igloo Posted March 11 Report Share Posted March 11 Diana West March 11, 2003Sorry apologies for speaking the truthThis is a tale of two news stories. They both pertain to Islam and culture clash in the post-9/11 world, but they take place in parallel universes: the first in a world where hard facts are prized like battle stars, the second in a milieu where reality's sharper edges require plenty of padding.The first story is big stuff: The federal government is making the case that the prominent Yemeni cleric Muhammad Ali Hassan al-Mouyad used the Al Farooq Mosque in Brooklyn to help funnel millions of dollars to Al Qaeda -- $20 million to Osama bin Laden personally, according to what the cleric supposedly told an FBI informant. (Incidentally, the Al Farooq Mosque is also where Egyptian radical Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman -- convicted in the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center that killed six and wounded more than 1,000 -- served briefly as imam.) As The New York Times put it, federal authorities see the Yemeni imam's arrest as one of the major financial busts since 9/11 "in terms of both the amount of money involved and the direct connection alleged to Mr. bin Laden himself."Rita Katz, a specialist in terrorism finance, explained the case's significance this way: "It shows that Islamic clerics are having a lot to do with funding and assisting Al Qaeda." They are? To be sure, the government says that this particular cleric has. Have others? And what about the worshippers at Al Farooq? Do some number of them support Al Qaeda in particular, or just "jihad" in general? Or were they all duped into scraping together hundreds of thousands of dollars for some unknown cause?These and other questions remain not only unanswered but unasked, unspeakable ciphers on the boundaries of acceptable national discourse. There is no help in sight from Brooklyn mosque officials, of course, who profess to be "very, very, very surprised" by the government's charges. Meanwhile, Yemeni leaders huffily point to Mr. al-Mouyad's respected role as a charitable imam who works in the Yemeni ministry that oversees mosques. (This last bit is not necessarily confidence-building given a recent government-broadcast out of Yemen's Grand Mosque: "O God, destroy the unjust sons of Zion and the arrogant Americans. O God, shake the ground under them, instill panic into their hearts and disperse them. O God, destroy them, for they are within your power.")Which leaves us exactly where? Left to wonder why the Islamic advocacy groups in the United States fail to rejoice in a successful government sting operation against what certainly appears to be an unholy holy man who gives Islam a bad name. And we're left to wonder why Islamic moderates remain incapable of bringing off a good old-fashioned schism to divide their peaceable selves from their violent-minded co-religionists. Do such moderates attend the Dallas Central Mosque, where a fund-raiser for five brothers charged with doing business with the Palestinian terrorist group Hamas was held last month? How about the Islamic Center of Greater Cleveland, where mosque officials have decided to retain an imam linked by reports to the federal indictment against suspected Islamic Jihad leader Sami Al-Arian? One has uncomfortable questions, too, about the moderate views of worshippers at the Islamic Community of Tampa Bay, where Mr. Al-Arian remains imam and president.But such questions aren't being entertained. Which brings us to the second news story, as promised above. It has to do with Lois McMahan, a bespectacled, pearl-necklace-wearing, Republican state representative who declined to take her seat in the Washington legislature this week until after Olympia imam Mohamad Joban finished opening the "session of the House of Representatives in the name of Allah...." Why? Calling it an "issue of patriotism," she told the Seattle Post-Intelligencer, "The Islamic religion is so ... part and parcel with the attack on America. I just didn't want to be there, be part of that. Even though the mainstream Islamic religion doesn't profess to hate America, nonetheless it spawns the groups that hate America." To Washington state's Sun newspaper, she said, "I'd die for their right to believe what they want to believe; that's America. But the Islamic leaders of this country have not been vocal enough about their criticism of the enemies of this country."One news cycle later, Rep. McMahan was making headlines again, only this time to recant. "I apologize for offenses given and would like to ask for forgiveness to any whom I have offended," she said, addressing her colleagues from the legislature floor. And soon, she added, she would be delivering her apologies "personally" to the imam on an upcoming visit to his mosque.What will she say? Something like, "I'm sorry for observing that certain Islamic groups hate America religiously"? Or, "I'm sorry for noticing that Islamic leaders have been tepid in their condemnations of terrorist organizations"? "I'm sorry for raising a serious concern in the hopes of fueling an honest exchange"?I'm sorry, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kramadas Posted March 11 Report Share Posted March 11 I agree that I have not *heard* much on the news about islamic societies in the US and around the world criticizing the fundamentalists.However, I should also add that such speeches might not make big news (truthfully, how else would we know such speeches are made unless we attend mosques ourselves) headlines, because these kind of things are not exactly "exciting news". So, its no secret that we're not hearing enough from islamic moderates, but the question is, have we been looking hard enough? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igloo Posted March 11 Author Report Share Posted March 11 Originally posted by raver_mania I agree that I have not *heard* much on the news about islamic societies in the US and around the world criticizing the fundamentalists.However, I should also add that such speeches might not make big news (truthfully, how else would we know such speeches are made unless we attend mosques ourselves) headlines, because these kind of things are not exactly "exciting news". So, its no secret that we're not hearing enough from islamic moderates, but the question is, have we been looking hard enough? O'Reilly had a good debate on this one night....he was accussed of not seeking Islamic moderates for his show....I wonder too if we are looking hard enough.....but also, why should it be so hard to look for?You would think that the true leaders of true Islam would be as loud as possible, to the point where media did not have to seek them out.....How about a Muslim March organized in cities across the US denouncing the extremists......more op-eds?....demanding time in mainstream media....just thoughts....Sassa--ease up on your expected response. This could be happening but I have not seen it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igloo Posted March 11 Author Report Share Posted March 11 Sassa...where are you ?...I can't believe you are not responding to this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassa Posted March 11 Report Share Posted March 11 Originally posted by igloo Diana West March 11, 2003Sorry apologies for speaking the truthThis is a tale of two news stories. They both pertain to Islam and culture clash in the post-9/11 world, but they take place in parallel universes: the first in a world where hard facts are prized like battle stars, the second in a milieu where reality's sharper edges require plenty of padding.The first story is big stuff: The federal government is making the case that the prominent Yemeni cleric Muhammad Ali Hassan al-Mouyad used the Al Farooq Mosque in Brooklyn to help funnel millions of dollars to Al Qaeda -- $20 million to Osama bin Laden personally, according to what the cleric supposedly told an FBI informant. (Incidentally, the Al Farooq Mosque is also where Egyptian radical Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman -- convicted in the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center that killed six and wounded more than 1,000 -- served briefly as imam.) this is very shameful...VERY SHAMEFUL! these people have desecrated the meaning of the mosque and used it for their own sick purposes...i saw a video taped by the FBI a few months ago describing this same place....it needs to be shut down...but people need to realize that not all mosques are like this...nor do all mosques support this type of activity. As The New York Times put it, federal authorities see the Yemeni imam's arrest as one of the major financial busts since 9/11 "in terms of both the amount of money involved and the direct connection alleged to Mr. bin Laden himself."Rita Katz, a specialist in terrorism finance, explained the case's significance this way: "It shows that Islamic clerics are having a lot to do with funding and assisting Al Qaeda." this cannot be argued, since the late 1980s and perhaps even earlier there have been fundamentalist groups in this country who have set up camps to train and raise funds for groups like al-qaeda and hamas...some have been tracked and shut down by the FBI...others are still operating, many of them exist in the Midwest part of the United States actually...ironically enough. They are? To be sure, the government says that this particular cleric has. Have others? And what about the worshippers at Al Farooq? Do some number of them support Al Qaeda in particular, or just "jihad" in general? Or were they all duped into scraping together hundreds of thousands of dollars for some unknown cause?These and other questions remain not only unanswered but unasked, unspeakable ciphers on the boundaries of acceptable national discourse. There is no help in sight from Brooklyn mosque officials, of course, who profess to be "very, very, very surprised" by the government's charges. Meanwhile, Yemeni leaders huffily point to Mr. al-Mouyad's respected role as a charitable imam who works in the Yemeni ministry that oversees mosques. (This last bit is not necessarily confidence-building given a recent government-broadcast out of Yemen's Grand Mosque: "O God, destroy the unjust sons of Zion and the arrogant Americans. O God, shake the ground under them, instill panic into their hearts and disperse them. O God, destroy them, for they are within your power.")Which leaves us exactly where? Left to wonder why the Islamic advocacy groups in the United States fail to rejoice in a successful government sting operation against what certainly appears to be an unholy holy man who gives Islam a bad name. Come on...while I do think they should be more supportive, if at least to show that they are not supporting their terrorism, it should also be understood that the Muslim community (of course) cannot support the idea of their brothers and sisters in religion being pursued and attacked by non-Muslims...all religions do the same, from the KKK extreme christians, to the hassadim ....everyone supports their brethren and denounces those who aren't. But I will say that I am disappointed they did not properly present themselves very well, especially in the first few months after 9/11..... And we're left to wonder why Islamic moderates remain incapable of bringing off a good old-fashioned schism to divide their peaceable selves from their violent-minded co-religionists. Do such moderates attend the Dallas Central Mosque, where a fund-raiser for five brothers charged with doing business with the Palestinian terrorist group Hamas was held last month? This is such a stupid statement! That's like saying you want to separate the bad and good of society...which is impossible...and I think she knows that... How about the Islamic Center of Greater Cleveland, where mosque officials have decided to retain an imam linked by reports to the federal indictment against suspected Islamic Jihad leader Sami Al-Arian? I don't know enough about this to comment. One has uncomfortable questions, too, about the moderate views of worshippers at the Islamic Community of Tampa Bay, where Mr. Al-Arian remains imam and president.But such questions aren't being entertained. Which brings us to the second news story, as promised above. It has to do with Lois McMahan, a bespectacled, pearl-necklace-wearing, Republican state representative who declined to take her seat in the Washington legislature this week until after Olympia imam Mohamad Joban finished opening the "session of the House of Representatives in the name of Allah...." Allah literally means God, and up until recently the pledge of allegiance was proudly recited in schools across the United States...I myself did it and know it by heart....why do people not understand this? God is Allah, he is also Yahweh, Adonai, Buddha, whatever you want to call him....how is this disrespectful I don't understand...I think she is just ignorant and biased....little surprise. Why? Calling it an "issue of patriotism," she told the Seattle Post-Intelligencer, "The Islamic religion is so ... part and parcel with the attack on America. I just didn't want to be there, be part of that. Even though the mainstream Islamic religion doesn't profess to hate America, nonetheless it spawns the groups that hate America." I don't even think I need to nitpick this comment..she proves her limited knowledge of Islam in this statement....and these kind of people occupy our highest offices....now that is truly a shame. Islam does not spawn these terrorist groups, the people who create them do. Religion is merely used as a tool to coerce people into joining their cause or used as a scapegoat when people fuck up... To Washington state's Sun newspaper, she said, "I'd die for their right to believe what they want to believe; that's America. But the Islamic leaders of this country have not been vocal enough about their criticism of the enemies of this country."What exactly should they do to please Ms. McMahan.....any ideas? One news cycle later, Rep. McMahan was making headlines again, only this time to recant. "I apologize for offenses given and would like to ask for forgiveness to any whom I have offended," she said, addressing her colleagues from the legislature floor. And soon, she added, she would be delivering her apologies "personally" to the imam on an upcoming visit to his mosque.I don't even have a comment for this....What will she say? Something like, "I'm sorry for observing that certain Islamic groups hate America religiously"? this drips with sarcasm...but i like it....loooooool Or, "I'm sorry for noticing that Islamic leaders have been tepid in their condemnations of terrorist organizations"? "I'm sorry for raising a serious concern in the hopes of fueling an honest exchange"?pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeee...honest exchange???? when were there any attempts from their part to understand the underlying roots of all this tension going around lately??? US foreign policy has merely been to attack the groups and kill them, but they have not made attempts to understand their reasoning for why they hate the US and what they do...they have been continuously ignorant in this....they don't care, bottom line....people don't just ram airplanes in buildings for no reason....TRY TO UNDERSTAND THESE REASONS AND TRY TO RECTIFY THEM IF THEY NEED TO BE RECTIFIED! remember we are part of a global community and it would indeed be very selfish of us to assume that what we do will not affect the rest of the world (if not politically or socially, then economically no doubt...) the us is acting too unilaterally...and that's a scary thing. I'm sorry, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igloo Posted March 11 Author Report Share Posted March 11 nice job Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassa Posted March 11 Report Share Posted March 11 Originally posted by igloo nice job what is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepak1977 Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 U.S. Muslim leaders reject Bin Laden call AMERICAN MUSLIM NEWS BRIEF | 2/14/2003 (Jim Remsen, Philadelphia Inquirer) - Although most Muslims repudiate bin Laden, they have not been able to escape his taint since the Sept. 11 attacks, noted Osman bin Bakar, a scholar at Georgetown University's Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding. "Every time he opens his mouth, it puts Muslims in difficulty," Bakar said. "It puts pressure on the Muslims here to disassociate themselves from what he is saying." Muslim leaders contacted yesterday emphatically distanced themselves from bin Laden and his latest call to suicide attacks and other terrorism. "We're Americans. We don't go for that," said Marwan Kreidie, spokesman for the Al-Aqsa Islamic Society, a North Philadelphia mosque with many Arab and Arab American members… Many Muslims disagree with U.S. foreign policy, "but that does not mean they listen to a person who is an outlaw and is doing things totally contrary to whatever Islam stands for," said Masood Ghaznavi, board chairman of the American Muslim Society of the Tristate Area… Such talk is "silly" and "only aggravates the situation," Kreidie said. "We don't need Osama bin Laden to tell us about the problems with what Israel and the United States are doing and the Palestinian rights to a homeland. "He is hijacking the religion and trying to hijack the Iraq situation, just like he hijacked the Palestinian situation before this." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igloo Posted March 12 Author Report Share Posted March 12 Originally posted by sassa what is? your response Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassa Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 Originally posted by igloo your response thank you...i'm actually surprised...what happened to all the rage and insults??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igloo Posted March 12 Author Report Share Posted March 12 Originally posted by sassa thank you...i'm actually surprised...what happened to all the rage and insults??? Are you telling me that you have not noticed how easy I have been on you lately? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmatas2277 Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 Originally posted by igloo Are you telling me that you have not noticed how easy I have been on you lately? she doesnt notice alot of things...she didnt recognize my attempts at peace with her...and she doesnt notice urs...i am telling u....u have to blunt with this girl, she cant figure out hints so well.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr mahs Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 Originally posted by igloo Are you telling me that you have not noticed how easy I have been on you lately? Oh I get it kill em with kindness...Good idea. Gentley inform them how dellusional they are.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igloo Posted March 12 Author Report Share Posted March 12 For the record, I still disagree with most (99.9%) of her views.....and of course, she with me as well.....But perhaps, just perhaps, if we tone down our Sassa bashing (which most of the time, IMO, is defensive)....she will diminish her "everyone is narrow minded" perspective and she will take into consideration our views......Also, I know Sassa secretly wants me, so I am catering to her unspoken desires as well... .....plus, she may be a closet conservative, and it is my job to bring it out in her..laugh: ......right Sassa!Lastly, abnormalnoises made me realize that by no means does Sassa deserve the level of retaliation leveled at abnormalnoises...abnormalnoises is a disgraceful human.....Sassa is just seriously misguided;) Just having fun Sassa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dnice35 Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 Originally posted by igloo abnormalnoises is a disgraceful human.....Sassa is just seriously misguided;) You surprised me with that last statement, you actually think of noises as a human? disgraceful and all, calling him a human is kinda pushing it dont you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igloo Posted March 12 Author Report Share Posted March 12 Originally posted by dnice35 You surprised me with that last statement, you actually think of noises as a human? disgraceful and all, calling him a human is kinda pushing it dont you think? excellent point....abnormalnoises should never be equated with anything human, except perhaps human waste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmatas2277 Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 Originally posted by igloo excellent point....abnormalnoises should never be equated with anything human, except perhaps human waste :laugh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dnice35 Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 Originally posted by igloo excellent point....abnormalnoises should never be equated with anything human, except perhaps human waste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igloo Posted March 12 Author Report Share Posted March 12 Love thrown at Sassa and she is nowhere to be found? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmatas2277 Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 Originally posted by igloo Love thrown at Sassa and she is nowhere to be found? i think she is in love with both me and igloo....too much for her little liberal heart to bear.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dnice35 Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 I guess she doesnt know how to handle being liked, shes all about the drama ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassa Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 Originally posted by mrmatas2277 i think she is in love with both me and igloo....too much for her little liberal heart to bear.... .............naaaaaaaa.....but maybe it's the other way around ...where's the love?igloo, i would have to agree that it would be nice if you chilled out with your comments...but i don't know about becoming a conservative....i am not a liberal either. i don't like to be classified into any groups. i have my ideas and i don't want to be affliated with any party or group or mentality...we all need to chill out....a little more.p.s. mrmatas and igloo: i am not that dense. i did notice. i just don't take compliments too well. but thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmatas2277 Posted March 13 Report Share Posted March 13 Originally posted by sassa we all need to chill out....a little more. ...i told dnice that ur heart wasnt cold as ice, now he has no arguement.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassa Posted March 13 Report Share Posted March 13 Originally posted by mrmatas2277 ...i told dnice that ur heart wasnt cold as ice, now he has no arguement.... you're cute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyman1966 Posted March 13 Report Share Posted March 13 Originally posted by sassa i don't like to be classified into any groups. i have my ideas and i don't want to be affliated with any party or group or mentality... Or? Is it that MOST GROUPS don't want to be "affliated" with YOU? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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