eggmok Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 it's inevitable . . .i support our troops, especially because one of my cousins just joined the marines a few months ago . . .gawd we take so much for granted here . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicman Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 it'll be over in a blink of an eye. i really dont support the rational behind the going to war, but that is a topic of discussion outside of CP, however the real work will come after the war is over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revaluation Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 sucks cuz I want to watch all that stuff but I'll be in Miami....hope we get Fox News in our hotel room...not that I'll be in there much... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadygroovedc Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 I hope we rip Sadaam's balls off and feed his testicles to the French. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinybutterfli Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 Originally posted by vicman it'll be over in a blink of an eye. yes but a lot of people will die in that one blink. I'm not going to get into a why we should go to war v. why we shouldn't go to war argument here. I wish there were better ways to resolve things but I also wish I could still run around in underoos at age 27 so... don't mind me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicman Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 like if there is any doubt of the outcome of the war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicman Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 Originally posted by tinybutterfli yes but a lot of people will die in that one blink. I'm not going to get into a why we should go to war v. why we shouldn't go to war argument here. I wish there were better ways to resolve things but I also wish I could still run around in underoos at age 27 so... don't mind me i know. a lot of people will die and thats what sucks, especially since there is a better way to deal with all of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicman Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 Originally posted by shadygroovedc I hope we rip Sadaam's balls off and feed his testicles to the French. same french that blocked british forces during the american revolution, same french that aided union troops when the british aided confederate troops? might as well send the statue of liberty back to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kramadas Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 "if it weren't for the French we'd still be part of Great Britain"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggmok Posted March 12 Author Report Share Posted March 12 and without the french we wouldn't have fries, toast, dressing and pierre . . .well i think the real issue is disarmament vs. war . . .saddam is a sick dictator, he should be ousted . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadygroovedc Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 Originally posted by vicman same french that blocked british forces during the american revolution, same french that aided union troops when the british aided confederate troops? might as well send the statue of liberty back to them. If they turn their backs on history then we should too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicman Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 Originally posted by eggmok and without the french we wouldn't have fries, toast, dressing and pierre . . .well i think the real issue is disarmament vs. war . . .saddam is a sick dictator, he should be ousted . . . yeah i agree, but the question what will happen afterwards? and to expand on the issue a bit and risking muddying the water even more, why isn't anything going on with the North Koreans? I've even read of the possibility of US troops pulling out of South Korea all together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revaluation Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 Originally posted by vicman i know. a lot of people will die and thats what sucks, especially since there is a better way to deal with all of this. a lot of people are already dead. thousands upon thousands of Iraqis, Kurds, Shiites, Muslims, non-Muslims, and Kuwaitis have been murdered, tortured, imprisoned, and exposed to to some of the most horrible deaths by chemical and biological weapons known to man. And we want to sit by and slap him on the hand while he reaches for nuclear weapons? Granted, it sounds counterintuitive, but war will really save more lives. BTW, Have you guys heard of an honor killing? In Iraq it is perfectly legal for a man to murder a woman in defense of his family's honor. Look it up. And we're not talking about just adultery here. If a man's wife is so much as seen in public walking next to another man then she has disgraced the husband's family name and may be legally murdered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicman Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 Originally posted by shadygroovedc If they turn their backs on history then we should too. the notion of the french having to be "grateful" for liberating them in the second world war also has a bit of flaws. the joke of "how many french does it take to defend paris?" is also old. why werent there french troops around to defend their homeland during the second world war? because most of the french army was gone after the first world war, one that the US didnt participate in, mind you. further a good percentage of the population was lost during the war, so having enough soldiers (typically men in our age bracket) to succesfully defend their country was not possible. fuck, they might have not been succesfull, but they died trying. further, the notion of leaders being knowledgeable individuals, be it in governement, in private companies, family, etc. is also erroneous. certainly we've all probably have had bosses in our jobs that are incompetents and morons. expanding that towards a governmental structure isnt really far fetched.with politics there is always lots of stuff on the background that one should know or be aware of before coming to any decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicman Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 Originally posted by revaluation a lot of people are already dead. thousands upon thousands of Iraqis, Kurds, Shiites, Muslims, non-Muslims, and Kuwaitis have been murdered, tortured, imprisoned, and exposed to to some of the most horrible deaths by chemical and biological weapons known to man. And we want to sit by and slap him on the hand while he reaches for nuclear weapons? Granted, it sounds counterintuitive, but war will really save more lives. BTW, Have you guys heard of an honor killing? In Iraq it is perfectly legal for a man to murder a woman in defense of his family's honor. Look it up. And we're not talking about just adultery here. If a man's wife is so much as seen in public walking next to another man then she has disgraced the husband's family name and may be legally murdered. china invaded tibet, and north korea is way ahead of the curve in developing nuclear weapons, and saudi money funds a lot of these terrorist groups, and cuba poses no real threat to the US anymore yet a blockade is still in place, and a ton of US soldiers died in the Vietnam War but its cool to do business there now. too me the inspections are starting to work, if necessary send in US troops to do those inspections, remove him from power incarcerate him, i'm willing to bet that the majority of the Iraqi army would defect if given the choice. the fact that the war willbe over as fast as it starts is proof that Iraq on the military level has nothing.on honor killing, its a cultural norm, same way there are cultural norms in this society that would be considered weird, immoral, strange and illegal in other societies. like polygamy in Utah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revaluation Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 Originally posted by vicman on honor killing, its a cultural norm, same way there are cultural norms in this society that would be considered weird, immoral, strange and illegal in other societies. like polygamy in Utah. whoa whoa whoa! We're not talking about ties versus turbins or cars versus bicycles. Some things I don't agree with but I can let it pass as "cultural difference", such as no accountable judicial system, or even some severe punishment for some crime. But this is not about a cultural norm: this is the blatant, systematic, institutional oppression and submission of the entire female population including murder and rape. That should offend the human senses not just American ones.Perhaps American slavery was just a "cultural norm" that should have been overlooked? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadygroovedc Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 Originally posted by vicman the notion of the french having to be "grateful" for liberating them in the second world war also has a bit of flaws. the joke of "how many french does it take to defend paris?" is also old. further, the notion of leaders being knowledgeable individuals, be it in governement, in private companies, family, etc. is also erroneous. certainly we've all probably have had bosses in our jobs that are incompetents and morons. expanding that towards a governmental structure isnt really far fetched.with politics there is always lots of stuff on the background that one should know or be aware of before coming to any decision. To think any person is infallable is stupid. Chirac won't always make the right decisions. Bush won't always make the right decisions. But politically, it's safer to not do something than to put yourself on a limb and go with your convictions and take action. This war could completely backfire on Bush and he'd be ruined politically. But arguments aside about money, oil, re-election, it's agreed upon by the people around Bush that since the terror attacks, he has made it his number one goal of his presidency to make the US a safer place. Maybe some consider him incompetent, maybe some consider him a moron. But I consider people with balls like Bush and Blair who will go out and take action when no one else will, to be better leaders than guys like Chirac, who just sit on their asses more concerned with political fallout than actually taking action against what they believe in their hearts is the right thing to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadygroovedc Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 Originally posted by revaluation whoa whoa whoa! We're not talking about ties versus turbins or cars versus bicycles. Some things I don't agree with but I can let it pass as "cultural difference", such as no accountable judicial system, or even some severe punishment for some crime. But this is not about a cultural norm: this is the blatant, systematic, institutional oppression and submission of the entire female population including murder and rape. That should offend the human senses not just American ones.Perhaps American slavery was just a "cultural norm" that should have been overlooked? I totally gotta agree with Brian here. The only God-given right, a Social Contract, if you will, is our right to live. And you could even extend that to a right to live freely. No culturally or socially acceptable behavior should be allowed to take that away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kramadas Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 Originally posted by revaluation a lot of people are already dead. thousands upon thousands of Iraqis, Kurds, Shiites, Muslims, non-Muslims, and Kuwaitis have been murdered, tortured, imprisoned, and exposed to to some of the most horrible deaths by chemical and biological weapons known to man. And we want to sit by and slap him on the hand while he reaches for nuclear weapons? Granted, it sounds counterintuitive, but war will really save more lives. BTW, Have you guys heard of an honor killing? In Iraq it is perfectly legal for a man to murder a woman in defense of his family's honor. Look it up. And we're not talking about just adultery here. If a man's wife is so much as seen in public walking next to another man then she has disgraced the husband's family name and may be legally murdered. Isn't that a whole ME thing? I know they do that in Pakistan - pretty sick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kramadas Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 Originally posted by shadygroovedc To think any person is infallable is stupid. Chirac won't always make the right decisions. Bush won't always make the right decisions. But politically, it's safer to not do something than to put yourself on a limb and go with your convictions and take action. This war could completely backfire on Bush and he'd be ruined politically. But arguments aside about money, oil, re-election, it's agreed upon by the people around Bush that since the terror attacks, he has made it his number one goal of his presidency to make the US a safer place. Maybe some consider him incompetent, maybe some consider him a moron. But I consider people with balls like Bush and Blair who will go out and take action when no one else will, to be better leaders than guys like Chirac, who just sit on their asses more concerned with political fallout than actually taking action against what they believe in their hearts is the right thing to do. Actually, I think Chirac is doing the exact opposite of what you say - he's out on a limb, having the balls to defy the Bush and Blair. I suppose China and Russia have no balls either?I don't support Saddam but I don't support war either. Something more covert and clandenstine...convert top military figures, more spying and then having special forces go in and take Saddam AND his sons out.I do not support mass bombing of civilian areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kramadas Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 Originally posted by shadygroovedc I totally gotta agree with Brian here. The only God-given right, a Social Contract, if you will, is our right to live. And you could even extend that to a right to live freely. No culturally or socially acceptable behavior should be allowed to take that away. How about getting life in prison for shop-lifting?(California - the article I posted yesterday) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revaluation Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 Originally posted by raver_mania I don't support Saddam but I don't support war either. Something more covert and clandenstine...convert top military figures, more spying and then having special forces go in and take Saddam AND his sons out.I do not support mass bombing of civilian areas. I agree, however, right now that's illeagal by an Executive Order signed by Gerald Ford. Would you be in favor of repealing the EO and allowing the assassination of heads of state? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadygroovedc Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 Originally posted by raver_mania How about getting life in prison for shop-lifting?(California - the article I posted yesterday) California's fucked up. Everyone knows that. I've always been a supporter of Mexico taking back California. I like the three strikes and your out law, but I think it's much, much too narrow. On the other hand, three felony convictions. The guy's just stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revaluation Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 Originally posted by raver_mania How about getting life in prison for shop-lifting?(California - the article I posted yesterday) I didn't see the article..post the link.I think shady's referring to Life here though. I agree, if Singapore wants to cane people for stealing, or if California wants to impose it's "3 strikes" law, fine. But fundamentally it does not relieve them of their life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kramadas Posted March 12 Report Share Posted March 12 Originally posted by revaluation I agree, however, right now that's illeagal by an Executive Order signed by Gerald Ford. Would you be in favor of repealing the EO and allowing the assassination of heads of state? In situations like this, with a dictator in place and to avoid war, probably yes - disgusting as it is, it'd save lives in the long run.However, not in situations where the people support their leader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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