Bush Decides To Break The Bolistic Missile Treaty With Russia!!!!!

[rollo]

i was repyling to YOU...YOU quoted me before Mr. Raver

[kramadas]

Originally posted by rollo

i was repyling to YOU...YOU quoted me before Mr. Raver

Did I call you a blind, right wing Republican in my post to you?

Me calling Igloo as such goes back to other posts.

[rollo]

no you didnt ..I simply commented on your reply..

[igloo]

Originally posted by raver_mania

Did I call you a blind, right wing Republican in my post to you?

Me calling Igloo as such goes back to other posts.

Don't forget calling me a fascist and Pat Buchanan my Berkley inspired Woodstock wannabe friend...lol

[rollo]

my fault for jumping ahead

*walking away with head down*

[kramadas]

Originally posted by igloo

Don't forget calling me a fascist and Pat Buchanan my Berkley inspired Woodstock wannabe friend...lol

Oh yea, that, and close-minded! lol

I might come across as bleeing heart, complete leftist liberal sometimes, but thats to balance some of the far right posts on the board. I do lean on the liberal side a lot, but am practical. And I don't blindly believe everything I read and see (that includes stuff on CNN AND stuff like that article regarding oil pipe-lines and the Taliban). But I don't disbelieve either till I see solid proof!

If its something that I'm not aware of, anything is possible!

[siceone]

Originally posted by igloo

Ah..once again, another member of the Imbecile Brigade speaks up- "Bush is a moron"....brilliance

I will grant you that as of today, the missle threat to our shores is minimal, but what about tomorrow?.....I don't think anyone ever imagined planes being flown into buildings either, so a hostile state developing the ability to deliver an ICBM to the US is not far-fetched (and is actually coming closer to reality in some states)

This is a complex issue, with compelling arguements either way, but to claim this decision was made based on stupidity by a moron is completely ridiculous and unintelligible...you don;t like Bush- that is fine- but putting aside party lines and differing ideologies, the administration and staff is probably the most experienced and skilled team ever put together- and is something that must be factored in here, and given the benefit of the doubt, as opposed to the continual cynicism demonstrated here

The better area of discussion is a more focused attention on nuclear proliferation, and a global agreement with a more modern control system....IMO, the real and more current danger is here

If you really belive that bush is not a moron, all I have to say is look at his cabinet, his administration and staff are half of his fathers and the other half are people that got him elected. This man that is our president makes decisions based on what these men tell him I have not heard once that he made his own decision against the wishes of his cabinet. He is a puppet and he has clearly demonstrated this fact time after time by trying to appease the right, e.g the tax break to stimulate the economy, social security. Instead of trying to fix the problems here at home he is giving dollar after dollar to these cold war relics to futher endanger our country by hightening the tension in the world.... lets face facts some people want to de-stabilize this country now that we have taken action lets find out why and try and fix it. Instead of smacking the world in the face with an ever growing military penis. We all know from previous test the missle defense system Doesn't work that system is over 5 years old probably more since we dont actually know when it was developed. why not spend the money, the billions upon billions of dollars of dollars, on R&D to find something that does work or better yet spend it on tryign to find a way to make all of our lives easier so we can pass the benefits around world, and when people around the world have the same opportunities we do maybe they will stop spending so much time hating us. and concentrate on thier portfilios or something like that. Trust me You are the one being cynical the rest of us are being real..

[nitro449]

I agree with Rollo and everything he says...The worry isn't Russia or China, it's the fucking small rogue nations that are getting nuclear missles. North korea, Iraq, Samalia, Sudan would all love to nuke us. The bottom line is that we as a country have to defend our borders, and if people have a problem with america defending herself then fuck off and move to canada.

[msoprano]

Originally posted by nitro449

I agree with Rollo and everything he says...The worry isn't Russia or China, it's the fucking small rogue nations that are getting nuclear missles. North korea, Iraq, Samalia, Sudan would all love to nuke us. The bottom line is that we as a country have to defend our borders, and if people have a problem with america defending herself then fuck off and move to canada.

here goes anonther one that cant speak logically and with facts instead you reply with this nonsense.....

go search cnn and find the link about north korea buiulding up its arms becasue it fears that the united states is going to invade them.....i said it once and ill say it again the arms race of the 21st century is on....stop watching tv and do some real research......i think everyone on this thread besides rollo and igloo have actual basis for what they are speaking about...

[bigpoppanils]

Originally posted by nitro449

I agree with Rollo and everything he says...The worry isn't Russia or China, it's the fucking small rogue nations that are getting nuclear missles. North korea, Iraq, Samalia, Sudan would all love to nuke us. The bottom line is that we as a country have to defend our borders, and if people have a problem with america defending herself then fuck off and move to canada.

if any of these piece of shit nations had icbm's i think our satellites would have picked them up by now:rolleyes:

they are not easy to hide (they are huge motherfuckers!)

and also keep in mind that any nation that dares to even try to attack the US will be leveled to the ground, a la afghanistan style

i dont have a problem with trying to defend ourselves....i just think that the satellite missile defense system is a waste of time and money and bush is fucking up our relations with other nations by wrecking the treaty

[rollo]

here goes anonther one that cant speak logically and with facts instead you reply with this nonsense.....

first of all how was that nonsense?? it makes perfect sense

"Today I am giving formal notice to Russia that the United States of America is withdrawing from this almost 30-year-old treaty," Bush said in the White House Rose Garden. "I have concluded the ABM treaty hinders our government's ability to develop ways to protect our people from future terrorist or rogue state missile attacks."

The last line says it all.

[rollo]

and to the people who say--"this wont defend us from briefcase nukes"..your right it wont, but this is just ONE of the steps the admin. has and is taking to protect us.

[nycmuzik]

Originally posted by nitro449

I agree with Rollo and everything he says...The worry isn't Russia or China, it's the fucking small rogue nations that are getting nuclear missles. North korea, Iraq, Samalia, Sudan would all love to nuke us. The bottom line is that we as a country have to defend our borders, and if people have a problem with america defending herself then fuck off and move to canada.

Somalia cant even feed its own people let alone get a nuclear missle.

And how exactly would have the missle defense system prevented Sept. 11. The answer is it couldnt. The threat to the country in the near future isnt going to come from a nuclear missle launched by some rogue country. Theres a much bigger chance that a "dirty bomb" or even one of the nuclear suitcases coul be set off in the country. It would be much wiser to spend that money on intelligence and securing our borders so that the terrorists dont get into the country. Lets remember that one of these tests costs $100 million. I wonder if certain contributors to Bush's presidential campain wont be given the contracts for this system.

Also, the missle defense system isnt as good as it seems. It has failed numerous tests, the latest being several days ago when the missle propulsion system failed 30 seconds into flight. So it hasnt even been proved that it will work.

And rollo, you are right about Clinton when it comes to the military. That was the one thing that pissed me off about him. He didnt handle the military properly. Mogadishu, Somalia October 3,1993 is a good example of that. I like Bush when it comes to that but I strongly disagree with his foreign policy.

--US pulls out of the Kyoto Protocol. Lets just deny the fact that the Greenhouse Effect doesnt exist. I mean 50 degree temperatures in December are quit normal.

--The US has rejected legislation by the UN to allow weapons inspectors into its member countries to check chemical and biological weapons arsenal. The reason the US pulled out of this was because it was going to be a threat to national security. But then we demand that Iraq let the inspectors into the country so they can be checked.

[nycmuzik]

Originally posted by rollo

and to the people who say--"this wont defend us from briefcase nukes"..your right it wont, but this is just ONE of the steps the admin. has and is taking to protect us.

I saw this after my post above this one. But once again the missle defense system is going to draw away money from resources that could be used to prevent something like that. For example, intelligence and border security.......

[kramadas]

Originally posted by rollo

and to the people who say--"this wont defend us from briefcase nukes"..your right it wont, but this is just ONE of the steps the admin. has and is taking to protect us.

Sorry dude, thats not gonna fly! A rogue nation developing long range missiles can be spotted with relative ease (satellite technology) and the way the Bush admin is going, you can bet your ass it'll get bombed back to the fuckin Stone Age before they even get a chance to develop a working prototype!

Bush is trying to use the Sept 11 attacks to justify developing a missile defense syste - that is such utter BS!

[rollo]

nycmuzik..you make very valid points in your post but,i have full faith that there will be money well spent in those other important areas also....also nobody knows where a future threat might come from, so why not use every resource possible to protect us.

[rollo]

and its not Somalia the actual country we have to worry about its the terrorists who network inside of it.

[kramadas]

Originally posted by nycmuzik2000

--The US has rejected legislation by the UN to allow weapons inspectors into its member countries to check chemical and biological weapons arsenal. The reason the US pulled out of this was because it was going to be a threat to national security. But then we demand that Iraq let the inspectors into the country so they can be checked.

Basically its saying, we can do it, but you can't. Whats wrong in letting UN weapons inspectors in, if we're asking the same of Iraq (and starving millions of ppl in the process). ANd don't give me the BS about Hussein using the money for his own uses - I've heard this so much but have seen very little to no evidence! Granted, it *probably* is true, but more and more it seems fueled by propaganda.

On a different note (I just found this out recently, so I'm bringing it back up) why did the US veto several attempts by the UN to allow independent monitors into Israel/Palestine? Thats a real question...

[bigpoppanils]

Originally posted by rollo

and its not Somalia the actual country we have to worry about its the terrorists who network inside of it.

but how could a terrorist get its hands on an icbm, if one existed in somalia

once again i'm sure our satellites would notice an icbm being moved around the sahara

[nycmuzik]

Originally posted by raver_mania

Basically its saying, we can do it, but you can't. Whats wrong in letting UN weapons inspectors in, if we're asking the same of Iraq (and starving millions of ppl in the process). ANd don't give me the BS about Hussein using the money for his own uses - I've heard this so much but have seen very little to no evidence! Granted, it *probably* is true, but more and more it seems fueled by propaganda.

Well if you read what I said before that, you would see that I also think this is a bullshit policy. I do believe that Iraq has biological and chemical weapons but if the US wants them to be subjected to UN inspections then it should do the same. Saying no is not going to solve any problem.............

[nycmuzik]

Originally posted by rollo

and its not Somalia the actual country we have to worry about its the terrorists who network inside of it.

True......but I doubt that the terrorist networks that are present in that country have nuclear weapons. The US probably has very good intelligence in that country because of what happened there in 1993. Therefore they would most likely now as soon as one of these groups got hold of a nuke. I also believe that Somalia might be next up in the war on terrorism. It would be alot easier to rid the country of terrorists because they are not being harbored by a local gov't. Most of Somalia is controlled by warlords that would not put up too stiff of an opposition to American forces.

[kandekyd18]

Ummm...ok.

I agree with Bush's withdrawal from the 1972 ABM Treaty. It is his duty as President to provide a sufficient homeland defense and in doing so, he must allocate some resources to missile defense. The US cannot ignore this threat just because at this moment it is faced with a different one. The only reason the US missile defense tests have failed is because Democrats in the Senate have consistently worked to stop the funding necessary for the technology needed to execute successfully the program. The only reason why they do this is because they believe that the US should spend its money elsewhere and under the NMD Act of 1999(which Congress passed mandating the creation of a missile defense), they continually have stopped the missile defense program because of a clause inserted into it stating that the missile defense shield will not be administered if it is not believed to be "technologically feasible." In order for a program to be feasible, it must receive funding! The US needs a balanced national security policy that addresses all threats to American lives. America has no defenses against missile attack, and this "Cold War" aggreement not only delays progress for a system, but also undermines our national security. Terrorist groups also have the ability to purchase missiles, if that is what you're wondering. I am sure that a well-funded and organized terrorist group, especially those sponsored by a nation, have the means to acquire and launch a missile - if necessary. The ABM treaty is outdated, but not only that, it was written under the notions that nations value human life and would never launch nuclear weapons if they need to retaliate. However, the events of 9/11 can only magnify the inhumanity of certain people who do not value human life. Who's to say they won't pursue such an attack?

Now, there is a larger threat looming from several rogue states, rather than the terrorists, and that must be responded to. Countries like North Korea and Iran pose the greatest threat to the US. As for the so-called "arms race" that will begin - doubtful and irrelevant. The proposed missile shield is not designed to deter any missiles launched from a large country like Russia or China. Their governments know perfectly well that a miniscule system, like the one proposed, could not successfully deflect a large-scale missile attack. Sleptics have particularly warned of a arms race, but if you actually look at history, China - for example - has been enlarging its nuclear stockpile for over 2 decades now. Currently, they still have a relatively small arsenal, but shield or no shield, they will still continue to construct nuclear weapons.

Final point - the US cannot afford simply to not address both the missile threat and terrorism. Do we have to wait until a missile is launched into one of our cities before we decide to build an effective missile defense? I would certainly hope not.

[msoprano]

Originally posted by kandekyd18

. Do we have to wait until a missile is launched into one of our cities before we decide to build an effective missile defense? I would certainly hope not.

yo make very good valid points in what you say...the reason why i only quoted this piece is if a missile is launched into our country it will indeed be the end of the world...once one goes they all go....and i hate to say it but thats the world we live in...........

[nycmuzik]

Originally posted by msoprano13

yo make very good valid points in what you say...the reason why i only quoted this piece is if a missile is launched into our country it will indeed be the end of the world...once one goes they all go....and i hate to say it but thats the world we live in...........

Exactly......the missle defense system cannot possibly stop every missle that is launched at us. Once that first missle gets past the system, then its pretty much over. We're going to launch ours, they're going to launch theirs.........its gonna keep going on until everyone is dead.

[perfecto25]

regardless of how dumb or inept you think bush is, the fact remains that there is a very real threat of a rogue state missile delivery. relying on our intelligence to detect or have an early warning is rather foolish and unreliable, just look at the intelligence gap during the India-Pakistan nuke tests, or the lack of intelligence about 9/11 attack. the fact is, Iraq and Iran have purchased nuclear fission grade material from French and Russian companies, and have built nuclear reactors. the Osirak reactor in Iraq was destroyed by a daring Israeli air raid in 1982. they have since built others. this threat while seemingly benign at the moment is actually quiet real. to rely on our intelligence is only a part of an answer. the missile defense will work eventually after enough research and development time.