Ok enough is enough you fucking Unpatriotic assholes...

[PinkFloyd40]

Originally posted by vixenfoxxy

:laugh: :laugh: AAAAUUUUUGGGGHHHHHH OMG I haven't laughed that hard in a LONG time! :laugh: :laugh:

mad true quote from XPander though... let's not forget that *questions* lead to answers. As Einstein once said "we cannot solve the problems of the world by thinking on the level at which we created them."

yea i totally agree w/ you guys.. xpander hit on a great point and one which i've certainly been admant about as well.. unconditional support of our leaders and their policies does not equal partriotism..

[pookie23]

Originally posted by PFloyd40

yea i totally agree w/ you guys.. xpander hit on a great point and one which i've certainly been admant about as well.. unconditional support of our leaders and their policies does not equal partriotism..

What does consitute patriotism then?

[loch]

Originally posted by spragga25

What does consitute patriotism then?

pa·tri·ot·ism

n.

Love of and devotion to one's country.

and if i may expand on this, patriotism is also upholding the principles from which the country and its government were created, which includes, as xpander puts it, "built on criticism and refinement of forms of government past, including our own".

"unconditional support for my government" and "i will do what my government says" and "fuck the arabs, nuke the middle east" is called blind faith, fascist, and misguided anger & patriotism, respectively (to put it lightly).

actually, vixxenfoxy said it best: "It is both possible and generally positive to feel allegiance towards the United States while at the same time criticizing the government, military, whatever the group may be. What you are having a hard time with is that you are not drawing that distinction, and many Americans have that issue."

[vixenfoxxy]

Originally posted by loch

pa·tri·ot·ism

n.

Love of and devotion to one's country.

and if i may expand on this, patriotism is also upholding the principles from which the country and its government were created, which includes, as xpander puts it, "built on criticism and refinement of forms of government past, including our own".

"unconditional support for my government" and "i will do what my government says" and "fuck the arabs, nuke the middle east" is called blind faith, fascist, and misguided anger & patriotism, respectively (to put it lightly).

Word. Well said!

[milamber3]

Originally posted by clubgodraver

10. Anti-terrorism laws are aimed at preventing disasters like this to happen again. Maybe if we had stricter immigration laws these 20 hijackers would have never entered our country i nthe first place.

I agree with most of what u said, but I think that there are some crafty people that see a chance to pass bullshit laws in with the good ones. Things like the SSSCA (or whatever the letters are) are horrible and have nothing to do with terrorism yet that might be passed just because everyone is on a warpath.

[sassa]

Hey, all I'm going to say about this is if you don't like my posts,don't read them. End of story.

[Guest saleen351]

My Finacial Banking prof once told me that a Democracy is based on one little fact, and that is change. we can always change, no vote or law is set in stone.....Thats the beauty of a democracy. I'm not gonna argue some of yours points, some are good, some are not. But that is what america is, opinions and I respect that. But reread the other posts about Africa and Iraq, Its totaly BS. I got friends that have been shot at in Africa on patrol with the marines. Did i mention since it was a humanitarian operation they didn't carry guns! I got friends over in Afgan right now. my college roomate is going operation for the Ac-130 gunship in march, (pilot) Some of your posts just keep on ragging on the us for our policies...We can't help everyone on the planet, its not our job and its impossible. Where is France, UK, Italy, Russia, and the rest of the world. They only help when we say to help. For god sakes we give Egypt 8 billion a year. but none mentioned that. We sent supplies to cuba when the hurricane came threw 2 weeks ago, no ones mentioned that, we helped staring kids in somaolia, no one said any thing about that...For all the good that we do in the world show some fucking respect..My ancestors came from Italy and none will go back there ever! They left under Musilini and became full blooded americas the day the boat pulled into harbor! Did you ppl watch 60 minutes last night. Kuwait hates us now, even though we saved their asses 10 years ago. They are pushing for a islamic fundamental state....but you didn't mention that either.....LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT!

[Guest saleen351]

Here is an article, I guess Iraq ain't dangerous and we should not have bombed them...We had no good reason....

foxnews

GENEVA — The United States identified Iraq and five other countries Monday as states that are developing germ warfare programs but refused to say whether any may have assisted Usama bin Laden in his quest for biological weapons.

John R. Bolton, undersecretary of state for arms control, said the existence of Iraq's program is "beyond dispute" and that the United States strongly suspects North Korea, Libya, Syria, Iran and Sudan of developing programs.

"The United States strongly suspects that Iraq has taken advantage of three years of no U.N. inspections to improve all phases of its offensive biological weapons program," Bolton said. "The existence of Iraq's program is beyond dispute."

Condoleezza Rice, President Bush's national security adviser, on Sunday left open the possibility that Iraq could become a target in Bush's war on terrorism.

"We do not need the events of September 11 to tell us that (Saddam Hussein) is a very dangerous man who is a threat to his own people, a threat to the region and a threat to us because he is determined to acquire weapons of mass destruction," she said.

Bolton also told the 144 nations that have signed the 1972 Biological Weapons Convention that the United States finds North Korea's biological weapons program "extremely disturbing."

He said the United States believed North Korea had a dedicated, national-level effort to achieve a biological weapons capability and that it has "developed and produced, and may have weaponized" biological agents.

He also said the United States was "quite concerned" about Iran, Libya, Syria and Sudan, all of which appeared to have biological weapons programs.

"There are other states I could have named which the United States will be contacting privately concerning our belief that they are pursuing an offensive biological weapons program," he said.

Bolton said the United States knows "that Usama bin Laden considers obtaining weapons of mass destruction to be a sacred duty" and wants to use them against the United States."

"We are concerned that he could have been trying to acquire a rudimentary biological weapons capability, possibly with support from a state."

But he said the United States was "not prepared to comment whether rogue states may have assisted" bin Laden in the plan.

Ali Asghar Soltanieh, the Iranian ambassador to the conference, said the allegation that his country was developing biological weapons was "unjustified and baseless."

The United States, which has rejected a legally binding inspection plan under the treaty, said it would rather set up a mechanism under which the U.N. secretary-general would order inspections when violations are suspected.

Other countries, including Japan, said the binding commitment is necessary if the treaty is to be effective.

Belgian Ambassador Jean Lint, speaking for the European Union, said the 15-nation bloc also supports the inclusion of "investigation measures" under the treaty.

U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan said in a message to the conference that it faced a clear challenge to deal with the threat of biological weapons.

"The horrific attacks on Sept. 11 could have been far worse if weapons of mass destruction had been used," Annan said. "In recent weeks, the world has seen the use of biological agents to create chaos and terror violating the international norm."

American officials shocked other countries last July by rejecting more than six years of negotiations on enforcement measures of the 1972 treaty, arguing they were ineffective.

Bolton was speaking at the start of a three-week meeting in Geneva planned as a review of the agreement. He was presenting to other countries the new U.S. approach since the United States has come under an anthrax attack.

The emergence of anthrax-tainted letters in the United States in the weeks following the Sept. 11 terrorist attack has thrust the issue of biological warfare into the spotlight.

"Since Sept. 11, America and others have been confronted by the evils these weapons can inflict," said a statement by President Bush earlier this month.

"This threat is real and extremely dangerous," said Bush. "Rogue states and terrorists possess these weapons and are willing to use them."

Bush demanded that all 144 countries that have signed the treaty enact "strict national criminal legislation" against violations of the treaty and apply strict extradition requirements.

Under the proposed protocol, there would be a limited number of inspections of biotech industries and defense facilities.

The United States said the enforcement proposal would be ineffective in stopping countries from developing biological weapons while it would pose risks to U.S. national security and to commercial secrets of the U.S. biotech industry.

The treaty drafters omitted an enforcement mechanism when they negotiated the accord during the Cold War, in part because no one seriously thought anyone would try to use such weapons.

[bigpoppanils]

saleen, thank you for giving a well supported opinion and avoiding personal attacks

and i truly mean that, not being scarcastic this time

its also not suprising that libya, iran, and north korea have biological weapons programs

they seem to go hand in hand with nuclear capability

it is suprising that syria and sudan have them, especially when they are near total financial collapse

there was an interesting article in maxim recently that traced the money that was raised from the Live aid concert 15 years ago....most of the funds were earmarked for expanding eithiopia's military.....

[Kermzy]

Originally posted by msoprano13

i think the paper said it the other way around and gore was the won who won the election....and you cant say gore would have done this or that casue he doesnt have the chance to do anything

I think your WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Gore lost, fair & square. Get over it!

[Xpander]

Originally posted by saleen351

My Finacial Banking prof once told me that a Democracy is based on one little fact, and that is change. we can always change, no vote or law is set in stone.....Thats the beauty of a democracy. I'm not gonna argue some of yours points, some are good, some are not. But that is what america is, opinions and I respect that. But reread the other posts about Africa and Iraq, Its totaly BS. I got friends that have been shot at in Africa on patrol with the marines. Did i mention since it was a humanitarian operation they didn't carry guns! I got friends over in Afgan right now. my college roomate is going operation for the Ac-130 gunship in march, (pilot) Some of your posts just keep on ragging on the us for our policies...We can't help everyone on the planet, its not our job and its impossible. Where is France, UK, Italy, Russia, and the rest of the world. They only help when we say to help. For god sakes we give Egypt 8 billion a year. but none mentioned that. We sent supplies to cuba when the hurricane came threw 2 weeks ago, no ones mentioned that, we helped staring kids in somaolia, no one said any thing about that...For all the good that we do in the world show some fucking respect..My ancestors came from Italy and none will go back there ever! They left under Musilini and became full blooded americas the day the boat pulled into harbor! Did you ppl watch 60 minutes last night. Kuwait hates us now, even though we saved their asses 10 years ago. They are pushing for a islamic fundamental state....but you didn't mention that either.....LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT!

We can't help everyone on the planet....

Yup, that's obvious to everyone here. Problem is, we have our presence where we're not wanted. Time and time again, we've had commercial and military presence in other countries to protect "US interests".

You're damn right that helping everyone isn't our job. In fact, I'd hate to say it, but the US shouldn't run around and act like everyone's savior. I posted before that the US shouldn't interfere in so many regions around the world and I still think that there's some merit in that.

I'm sorry that your friends got shot. I'm sorry your roommate has to be overseas. But keep in mind why they're there in the first place. No one blamed the soldiers for their presence in other countries. But you still have to reconsider our foreign policy and the reason why your friends have to be out there rather than back home.

With the things in regards to the Middle East......I still don't think we should be so involved there. There's ALOT of people out there that's against the bombing, ALOT of people, Saleen. Don't think that the anti-bombing attitudes only emerge from countries like Kuwait or in the Middle East...

[clubgodraver]

well there is bombing, or there is...?? how else do we win a war against terrorism...beg them to surrender?? I am seriously curious, and I am not trying to be a smart ass or anything? and i belive that our offensive tactics are the only way to prevent another act liek this from happening in the short run. they can't launch an attack on us because their infrastructure is weakened by our campaign there

[Guest saleen351]

I can say this:

WE fucked up with Sadam and other countries

We took out hilter , problem solved, now germany is a strong country and is vital to the world econ

we took out japan, now they vowed never to attack any one again and now they are the second largest econ and contribute in a positive way in the world

One day sadam and castro will be gone and we will some day embrace those countries just like we embrace russia now.

[sassa]

Originally posted by saleen351

My Finacial Banking prof once told me that a Democracy is based on one little fact, and that is change. we can always change, no vote or law is set in stone.....Thats the beauty of a democracy. I'm not gonna argue some of yours points, some are good, some are not. But that is what america is, opinions and I respect that. But reread the other posts about Africa and Iraq, Its totaly BS. I got friends that have been shot at in Africa on patrol with the marines. Did i mention since it was a humanitarian operation they didn't carry guns! I got friends over in Afgan right now. my college roomate is going operation for the Ac-130 gunship in march, (pilot) Some of your posts just keep on ragging on the us for our policies...We can't help everyone on the planet, its not our job and its impossible. Where is France, UK, Italy, Russia, and the rest of the world. They only help when we say to help. For god sakes we give Egypt 8 billion a year. but none mentioned that. We sent supplies to cuba when the hurricane came threw 2 weeks ago, no ones mentioned that, we helped staring kids in somaolia, no one said any thing about that...For all the good that we do in the world show some fucking respect..My ancestors came from Italy and none will go back there ever! They left under Musilini and became full blooded americas the day the boat pulled into harbor! Did you ppl watch 60 minutes last night. Kuwait hates us now, even though we saved their asses 10 years ago. They are pushing for a islamic fundamental state....but you didn't mention that either.....LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT!

I don't know where you're getting your facts from, but Egypt only recieves, if anything, around 2 billion dollars a year from the States. Israel, on the other hand, recieves, 5 billion. Quite a contrast, when other countries desperately needs the money more than Israel does, which has a thriving economy of its own and doesn't really need the money except for weapons.

[bigpoppanils]

over here the support for the campaign in afghanistan is waning, and there have been plenty anti-war protests as well

there is also a lot of worry here that the coakition governemnt will fail miserably, as the northern alliance has begun to demand that british troops leave the country

[siphor]

I think this Bullshiet needs to be moved to the Drama section!

[clubgodraver]

Originally posted by bigpoppanils

over here the support for the campaign in afghanistan is waning, and there have been plenty anti-war protests as well

there is also a lot of worry here that the coakition governemnt will fail miserably, as the northern alliance has begun to demand that british troops leave the country

those protestors are in the minority..M-I-N-O-R-I-T-Y...we have people protesting abortion...and may i add they are sane and rational people...they are pro-life but believe it is ok to go bomb an abortion clinic, which isin direct opposition to their pro-life slogan...people hugging trees...people living in trees:laugh: and yes i did say people living in trees, because they don't want them to be cut down. there are always small radical opposition forces to any action, but it does not mean that we are not whole-heartedly behind this campaign...i guarantee that more than 90% of al americans are behind this campaign.