Interesting article (attn: Sassa, msoprano13, etc...)

[kramadas]

Interesting article in the Guardian regarding civilian casualties in Afghanistan.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanistan/story/0,1284,622000,00.html

[msoprano]

yo great article bro....see thats what i was talking about in one of my last posts about the united states gov't being the most violent gov't in the past hundred years and no other gov't has accounted for more deaths and destruction around the world then this one....the bombin campaign was an act of revenge and nothing else....those people have nothing to do with what the talibon did just as we here have no say in where and what the govt decides to bomb or blow up...the war against terrorism cannot be won....yea big deal the talibon is over thrown..guess what that is not the terrorist network...i must reiterate the fact that you cannot defeat somone who is willing to die for there cause...all these bombings and destruction...i dont feel a damn bit safer cause whose gonna stop the guy around the block from walking into the mall i shop at with a bomb strapped to his body?

the answer nobody....

[kramadas]

Thats why I keep emphasizing that the DISEASE (ie, the WHY) must be looked at without just curing the SYMPTOMS.

[Xpander]

Originally posted by raver_mania

Interesting article in the Guardian regarding civilian casualties in Afghanistan.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanistan/story/0,1284,622000,00.html

sigh.....nothing much to say....

[nycmuzik]

That shit aint right.....Its always innocent people that pay the price for the actions of their governments.

[sassa]

Are we as humanity ever going to finally put away our violent ways and make peace with one another,learn not to harm each other,and just lives our lives as we please too much to ask?I honestly believe this world will self-destruct itself one day if the number of corrupt governments and greedy selfish,money-grubbing lowlives continue to assume those positions in the government,we are never going to see a better world...

Despite this,this world has so much wondrous beauty that it tears me up sometimes...I guess it's a balance of the negative and positive in this world, but why does the bad have to affect so many innocent,normal,everyday people like me and all of you.It's just insane...we can do it if we wanted to...but what is really stopping us?

[boa_boy]

good article, civilian casualties are if u remember the gulf war "collateral damages"

[nycmuzik]

Originally posted by sassa

Are we as humanity ever going to finally put away our violent ways and make peace with one another,learn not to harm each other,and just lives our lives as we please too much to ask?I honestly believe this world will self-destruct itself one day if the number of corrupt governments and greedy selfish,money-grubbing lowlives continue to assume those positions in the government,we are never going to see a better world...

Despite this,this world has so much wondrous beauty that it tears me up sometimes...I guess it's a balance of the negative and positive in this world, but why does the bad have to affect so many innocent,normal,everyday people like me and all of you.It's just insane...we can do it if we wanted to...but what is really stopping us?

So true.....But the answer is unfortunetly no. As long as money dominates our lives, wars will continue to rage on.........

[laraver]

Originally posted by msoprano13

yo great article bro....see thats what i was talking about in one of my last posts about the united states gov't being the most violent gov't in the past hundred years and no other gov't has accounted for more deaths and destruction around the world then this one....

How can you sit there and really feel that this statement is correct?

Your facts are in error. In the last 100 years both the Nazis and Japanese Imperial government accounted for far more deaths than anybody else, except for maybe what Stalin did in his purges of communist Russia.

Get your facts straight.

It's a shame Afghan civilians died, but where does your loyalty lay? Have you so quickly forgotten about about the thousands of innocent people who died in the WTC? They don't count for anything do they?

We should just continue to let exist a situation that was essentially a university for terrorists? What do you think Osama was doing, turning out choir boys?

Wake-up! Bringing and end to the Taliban and Al-Qaeda is absolutely necessary. At least the Afghans will have their country back and be able to start rebuilding.

[wallflour]

I wonder how many civilian casualties the Taliban inflicted on their own people in their 5 years of rule...

or better yet, add to that the 2 years that they fought to take over power from (what became) the Northern Alliance

[kramadas]

Originally posted by wallflour

I wonder how many civilian casualties the Taliban inflicted on their own people in their 5 years of rule...

or better yet, add to that the 2 years that they fought to take over power from (what became) the Northern Alliance

I can turn that question right around...how many ppl died in the US due to crime in the last 5 years?

No-one really shouts about casualties and tragedies until a force from another country inflicts it (be it Al Queda or the USA).

[a_jenkins]

Originally posted by nycmuzik2000

That shit aint right.....Its always innocent people that pay the price for the actions of their governments.

If the bombs hadn't taken these people out, the Taliban probably would have killed them eventually anyway. It is truly a shame if thousands of civilians were killed, but at least now the MILLIONS of other Afghans have some hope of a better life.

[tribal]

guys, i dont understand how you can just sit there and read that article without the grain of salt? the Guardian is a well known leftist publication, not to say that leftist opinions are wrong or immoral, its just that they will obviously have biased views on any american actions. do you really think the american govt is the most violent govt of 20th century? lets dissect this, shall we?

Govts that just may be worse than US govt?

------

Pol Pot regime (8 million dead)

Algerian govt (Berber clashes)

Syrian govt (Hama massacre)

Iraqi govt (should i even start?)

Chinese govt (massive civil rights violations, Tianamen is a tiny event)

Argentinian govt (Pinoche anyone?)

German govt (WW2 - 30 mil dead)

the list goes on

furthermore, the article mentions the 'slaughter' of the Mazar prisoners? did any one actually bother to find out the events in that prison camp? for anyone interested, it was a massive armed uprising against NA + US forces, by ALqaeda and taliban soldiers, not civilians, the very same soldiers that have been murdering afghanis for the past 7 years.

in any wars, the civilian deaths are always tragic, that is sadly a fact of war. we cannot simply sit here and critisize, ostracize and rant on US actions without considering their implications. Without those US bombs, afghan children would still be starving right now, taliban would still be shooting women in stadiums, and many many more people than that callously infalted figure of 3767 would die within a month under the taliban govt. is it a tragedy that those people died? absolutely, war is not a happy story. did those deaths bring about a change? well, i dont see mulla omar beating women anymore, do you?

guys, we all want a perfect world with no wars and no civilian casualties, but im speaking from a realist point of view. those deaths were not intentional, and im sure if any of you ever talked to US military servicemen you would find that most of them are of the highest moral integrity. ive been in the USAF ROTC for 3 years, and ive ment many outstanding people that are probably serving over there right now, and i guarantee you that none of them would ever want to see more death than that country already had. again, whats do u think is better for afghanis, those innocent deaths by stray bombs, and millions living a hopefully better life, or a continuation of taliban, torture and social decay? 2 sides to every story.

[kramadas]

Originally posted by tribal

guys, i dont understand how you can just sit there and read that article without the grain of salt? the Guardian is a well known leftist publication, not to say that leftist opinions are wrong or immoral, its just that they will obviously have biased views on any american actions. do you really think the american govt is the most violent govt of 20th century? lets dissect this, shall we?

Govts that just may be worse than US govt?

------

Pol Pot regime (8 million dead)

Algerian govt (Berber clashes)

Syrian govt (Hama massacre)

Iraqi govt (should i even start?)

Chinese govt (massive civil rights violations, Tianamen is a tiny event)

Argentinian govt (Pinoche anyone?)

German govt (WW2 - 30 mil dead)

the list goes on

furthermore, the article mentions the 'slaughter' of the Mazar prisoners? did any one actually bother to find out the events in that prison camp? for anyone interested, it was a massive armed uprising against NA + US forces, by ALqaeda and taliban soldiers, not civilians, the very same soldiers that have been murdering afghanis for the past 7 years.

in any wars, the civilian deaths are always tragic, that is sadly a fact of war. we cannot simply sit here and critisize, ostracize and rant on US actions without considering their implications. Without those US bombs, afghan children would still be starving right now, taliban would still be shooting women in stadiums, and many many more people than that callously infalted figure of 3767 would die within a month under the taliban govt. is it a tragedy that those people died? absolutely, war is not a happy story. did those deaths bring about a change? well, i dont see mulla omar beating women anymore, do you?

guys, we all want a perfect world with no wars and no civilian casualties, but im speaking from a realist point of view. those deaths were not intentional, and im sure if any of you ever talked to US military servicemen you would find that most of them are of the highest moral integrity. ive been in the USAF ROTC for 3 years, and ive ment many outstanding people that are probably serving over there right now, and i guarantee you that none of them would ever want to see more death than that country already had. again, whats do u think is better for afghanis, those innocent deaths by stray bombs, and millions living a hopefully better life, or a continuation of taliban, torture and social decay? 2 sides to every story.

Very good points (except the one about the Guardian...I think its more unbiased than CNN ).

I guess what really gets me is that, the world over, everyone is grieving for all the 3000+ lives lost in the WTC tragedy, but there has been very little mention (or grieving) for the innocent Afghanis killed in this war. That, in my mind, is putting more value to an American life than an Afghani's.

Truth be said...it can almost be said that the 3000 killed in the WTC died to prevent more American deaths -coz it prompted this war...without which, the Al Queda might have developed nukes, and detonated them, thus killing many thousands more than at the WTC.

There definitely are two sides to every coin!

[laraver]

Tribal - Good and valid points.

In dealing with terrorists I think the Syrian government got it right. What was done at Hama has stopped all activity by terrorists in that country.

If that is what it takes to stop people like these, then I am all for it.

A quote from the Phantom Menace applies here when it comes to terrorists: "Wipe them out, all of them"

One of the basic functions of any government is to provide for the safe and secure daily life of it's citizens. The nations of the world cannot permit the seed of terrorism to grow and spread. In Afghanistan under the Taliban that seed has grown into a terrible vine that threatens to choke the world and drag it down into chaos. It is a situation that could not be permitted to continue.

The equation was a few thousand deaths now or untold millions if the terrorists were to be able to continue to grow and aquire nuclear and other sophisticated weapons.

It is that simple.

[tribal]

yo raver, i totally agree with you on the CNN thing. CNN is an abomination. i yearn for BBC or at least SKY, for a better news coverage. i absolutely HATE the CNN coverage, and all their patriotic bullshit. i love this country with all my heart, but i dont need some jackass on the screen yelping out stories about patriotic santas in idaho, while the real news never makes it to the screen. it insults my intelligence. i also agree that the media does put more emphasis on american deaths, and that is an unfortunate by product of international balance of power. anyway thats a big topic in itself. CNN should be banned from transmission though, its a disgrace.

ps - yo sassa, when are you gonna post your pic

[tribal]

hey laraver, i dont mean to insult you, but u have a very simplified view of historical events. do you have any idea as to what happened in Hama? if you are interested, read a very interesting book by T.Friedman called 'From Beirut to Jerusalem'.

The Hama massacre was not what i would call an ideal solution. Hafez Assad killed off Syria's 4th largest city, completely wiped out every inhabitant within the city limits, including thousands of women and children, who were in no way connected to the Muslim Brotherhood, a faction that was seen as a political threat to the Assad regime. Would you agree that by S.Hussein gas poisoning the Kurdish population, because he called them 'terrorists' would also be the ideal solution? please think this matter over. and in no way do i agree that a quote from the 'phantom menace' would apply here.

on the lighter side, one quote does come to mind - "i joined the army, to see exotic places, meet interesting and foreign people, then kill them" - Full Metal Jacket

[wallflour]

Originally posted by raver_mania

I can turn that question right around...how many ppl died in the US due to crime in the last 5 years?

But:

1. the US has not been in a civil war during that time (assuming you want to believe that the Afghans are "civil")

2. the US govt hasn't been doing things like going into people's houses and killing mothers in front of their children (who were featured in "Beneath the Veil", the documentary shown on CNN)

http://www.hrw.org/worldreport99/asia/afghanistan.html

Also, given that that the US population is over 10 times greater than that of Afghanistan, the number of people killed by crimes (5% according to http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/ ) is probably lower percentage-wise than the number of Afghans that the Taliban killed

And here's another article I've found

http://www.rc3.org/cgi-bin/less.pl?arg=3414

[kramadas]

Originally posted by wallflour

But:

1. the US has not been in a civil war during that time (assuming you want to believe that the Afghans are "civil")

2. the US govt hasn't been doing things like going into people's houses and killing mothers in front of their children (who were featured in "Beneath the Veil", the documentary shown on CNN)

http://www.hrw.org/worldreport99/asia/afghanistan.html

Also, given that that the US population is over 10 times greater than that of Afghanistan, the number of people killed by crimes (5% according to http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/ ) is probably lower percentage-wise than the number of Afghans that the Taliban killed

And here's another article I've found

http://www.rc3.org/cgi-bin/less.pl?arg=3414

Thats also a great article! Practically speaking, I agree, this campaign was necessary, and in the long run will benefit everyone (hopefully). However, I guess, like the autho in the rc3 article, I'm trying to get past the civilian casualties to see the war more objectively.

My biggest issue is with the ppl who overlook, or completely ignore the civilian casualties on the Afghan side. War is ugly, and sometimes is necessary, but its good for ppl to see and understand ALL the consequences of it.

Have you guys ever been on the CNN messageboards (the War on Terrorism one)...some of the posts there are just utterly DISGUSTING!!

[breakbeatz2]

i can NEVER understand how people here LOVE to turn on their freakin country. "most violent govt in past 100 years??"""" are you stupid or something? like raver said, what about Germany, China, Soviet Union, Japan, Afghanistan, etc, etc.

the civilian casualties are regretful, and definitely not sometihn that anybody could have wanted, but it is a bi-product of something good, which is taking out the Taliban and destroying a training-ground for terorists.

all of you SAY that we should get to the ROOT of the problem, blah, blah. but what the hell is the root? these terrorists are mindless followers of people like Bin Ladin who brainwash em, so you cant appeal to their rational side. Only way i see is to kill every last damn terrorist. If anyone has any better solutions i'm all ears!

what the hell did we do to piss em off???We buy half their freakin oil, and send em billions in aid. And if they're pissed about Israel, they can kiss our American asses!

so how about people stop looking for stupid and unjustified flaws with American policies and re-evaluate where your freakin loyalties lie!

Whew! I'm done!

hehe, Dima:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :o

[laraver]

Originally posted by tribal

hey laraver, i dont mean to insult you, but u have a very simplified view of historical events. do you have any idea as to what happened in Hama? if you are interested, read a very interesting book by T.Friedman called 'From Beirut to Jerusalem'.

The Hama massacre was not what i would call an ideal solution. Hafez Assad killed off Syria's 4th largest city, completely wiped out every inhabitant within the city limits, including thousands of women and children, who were in no way connected to the Muslim Brotherhood, a faction that was seen as a political threat to the Assad regime. Would you agree that by S.Hussein gas poisoning the Kurdish population, because he called them 'terrorists' would also be the ideal solution? please think this matter over. and in no way do i agree that a quote from the 'phantom menace' would apply here.

on the lighter side, one quote does come to mind - "i joined the army, to see exotic places, meet interesting and foreign people, then kill them" - Full Metal Jacket

My view of historical events is not simplified. As I have responded to Sassa at other times, on other posts, it has become apparent that the only language that the terrorists understand is the language of force.

What happened in Hama was brutal, tragic. Did it have the effect of stopping Islamic Fundementalist activities? Yes.

It sent a message to the terrorists that the price to pay would be so horrific that it was not worth that price.

There is not at this time any more terrorism in Syria.

As for Saddam Hussein, we all know that he is a modern day Hitler. His actions and the actions of his government are not for the benefit of the Iraqi people. If the well being of the Iraqi people were at the top of his priorities he would not be spending his cash on programs for developing weapons. What does a nation the size and staus of Iraq need a thermonuclear device for?

The quote is applied strictly to real terrorists, ie groups, organizations and individuals who seek to destabilize and destroy legitimate governments for their own personal gain.

The Kurds were not terrorists, they only sought to have a better lives for themselves. They did not seek to impose this on other ethnic/religious/political groups, only to establish it for themselves.

You and I, and the world know the difference between Saddam's labeling of the Kurds and what Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda are.

Should we permit the growth of groups that threaten our existence?

PS - Good quote!

[igloo]

Originally posted by msoprano13

yo great article bro....see thats what i was talking about in one of my last posts about the united states gov't being the most violent gov't in the past hundred years and no other gov't has accounted for more deaths and destruction around the world then this one....

it is amazing how fucking clueless you are

[msoprano]

Originally posted by igloo

it is amazing how fucking clueless you are

not clueless bro...there have been a countless number of secret wars fought around this world that has been inflicted by the united states govt,,espicially in the thrid wrold...remember ronald reagan selling weapons and drugs to the iranian govt where those profits funded his secret wars....so clueless i am not...

[breakbeatz2]

most violent fucking country????!!!???

ONE QUESTION:

did we cause more seathe that Germany did in WWII??? (oh, shit, i forgot, that was our fault too probably)

Germany: 6,000,000+ Jews killed,

20,000,000 soviet soldiers killed, etc.

China: Cultural Revolution under Mao: millions innocent people

dead!

Stalin: milliuon of innocent RUssians sent to concentration camps from which they never returned

now, are we more violent than that???????

oh yeah, we killed millions and millions and millions of people in these secret wars, but nobody just ever found out cause we covered it up so well, right????

secret wars?????? bro, c'mon, stop trying to make things too interesting with concuctions of secret wars and conspiracy theories.

[kramadas]

Originally posted by breakbeatz2

most violent fucking country????!!!???

ONE QUESTION:

did we cause more seathe that Germany did in WWII??? (oh, shit, i forgot, that was our fault too probably)

Germany: 6,000,000+ Jews killed,

20,000,000 soviet soldiers killed, etc.

China: Cultural Revolution under Mao: millions innocent people

dead!

Stalin: milliuon of innocent RUssians sent to concentration camps from which they never returned

now, are we more violent than that???????

oh yeah, we killed millions and millions and millions of people in these secret wars, but nobody just ever found out cause we covered it up so well, right????

secret wars?????? bro, c'mon, stop trying to make things too interesting with concuctions of secret wars and conspiracy theories.

I guess you forgot South America....Panama, Nicaragua, etc, ec...

oh yeah, I forgot, it was to stop the "evil" that was communism, right??

Both sides can always come up with reasons to justify their wars...but the fact of the matter remains, these were wars. The US has been involved in more international conflict than any other country.