised that "dance" is getting harder to promote? It's what has always happened.

You Junkies have a skewed perspective. You gather on a board with like-minded people, which gives you the impression that there are many of you. In fact, you are few and getting to be fewer. I love to hear the opinions of Ramon or Biz because they represent the hard-core believers. However, the truth is that outside the world of Cj and Space, dance is a hard ticket to sell.

Is the scene dead? The answer is NO! FUCK NO!!! I was at Mansion on a Wednesday two weeks ago....packed. Set on Thursday....PACKED. If you ask the Milon Brothers and Roman Jones They'll tell you the scene rocks. Why not.....they're doing record numbers and not paying a DJ $25K to do it. Of course they're not trying to shove progressive house down people's throats either.

You may lament the loss of what was your favorite music or club but it does not indicate a dying scene. Quite the contrary, it indicates a healthy, non-stagnant scene.

oh boy this is going to trigger a nice 20 page thread....

and awaaaaay we go.

8)