a HUGE-MONGOUS FUCK YOU to war hippies

[cintron]

somewhere in your reply, i'd imagine you're trying to make a valid point... but there are so many wildly inaccurate blanket statements that i won't justify it with a reply.

[Randy]

point out one as an example

[Randy]

regarding the ilegality of hte war effort, this dude is a lil more eloquent than I

http://www.lcnp.org/global/Iraqstatemt.3.pdf

[cintron]

eh - sorry dude but you're like the tenth person i've talked with today about this.

at this point, believe what you want to.

i fully support kicking ass overseas and especially Saddam's ass.

if the world wants a legal papertrail, tell em to hire Perry Mason, we've got a war to fight.

[Twilo Beauty]

Originally posted by cintron

somewhere in your reply, i'd imagine you're trying to make a valid point... but there are so many wildly inaccurate blanket statements that i won't justify it with a reply.

?????

Wow cintron, you just shot your credibility down.

Randy you made excellent points. It's the lack of "free thought" in the military that would make me think twice if my son would get forced into it. I don't want that specific type of education for any of my children. I can teach them hard work and discipline without the uniform.

At the same time, soldiers are there to perform a specific need, and that is following orders to get a job done acuarately and quickly. It's not for everyone...war's not for everyone. You basically live in a box and some people are happy with that. You need "human machines" to follow orders, protect the nation & fight wars. What's important is to appreciate them as much as we appreciate our freedom.

-iliana

[cintron]

iliana no i didn't shoot my credibility down. I'm just waayyyyyy too tired.

both of you are harping on the "human machines" element of being a soldier, and it's just not as serious as you portray it.

I am part of that system, but i don't think of myself as any less of an individual or any less intelligent and creative.

I have been in private schools all my life and i've had the privledge to attend school with such individuals as Jessie Jackson's daughter, Christopher Grace (a close friend of mine - you'd know him as "Eric" on "That 70's Show"), Hashim Hussein - a prince of Jordan, and many others. I consider myself to be a highly educated individual with a good grasp on my surroundings and on my position in the world. To this day, I still want to become an Air Force officer. I see nothing in such an occupation that requires a lack of education or anything less from a person than intelligence, character and courage.

As for the "mindless drone" approach, when they first start their job, military personnel do start somewhere on the bottom rung. On that bottom rung, be it officer or enlisted, you are taking more orders than you are giving - and that doesn't just apply to the military, but also to many walks of civilian life.

The type of person that is your average soldier is a person who has (or is trained to have) the ability to focus highly on the task at hand. The military has very specific tasks that require specific steps to be taken, and whether it's operating on a surgeon's table, loading ammunition or fixing a jet engine, there are certain steps that were created by people who had been there before (and some of whom had been injured or died to obtain such knowledge), that must be followed.

To me, that is no different than following certain steps to file legal papers, or storing goods in a warehouse computer.

It is a VERY different world being a soldier. The constitution does NOT apply to military personel. Instead, they have the Uniform Code of Military Justice, or UCMJ. Rather ironic that those very people who fight to defend your right to live by the constitution, are themselves denied to live under it.

Now i'm not going to begin to speak for the current administration's practices, politics or behavior. That is, as many would say, "above my pay grade."

I will however, ask you to reserve judgement about what you percieve military life and personnel to be like. UJnderneath their cold, impersonal demeanor that you seem to see, they are really still human beings that laugh and play just as anybody in the civilian world does. They tend to be VERY professional about their jobs and VERY focused when given an assignment or a mission to complete. If that leads you to percieve them as robots, so be it. In an occupation involving working around or involved directly IN combat, you SHOULD be 100% sure of the job you're doing and 110% sure that the person next to you knows exactly what they're doing, and can be counted on to do it when they're told to. This is the REAL world, and there really isn't a parallel anywhere in civilian life to compare to it.

[luiskain]

Iliana, your pacifist and 'democratic' stand is starkly contrasted by your signtature of quoting Machiaveli :D

[lynxssp]

luiskain

I can't believe what a brainwashed zombie you are

[mkutlass]

"the US picks battles it knows 100% without a doubt it can win. They know they cant go back to Africa..theyd get their ass handed to them like they did in Somalia." By ghhhost

First of all, that mission was ran by stupid people that didn't know the first thing about how to conduct an anassult. I suggest you watch the history channel!!!!!

AND as far as UK support, Saddam and the terrorists aren't going to attack the UK they r going to attack the US. The US needs to lookout for our interests and Saddam is ONE of THEM. Guest what when we attack all the pu@#$Y uk countries will be on board( they're just playing politics).

I think it won't even last a Day, with all the new weapons we have they're in for a threat.

I hope we don't go to war!!

I bet you people thought Bill Clinton was a good president!

[luiskain]

Originally posted by lynxssp

luiskain

I can't believe what a brainwashed zombie you are

See...this is the non-academic, primal, simplistic type of response i was looking for all along! Why couldn't u pointdexters just say things like this :laugh:

[luiskain]

Originally posted by cintron

iliana no i didn't shoot my credibility down. I'm just waayyyyyy too tired.

both of you are harping on the "human machines" element of being a soldier, and it's just not as serious as you portray it.

I am part of that system, but i don't think of myself as any less of an individual or any less intelligent and creative.

I have been in private schools all my life

Where'd u go? I went to calhoun

[cintron]

Originally posted by luiskain

Where'd u go? I went to calhoun

I went to Fay School, followed by St. Mark's high school - both in Southboro Massachusetts, now i'm at RPI in Troy NY

[loch]

straying from the debate at hand, i know, but until i can find

myself in a mood to reconcile my own ambivalence about the

perrenial pro-war/anti-war issues...my post to effect a

reasonable argument for and/or against either will have to wait.

until then, i'll just have to quibble on this insignificant (relatively

speaking) point:

Originally posted by Randy

Is it discipline, or subordination that the military teaches? A system of of tkaing orders discourages free thought. ...

• you are splitting hairs on the discipline/subordination definition; for all intents and purposes, the spirit of those 2 words describe essentially the same thing: maintaining order to produce a desired result
  
• even in a free thinking society, some level of order must be established; they are not two mutually exclusive concepts.
  
• do not automatically attach simpleton connotations to a disciplined, or as you say, "subordinate" function. taking orders from your lieutenant on the battlefield is no different from taking orders from your boss in corporate america. they each serve a purpose. and all jobs, for that matter--and by definition--require conformity to demands to produce a desired result.
  
• free thought is over rated anyway. just take a look at this message board. don't you just wish sometimes you can shut some of these guys up and TELL them what to think as oppose to letting them think for themselves?
  

as you were, captain...

[Twilo Beauty]

Originally posted by cintron

iliana no i didn't shoot my credibility down. I'm just waayyyyyy too tired.

both of you are harping on the "human machines" element of being a soldier, and it's just not as serious as you portray it.

I am part of that system, but i don't think of myself as any less of an individual or any less intelligent and creative.

I have been in private schools all my life and i've had the privledge to attend school with such individuals as Jessie Jackson's daughter, Christopher Grace (a close friend of mine - you'd know him as "Eric" on "That 70's Show"), Hashim Hussein - a prince of Jordan, and many others. I consider myself to be a highly educated individual with a good grasp on my surroundings and on my position in the world. To this day, I still want to become an Air Force officer. I see nothing in such an occupation that requires a lack of education or anything less from a person than intelligence, character and courage.

As for the "mindless drone" approach, when they first start their job, military personnel do start somewhere on the bottom rung. On that bottom rung, be it officer or enlisted, you are taking more orders than you are giving - and that doesn't just apply to the military, but also to many walks of civilian life.

The type of person that is your average soldier is a person who has (or is trained to have) the ability to focus highly on the task at hand. The military has very specific tasks that require specific steps to be taken, and whether it's operating on a surgeon's table, loading ammunition or fixing a jet engine, there are certain steps that were created by people who had been there before (and some of whom had been injured or died to obtain such knowledge), that must be followed.

To me, that is no different than following certain steps to file legal papers, or storing goods in a warehouse computer.

It is a VERY different world being a soldier. The constitution does NOT apply to military personel. Instead, they have the Uniform Code of Military Justice, or UCMJ. Rather ironic that those very people who fight to defend your right to live by the constitution, are themselves denied to live under it.

Now i'm not going to begin to speak for the current administration's practices, politics or behavior. That is, as many would say, "above my pay grade."

I will however, ask you to reserve judgement about what you percieve military life and personnel to be like. UJnderneath their cold, impersonal demeanor that you seem to see, they are really still human beings that laugh and play just as anybody in the civilian world does. They tend to be VERY professional about their jobs and VERY focused when given an assignment or a mission to complete. If that leads you to percieve them as robots, so be it. In an occupation involving working around or involved directly IN combat, you SHOULD be 100% sure of the job you're doing and 110% sure that the person next to you knows exactly what they're doing, and can be counted on to do it when they're told to. This is the REAL world, and there really isn't a parallel anywhere in civilian life to compare to it.

Don't take "human machine" in a negative way. I'm aware that orders have to be taken and jobs done properly with no room for mistakes. Discipline and accuracy are highly needed. They need to be like computers..human machines. It's admirable- that's a given.

You're right, there's no comparison in Civilian life. We don't fight battles in our daily lives. But you can certainly say that doctors and surgeons need that 110% percent focus to perform in the emergency room. So do train conductors when they transport thousands of commuters a day and cops and when they are called for back up in a deadly robbery. You can't undermine regular everyday civilian duties just because the regular average Joe never signed up for military duty. That is something YOU chose to do. You chose to enlist and perhaps YOU anticipate and welcome the prospect of war. But there are others who are destined for OTHER highly skilled and IMPORTANT jobs. I get the impression that you feel that you're superior to other people because of your background and education. It's great that the military trained you to muscle your way out of a situation with the enemy. But perhaps there's someone who's never touched a gun before and can TALK there way through anything and skip the violence. That is acquired through education stemming from psychology, diplomacy, sociology, international relations, law and politics. You can skip the boot camp for these.

And that's where it all begins. Politicians, lawmakers, dictators... They call the shots. And when all else fails, you guys are the last alternative ..human shields to go in and fight. The military is at the bottom of the barrel...they have to let the dogs out to fight.........but it's what keeps this country on top and powerful so we need you- Remember that!

As far as my quote is concerned....you're probably the 100th person who doesn't get it. There's no reflection of myslef in that signature....Maybe I should be like everyone else and put my name in pink on a banner so i can stop confusion.

-iliana

[cintron]

iliana -

[Randy]

"AND as far as UK support, Saddam and the terrorists aren't going to attack the UK they r going to attack the US. The US needs to lookout for our interests and Saddam is ONE of THEM. Guest what when we attack all the pu@#$Y uk countries will be on board( they're just playing politics). "

perhaps you should read a book on geogrpahy, there aren't many uk countries

"free thought is over rated anyway. just take a look at this message board. don't you just wish sometimes you can shut some of these guys up and TELL them what to think as oppose to letting them think for themselves? "

it would be a very boring world if everyone was forced to think in one manner. i don't work in corporate america. I make a lot less money, but I at least have control over my destiny and don't have to wear some starchy shirt to work.

Perhaps it is a matter of personal desires and opinions, but I hate the idea of anyone ebing ranked above anyone else. I give respect to wisdom earned from experience, but experience doesn't always guarantee wisdom. In my occupation I do have a boss, but he asks for my advice as much as I ask his. Ultimately it is his call, but then he is paying me. In hte military you do not have that option. Correct me if I'm wrong, but would a commanding officer ever ask an infantry his thoughts on a mission at hand?

This is obviously not the same mission as the vietnam war or ww2. I would have fought in ww2, but would you have wanted to fight in the vietnam war?

[sassa]

it all comes down to two things that make the world operate the way it does: money and power. they're attached to security, good living, etc etc etc...but there are people who take it too far, like the people in the governments. it's really hard to try to find a government in the world that is not totally corrupt in some sort of way, some countries just don't care how it appears while they're making billions of dollars off the environment, the common people, and general life on this planet. this war is proof of how they are wielding their power to cause havoc and death in a country in a middle east which would be key to their controlling the events in that area.....

an interesting e-mail a friend sent me,

Hmm, the Rich and the Poor, have and have not.. this struggle is eternal heh. So yes, where it is shamelessly obvious, it is also survival issue for some. Take for example, the Iraq crisis. The kids in iraq dont have pensils, coz pensils have lead, and lead is banned for Iraq. North Korea is yelling 'I have weapons, and YES they are NUCLEAR" and no no, rumsflied wants to deal with it diplometically. Why? because they will get no logistics support, and nations aorund North Korea wont let it happen. But Iraq, after 10 years of complete misries, with no weapon, and 5 million kids dead due to embargo, (and Ms Madlien Albright said , I think the price of dead kids was well worth of the targets we have achieved in Iraq), and they still wont leave Iraq alone.

You know, its very intersting. Sometimes pretty woman gets in trouble because of her beauty, more people are attracted and all. same is the case with Iraq, its geopolitical importence is too attractive for US. Attacking Iraq will give US too much benefits, the arab countries are getting harder to control, because the POEPLE hate US. and US knows that it can no longer trust the kings and rulers of those lands. Even Hosney Mubarak is saying dont attack or my govt. will be in trouble. You know, Mubarak gets around 2 billion USD of aid. next to israel.. so point is, US knows it wont get a better chance again, no US comnpany is drillin oil from Iraq, so if US is in iraq, it ll have a big advantage of its so called allies (russian, germany and france who drill oil). So the scene is set. They dont care about human rights. Iraq has voilated 2 UN resolutions. Israel has voilated 68.

[cintron]

Originally posted by Randy

Correct me if I'm wrong, but would a commanding officer ever ask an infantry his thoughts on a mission at hand?

Listen to your subordinates. one of the key components of leadership that the air force teaches. there are situations for everything, and the military is NOT a democracy.

[willisj68]

I think it won't even last a Day, with all the new weapons we have they're in for a threat.

you're kidding right??.. i mean, you would have to be kidding.. even the first gulf war didn't last a day jackass.. and if the plan of this war is to take out saddam that will mean significantly more street to street , in the city, among the houses fighting... how do you think that will only take a day.. f'ing idiot.. that type of war will lead to more soldiers lost on our side, a longer drawn out war, more money, more hatred of us by other arab countries after we kill civilians by accident.. this war will take nowhere near one day, it will take a while, we WILL lose significant numbers of soldiers.. who for the most part, are pretty much like you and me.. why should they lose their lives, so your gas prices can go down 10 cents.. fuck that..

I bet you people thought Bill Clinton was a good president!

and no, i think clinton sucked ass.. i think his policies or lack thereof caused many of the problems we're experiencing now.. 9/11 included... at the same time.. i think bush sucks ass just as much.. his economic plans suck unless you're rich, his foreign policy doesn't exist, his homeland security thoughts make me long to live in 1930's nazi germany, his forcing his morals on me piss me off... I could continue but i won't bore you...

to any of you that are in the military, I support you fully, may whatever higher power you want be with you and protect you, and may you get home as soon as possible.. don't take my disagreeing with war as a knock on you, it's not.. if there was a draft, I would go, but I would hope we would exhaust other means before we go to war.. and have some proof other than bush saying "i said so" for the need to go to war

willis

-peace is patriotic too

[nycmuzik]

Ehhh...I'm so sick of Somalia being dragged into everyone of these topics and made to look like a military failure....Its a political failure if anything....Look at who was in office at the time...Bill Clinton....Him and his administration fucked this up big time....They sent in American soldiers who were fully capable of doing the task at hand if they had the proper support.....Unfortunetly they werent.....No heavy armor(tanks, Apc's, etc) or close air support(Ac-130's) were sent in with them because Clinton didnt want a big show of force....Thats ridiculous...If you send Americans in then you better give them what they need to get the job done....In the end the soldiers werent allowed to finish the job they were sent in to do because Clinton didnt have the balls to finish what he started....

[luiskain]

I know there's a US law against assasinations but like, would it really be that hard to take Sadam out?

I mean, I'm sure there's a super agent who can do it.

"...you get me and this here rifle anywhere from and up to 100 feet of Sadam, pack your bags, boy, war's over"

"that's great, bumpkin..."

[loch]

Originally posted by luiskain

Do you know what kind of almost sci-fi like weapons your millions and billions of tax dollars have bought the US military? Short of a cloaked Romulan warbird, <snort> it's safe to say that sadam would just get whooped.

Originally posted by mkutlass

I think it won't even last a Day, with all the new weapons we have they're in for a threat.

masked by words launched from behind computer screens, you obviously have illusions about war and what it entails.

[cintron]

Originally posted by luiskain

I know there's a US law against assasinations but like, would it really be that hard to take Sadam out?

I mean, I'm sure there's a super agent who can do it.

"...you get me and this here rifle anywhere from and up to 100 feet of Sadam, pack your bags, boy, war's over"

"that's great, bumpkin..."

There USED to be a law against it.

Bush got rid of that law when he allowed the CIA to [once again] engage foreign nationals without prior authorization.

No it would not be diffficult to shoot Saddam at all.

the complications it would create would be enormous however.

THe world would scream about the unfairness of it all, because it's okay for Palestinians to step on a bus with a bomb, or for Saddam to use rocket-laden gunships against Kurds in the north, but if we shot him with a bullet that costs less than a can of soda, you can bet the world would be on our ass calling us the bad guy.

[loch]

Originally posted by Randy

Originally posted by loch

free thought is over rated anyway. just take a look at this message board. don't you just wish sometimes you can shut some of these guys up and TELL them what to think as oppose to letting them think for themselves?

it would be a very boring world if everyone was forced to think in one manner...

i realize i'm not the keenest on sarcasm, but i was sure the winking smiley face would've been a dead giveaway. for the record, i was being sarcastic.

but since we're still on this, i'll humor you by being argumentative for just another minute (i'm neurotic like that). for the same reason you took the extremist "disciplined/subordinate" view -- that it discourages free thought -- i feel it is necessary to point out the extreme on the other end of the spectrum: an unchecked, free-wheeling, free-thinking, wild-thoughts-galore-running-amuck society without any heirarchy of order and authority will inevitably lead to chaos and anarchy.

point is, discipline and free thought are not two mutually exclusive principles; they can coexist (preferably so). (by the way, i happen to agree with you. just felt like being argumentative.)

and don't have to wear some starchy shirt to work

i happen to like starchy shirts. they make me stiffy.

[willisj68]

Originally posted by luiskain

I know there's a US law against assasinations but like, would it really be that hard to take Sadam out?

I mean, I'm sure there's a super agent who can do it.

"...you get me and this here rifle anywhere from and up to 100 feet of Sadam, pack your bags, boy, war's over"

"that's great, bumpkin..."

seriously now, I really would love to know just how stupid you are.. i realize this is a clubbing message board, there doesn't have to be too much serious shit on it.. but since you started this whole little thread you would think you might have some shred of human intelligence.. you know, something to distinguish you from your ape ancestors.. yeah, i'm sure there's a super agent that could do it.. he's probably a lot like the dude from halo.. so just get him the active camo, then he'll be invisible and he can just walk all the way thru f'ing iraq and kill sadam.. and that wouldn't cause any sort of reprucussions (sp?) with the rest of the arab world, who if you're not really sure can control a large portion of our economy and life in general by upping the oil prices.. which again, is all this war is about.. well that and getting back at the guy who wanted to have daddy killed..

anyway, sorry, I ramble.. my original point was.. goddamn you're an idiot.. but sure, the super soldiers can kill him.. and if they were around and could i'm sure they would quote bad war movie lines and try and start intelligent topics on clubplanet when basic intelligence is most likely far above them.. ughh

willis