sasha and digweed(light years ahead!)

[rjr.]

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[This message has been edited by rjr. (edited 05-31-2000).]

[back2basics]

Agreed,

but new music always comes from hardship.

House - the Chicago gay scene.

Techno - Detroit (nuff said).

D & B - Brixton (London)

Kraftwerk wern't the origional electronica band either people like Brian Eno & John Cage were doing samples,messing with sounds and mixing (on tape) years before Kraftwerk.

I am not sure about Europe being the best, we have a head start, but in the last few years it's all moving on over here (not just NY). The thing that is needed is for some of the independent labels to make some money, selling 500,000 copies of a commercial song has really helped things along in the UK as that money gets put into new emerging talent - something the EMI,Sony etc haven't done for years.

I think this US/Europe thing is a little irrelevant you only ever here it over here. I love the Deep NY house sound just as much as the more "banging" UK sound.

But you haven't herd Sasha unless you herd him at his first residency at Shelly's.

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[This message has been edited by back2basics (edited 05-30-2000).]

[rjr.]

my point is not that we are inferior musically but scene wise..sure you have a few underground spots here in Ny but not enough to make an influence on the mainstream.this is my point..turn on the radio at rush hour and what do you got?certainly not anything you heard at any underground spot.where as in the europe scence whats underground here is mainstream there..this is what makes the difference.i should have maded it clear, i mainly am refering to the Newyork scence..which i hope one day will improve over all on a bigger scale..as far as chicago is concerned you got your mike dunns,larry heards,and marshall jeffersons but ask your self...have you ever heard that stuff on mainstream radio here...No..And Its Sad!why is it at a certain point most of these guys started sell all their stuff overseas...yeah money...but also due to the fact when they walk the streets here they are really nobody special...but in Europe they are rockstars!i happen to be good friends with Armand van helden and he tells me the samething...he walks up to the door at tunnel and get dissed!do you think that would ever happen in Europe...hes a God there!look a roger sanchez too...he doesnt care about the Newyork thing because it doesnt care about him..maybe the underground headz care but not the mainstream..Hey Europe may have covered the electronica thing but we certainly got the funk...Eddie grant -"time warp" -----Larry heard"can you feel it"----where is this sound here in the states because i can find it!and i mean the off spring off this sound....well ill tell you where it is...mostly in Europe.....Maybe i cleared it up for you..i have much respect for all the people you understand the realness but none for those who speak with out truly understanding what they are saying!and i am not refering to you...but to the people who tried to dis tech house and also the fact that sasha and john are playing this sound..i will not disagree with anyones feelings on them as djs i cant be at all their performances to make and over all judgement on the matter..nor do i want to...it will be awhile befor the mainstream resembles anything like the Euro scence so for the time being i will just have to keep buying imports...because 95% of my collection current day is just that...with the exception of my dj internationals, trax, etc...peace my brother!!

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[johnb]

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not dissing on trance as a form of music, and if you enjoy, have a nice one. But because of what was said in earlier posts about all dance music except salsa being pretty underground in the States, you guys just don't realise how commercial this stuff is. You spend some time in Europe and hear BBE next to Jennifer Lopez on MTV, or ATB till you want to throw your radio out the window and you will understand.

So that's why all these trance DJs are rushing to tour the States, because they're so played out in Europe. And no you won't hear Sasha play trance in Ibiza. That's less likely than hearing him play it in NY because there no one could take it.

If you want to hear trance in Ibiza go hear the king of British cheese, Judge Jules, who not surprisingly has changed his style from cheesy house to cheesy trance. And he also plays the Gatecrasher every week now because the mecca of trance can't find anyone else who will play it anymore. If Judge Jules plays a British club you can be sure it's better days are behind it.

Face it, it's dying under the weight of its popularity.

And Tiesto and Ferry Corsten? Sure they make good stuff, but when did they become underground? They make Dutch radio music.

A quote from one of the only major Dutch producer who has a serious claim to being underground:

"Sasha's inspiring. He's so popular, and he could take it easy, you know, just play Ferry Corsten records, but he's always one step ahead. He takes it all unbelievably seriously."

And yes he could probably make more money in the short term selling out like Oakenfold, but he already makes plenty of money and this way he will have more staying power and be around longer. You won't want to puke when you hear his name due to being so played out. And he probably gets more personal reward out of being on the cutting edge.

I have ultimate respect for Sasha and really give him credit for keeping it somewhat real. And Digweed, no pretensions, just tearing the roof off every time out.

JohnB

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[johnb]

BTW, on that last post I left off the name of the Dutch producer I was talking about, Sander Kleinenberg, he's brilliant as a DJ and a producer.

JOhnB

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[blueangel]

I really don't have a comment as to what you wrote cause personal opinion is exactly that personal. However, there are couple of your points that I would like to respond to. . .

Firstly, you ask us (who like trance) not to be insulted by your remark, but then you turn around and call it cheesy. Are we suppose to say "Duh, okay, we like cheesy music??" Don't start criticizing and not expect some of us to be a lil' offended.

Secondly, I keep on hearing how everybody keeps on saying that most if not all of the DJs are going mainstream or selling except for Sasha. Let me just remind you that couple of years ago when Madonna went to Sasha to ask him to work on her Rays of Light CD . .. he laughed in her face and turned her away. NOW, recently, he has agreed to work with her on a album. If that's not mainstream then I don't know what is?

I personally think that all these DJs are just trying to create their own style of music and if they have to go mainstream sometimes to make money then so be it!!! I'm sure all of you would do the same if you were in their shoes as well. You can't make music if your broke and hungry. =)

Finally, it seems that couple of you are european (correct me if I'm wrong), because you keep on talking about how boring trance is in the UK . . how played out it is. Well, all I can say is that I don't live in the UK . . . I don't hear it all the time on the radio or on MTV . . so I guess I don't share the same view as you when you say that Trance is played out cause it sure isn't played out here. And if Judge Jules, Ferry Corsten, PVD, Scott Bond ect. ect. have to come to the US to make money then I say, "HEY DON'T FORGET TO STOP BY NEW YORK!!!"

BlueAngel

P.L.U.R.

Originally posted by johnb:

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not dissing on trance as a form of music, and if you enjoy, have a nice one. But because of what was said in earlier posts about all dance music except salsa being pretty underground in the States, you guys just don't realise how commercial this stuff is. You spend some time in Europe and hear BBE next to Jennifer Lopez on MTV, or ATB till you want to throw your radio out the window and you will understand.

So that's why all these trance DJs are rushing to tour the States, because they're so played out in Europe. And no you won't hear Sasha play trance in Ibiza. That's less likely than hearing him play it in NY because there no one could take it.

If you want to hear trance in Ibiza go hear the king of British cheese, Judge Jules, who not surprisingly has changed his style from cheesy house to cheesy trance. And he also plays the Gatecrasher every week now because the mecca of trance can't find anyone else who will play it anymore. If Judge Jules plays a British club you can be sure it's better days are behind it.

Face it, it's dying under the weight of its popularity.

And Tiesto and Ferry Corsten? Sure they make good stuff, but when did they become underground? They make Dutch radio music.

A quote from one of the only major Dutch producer who has a serious claim to being underground:

"Sasha's inspiring. He's so popular, and he could take it easy, you know, just play Ferry Corsten records, but he's always one step ahead. He takes it all unbelievably seriously."

And yes he could probably make more money in the short term selling out like Oakenfold, but he already makes plenty of money and this way he will have more staying power and be around longer. You won't want to puke when you hear his name due to being so played out. And he probably gets more personal reward out of being on the cutting edge.

I have ultimate respect for Sasha and really give him credit for keeping it somewhat real. And Digweed, no pretensions, just tearing the roof off every time out.

JohnB

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Music is the language of souls . . .

[back2basics]

I don't want to get into the underground / main stream argument (had all this years ago)but.....

rjr I agree with you, I have just put another post in a similar thread about good music. Trance died because it is not lasting music I bought tracks 6 months ago that I don't know why I bought them now.

AvH is massive in the UK he is not underground though he is a pop star, and if you do know him do me a favor and tell him to stop ripping off disco cuts and do some real work for his money. And if anybody know Norman Cook (Fat boy slim) tell him the same.

Blueangel, I know you love trance and that's fine. But we are not dissing it we are discussing it, in 2 years come back and say that you still love trance and we will talk. But I a fairly sure you wont. I don't want this to sound like me saying the music is crap don't listen, do listen if you like it you like it. All I am saying is if I was an A&R man I wouldn't sign a new trance act because it's going to loose me money over a three year period.

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[johnb]

Blue Angel,

Come on, read my post closer. I didn't call all trance cheesy. I called what Judge Jules plays cheesy. He was playing cheesy stuff long before trance appeared and he will be playing cheesy stuff long after trance is gone. I was just making the point that it is a sign that everyone has jumped on the bandwagon that he is playing it. The biggest trance fan amongst us would have to admit that there are some pretty cheesy trance records in the world, just as there are some pretty chessy house, techno, drum and bass, etc records going around. But there are some good ones too in all categories.

And Nick Warren plays trance not so melodic in the Gatecrasher-style you guys seem to like.

I like trance, but it's still dying. Not the dirty trance, ie Timo Maas, but the melodic stuff is going fast.

JohnB

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[Nolimit]

I have to agree with JohnB here. He never said all trance was cheesy. Jules is the king of cheese though. I heard his set on the essential mix this past weekend from 'Homelands' and I couldn't believe the crap he was playing. One thing though, people adore what he plays. And they all live in the UK. So you can't sit here and say that all that trance crap is old news. Apparently it is still being played out in most of the major festivals.

You want to hear some good shit. Go out and spend some money on the 'Tyrant' cd mixed by Craig Richards & Lee Burridge. That is the funk of today. The sound of now persay. I can guarantee that is what will be played out in Ibiza this summer. Ofcourse, it depends what part of the island you're at. Stay away from the west end. ie(San Antoni)

aka Cheeseville!

The sad truth of the matter is that cheese sells and it will never die...

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[back2basics]

Blueangel,

I don't know if your new to the scene or not but 97 too me is new. And I am not questioning your love or enthusiasm for the scene either.

Trance is still played at Gatecrasher but that's it. It's in the charts but it ATB et al which is more back street boys than serious music. But this year it has disappeared it started last year in favour of the disco, filtered house. Now it's turning towards garage.

I am not going to argue what is big in the UK I know, I have been a big part of the scene over there for over ten years. I was in Ibiza when it all started, been to Goa for the fullmoon parties. I have been to every major club and most of the smaller ones that are worth it. I have ran events in the UK and plan to in Chicago. I have written articles for mixmag and know people who have and do work there. Many of my friends are the DJ's who actually carry the scene in England not the Pete Tongs,Judge Jules etc but the real scene. Believe me I know what is going on there.

Oh somebody mentioned festivals, well that's not true either. Last year Homelands, Gatecrasher, Cream & many other did festivals with the big 10,000 people tent being Melodic Trance. It's not so this year.

Nothing new has ever come from the commercial side of music.

By the way could somebody explain what progressive trance is? I have never even herd of it. I have herd of progressive house, the difference is the breakdowns and drum roles if it has it it's Progressive House (no matter what the beat structure). And by the way breakdowns and drum roles = drug music there is no other reason for them but to ride the rush.

Tell you what Blueangel, I am going to Miami music conference this year. Just incase you didn't know all the labels and DJ's go out to showcase there new songs for the season. They get to try it out on other industry people, it shapes what we are listening to for the next year. Go listen to what is being played I tell you what it wont be.

If no DJ plays Trance 6 months time you will have forgotten it.

Miami Music conference

March 25th-March 30th

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[blueangel]

back2basic:

No, I've been listening to electronica music starting with techno in the early 80's and evolving from there.

I have to disagree with you when you say that they haven't played trance this year. My bf gets live mixes performed by different DJs all over europe and I still hear progressive trance being spun at every single one of them. Last one being about two weeks ago with Matthew Harwick and Scott Bond in Sydney, Australia. They spun some wicked trance, tech-house, house, etc. etc. And the home festival that just took place . . . PVD's set was without a doubt AWESOME . . . mixture of techno, trance and house.

Progressive trance (to me) is a track that's constanly changing (progressive) into one stage from another. . like Universal Nation by Push or Columbia by PVD.

I know what the Miami Music Conference is . . I think most of us who are in this scene or on this board for that matter knows what that is.

As far as what the DJ's will be playing . . . I guess time will tell. But until then . . .as of today, trance is not dead or anywhere near it.

BlueAngel

Originally posted by back2basics:

Blueangel,

I don't know if your new to the scene or not but 97 too me is new. And I am not questioning your love or enthusiasm for the scene either.

Trance is still played at Gatecrasher but that's it. It's in the charts but it ATB et al which is more back street boys than serious music. But this year it has disappeared it started last year in favour of the disco, filtered house. Now it's turning towards garage.

I am not going to argue what is big in the UK I know, I have been a big part of the scene over there for over ten years. I was in Ibiza when it all started, been to Goa for the fullmoon parties. I have been to every major club and most of the smaller ones that are worth it. I have ran events in the UK and plan to in Chicago. I have written articles for mixmag and know people who have and do work there. Many of my friends are the DJ's who actually carry the scene in England not the Pete Tongs,Judge Jules etc but the real scene. Believe me I know what is going on there.

Oh somebody mentioned festivals, well that's not true either. Last year Homelands, Gatecrasher, Cream & many other did festivals with the big 10,000 people tent being Melodic Trance. It's not so this year.

Nothing new has ever come from the commercial side of music.

By the way could somebody explain what progressive trance is? I have never even herd of it. I have herd of progressive house, the difference is the breakdowns and drum roles if it has it it's Progressive House (no matter what the beat structure). And by the way breakdowns and drum roles = drug music there is no other reason for them but to ride the rush.

Tell you what Blueangel, I am going to Miami music conference this year. Just incase you didn't know all the labels and DJ's go out to showcase there new songs for the season. They get to try it out on other industry people, it shapes what we are listening to for the next year. Go listen to what is being played I tell you what it wont be.

If no DJ plays Trance 6 months time you will have forgotten it.

Miami Music conference

March 25th-March 30th

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Music is the language of souls . . .

[back2basics]

Seems like we are going round in circles here.

Yeah Paul Van Dyke etc. Still play it and are probably still playing it. You have to understand that these DJ's Paul Van Dyke, Taucher, Scott bond, Matt Hardwick etc mainly play Gatecrasher in the UK (just check the lineups). They do some work now in the rest of Europe, but that's it.

Name some clubs still playing "Progressive trance" that you have mix tapes from?

Ministry - used to played.

Gallery - never played.

The Tunnel - never played.

Bagleys - never played.

Trade never - never played.

Home - never played.

In fact London - never played.

Moneypennies - never played.

Cream - used to play (now house, hard house techno)

Q club - never played.

That's most of the super clubs in England covered.

It was quiet big in the north of England (where gatecrasher is), it was big on the radio but every big club in the UK has either never played it or has stopped. Gatecrasher is so popular because people travel 200 miles to here the headliners, Judge Jules, Pete Tong, Scott Bond who are top of there listing every week - please don't tell me any of these DJ's have any talent. It's full of 16-17 year olds dressed as fairies and Cyber kids with glow sticks. Gatecrasher is not about the music it's about kids tattooing the latest E emblem on there arms and holding up "Tune" cards it is the MTV of British clubs. Why o why do you all think this is the epitome of UK clubs?

Every year Paul Oakenfold said this is the "big year for trance" last year bang there it was. You couldn't move in Ibiza last year for trance, I loved it. Got home bought the vinyl, got bored end of story.

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[blueangel]

You're right, we are moving in circles. You're saying that home never played trance and I'm telling you that I have a live mix that PVD AND Sasha did at home and it most definately have trance in it. Hold on let me reconfirm that . . . listening to it as I type and YEP there it is . . . TRANCE.

As I stated before . . . perhaps end of story to you but it's not the end of story yet.

As for the fairy looking kids with tattoo and glowstick . . . well I have a tattoo and dance with glowsticks so I guess I'm one of them. =)

BlueAngel

Originally posted by back2basics:

Seems like we are going round in circles here.

Yeah Paul Van Dyke etc. Still play it and are probably still playing it. You have to understand that these DJ's Paul Van Dyke, Taucher, Scott bond, Matt Hardwick etc mainly play Gatecrasher in the UK (just check the lineups). They do some work now in the rest of Europe, but that's it.

Name some clubs still playing "Progressive trance" that you have mix tapes from?

Ministry - used to played.

Gallery - never played.

The Tunnel - never played.

Bagleys - never played.

Trade never - never played.

Home - never played.

In fact London - never played.

Moneypennies - never played.

Cream - used to play (now house, hard house techno)

Q club - never played.

That's most of the super clubs in England covered.

It was quiet big in the north of England (where gatecrasher is), it was big on the radio but every big club in the UK has either never played it or has stopped. Gatecrasher is so popular because people travel 200 miles to here the headliners, Judge Jules, Pete Tong, Scott Bond who are top of there listing every week - please don't tell me any of these DJ's have any talent. It's full of 16-17 year olds dressed as fairies and Cyber kids with glow sticks. Gatecrasher is not about the music it's about kids tattooing the latest E emblem on there arms and holding up "Tune" cards it is the MTV of British clubs. Why o why do you all think this is the epitome of UK clubs?

Every year Paul Oakenfold said this is the "big year for trance" last year bang there it was. You couldn't move in Ibiza last year for trance, I loved it. Got home bought the vinyl, got bored end of story.

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Music is the language of souls . . .

[blueangel]

Back2basic, I think maybe YOU think I'm new to this scene . . . well I'm not. I still listen to Nick Warren Global Underground 8 from '97 and STILL jump around my living room like a mad woman. I have many old tracks and albums (thanks to my god-sent bf) and find myself going back to it and still loving it more. That is exactly my point. Perhaps trance . . progressive trance . . . electronica music was phase for YOU but it isn't for a lot of us. AND there are a lot of us who are not "new" to the scene.

Also, my bf went to UK for the New Year's Eve bash at Gatecrasher and from what I hear trance is not exactly dead in the UK. It's very much alive. Every café, stores, malls, even restaurant plays them. I don't think that's dead, do you? Perhaps it has gone mainstream in UK and that's what's bothering you . . . but usually good music will go mainstream and then calm down and return to the underground again.

I've been listening to electronica music for more than two years but I'll come back in another two years . . . AND I ASSURE you that I will still be loving it. =)

BlueAngel

Originally posted by back2basics:

I don't want to get into the underground / main stream argument (had all this years ago)but.....

rjr I agree with you, I have just put another post in a similar thread about good music. Trance died because it is not lasting music I bought tracks 6 months ago that I don't know why I bought them now.

AvH is massive in the UK he is not underground though he is a pop star, and if you do know him do me a favor and tell him to stop ripping off disco cuts and do some real work for his money. And if anybody know Norman Cook (Fat boy slim) tell him the same.

Blueangel, I know you love trance and that's fine. But we are not dissing it we are discussing it, in 2 years come back and say that you still love trance and we will talk. But I a fairly sure you wont. I don't want this to sound like me saying the music is crap don't listen, do listen if you like it you like it. All I am saying is if I was an A&R man I wouldn't sign a new trance act because it's going to loose me money over a three year period.

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Music is the language of souls . . .

[johnb]

There's another difference between trance and progressive house that was left out, which is that trance has a constant repetitive sound in the background, which is normally the bassline. Progressive house on the other hand usually has a multi-note bassline, and a funkier beat. Thus I never considered what Sasha played to be real trance, only the UK rendition of it, which was sort of an add-on to house. If you want to hear the difference for yourself, get out your Gatecrasher CD or Paul Oakenfold or Nick Warren and you can hear the constant bass sound pumping in the background, whereas if you listen to Sasha or Digweed the basslines always have more than one note. It changes the feel of the track. I know many people consider Sasha GU 13 to be trance, but I think it is more a trancey form of house. Not that the distinction is all that important anyway. You should listen to whatever you like and ignore labels anyway.

JohnB

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