No U.S. Troops to Israel

[mr mahs]

No U.S. Troops to Israel

Edward I. Koch

Senator Richard Lugar, R-Ind., chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, has proposed that American troops, with or without the assistance of United Nations forces, patrol the border between Israel and the West Bank and Gaza.

This is a terrible idea, which Israel has rightly rejected over the years, not wanting to entrust its security to others or to be responsible for the death of a single American soldier.

Such deaths would almost certainly occur as the result of terrorist acts, just as they have in Iraq, where 47 American soldiers have been killed since President George W. Bush said hostilities had ceased.

If American forces are used in Israel, they would never take on the suicide bombers, nor should they. Their sole function would be to prevent Israeli reprisals to terrorist attacks by Hamas and others. This could cause misunderstandings and perhaps even combat between Americans and Israelis, to the delight of the Palestinians.

Hamas shows no signs of abandoning its terror campaign against Israelis. This week, Hamas rejected the Egyptian government's effort to end Hamas’ policy of murdering Israeli soldiers and civilians.

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon responded by stating, “As long as there is terror, it will not be possible to make progress.” President Bush appears to understand and accept that conclusion. He said, “The free world and those who love freedom and peace must deal harshly with Hamas and the killers.”

The goal of Hamas, expressed by its leader, Abdel Aziz Rantisi, is summed up by his statement: “I am telling Sharon and all the Israeli murderers, you don’t have any security unless you leave the country. There will be no single Jew in Palestine. We will fight them with all the power that we have.”

Rantisi’s vision of a future without Jews is no different from Adolf Hitler’s intent on making Europe judenrein.

Journalists, particularly on BBC TV news programs, reported the Palestinian accusation that while the world was distracted by the war, Israel would expel Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank. Did the expulsions happen? No.

Suppose the positions had been reversed. Does anyone doubt that the extremists led by Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the Al Aksa Martyrs Brigade, the armed wing of Arafat’s Fatah party, would have expelled the Jews they didn’t murder from all of Israel?

Would the neighboring Arab leaders – King Abdullah of Jordan, King Fahd of Saudi Arabia, President Bashar Assad of Syria and President Lahoud of Lebanon – have denounced the Palestinian actions? I doubt it.

Would the French have sent troops to prevent it? I doubt it.

Look at what Arab governments did when they had the power to impose their will on dissenting Arabs they believed were threats to them.

In the Syrian city of Hama, home to opponents to the regime of former dictator Hafez al-Assad, an estimated 10,000 men, women and children were put to death by Assad’s forces and the city razed to the ground.

Under King Hussein’s reign in Jordan, in an action referred to by the PLO as “Black September,” the PLO was driven out of Jordan and 5,000 of its members were killed.

In Iraq, Saddam Hussein murdered 5,000 Iraqi Kurds, using poison gas which left thousands more crippled for life.

Regardless of what some Palestinian leaders now say about a two-state solution, you can be sure that the threat to Israel’s existence will persist. Palestinians and their supporters in the 22 other Arab states are enraged when Israel is referred to as a Jewish state. To his credit, President Bush has used that description when referring to Israel.

The majority of Palestinians, and millions of Arabs in other countries, want Israel replaced with a single Muslim state comprised of all of historic Palestine.

Immediately after President Bush, Prime Minister Sharon, Prime Minister Abbas and King Abdullah met in Aqaba, Jordan, four Israeli soldiers were killed in Gaza with Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Al Aksa Martyrs Brigade jointly taking credit. When Israel responded by targeting Abdel Rantisi – regrettably, only wounding him – denunciations of Sharon were made around the world.

The complaints were that he should have waited and given Abbas an opportunity to deal with Hamas and the other terrorist organizations, even though Abbas had said he would not use force against his fellow Palestinians to stop their terrorist acts.

How long should Sharon have waited? A week? A month? We can debate whether reprisals by the Israeli army have kept terrorist incidents down, but it is not unreasonable to believe that allowing Hamas and others to celebrate their murderous deeds with impunity only encourages more terrorist acts.

Prime Minister Sharon has agreed that if the violence and terrorism end, the targeting of those who engaged in past acts of terror and planning new attacks will likewise cease.

It will then be up to the negotiators to deal with the issue of how best to treat perpetrators of terrorist acts, as they delve into such other thorny issues as the right of return, Jerusalem, demilitarization of the Palestinian state, and final borders.

Sending U.S. troops to the region will not advance the cause of peace. Only confidence-building actions by the two parties to the conflict, supported by the U.S. and the rest of the world, particularly the Arab world, can

[kramadas]

More right-wing crap!

Palestinians - evil

Israel - oh so good!

[igloo]

Originally posted by raver_mania

More right-wing crap!

Palestinians - evil

Israel - oh so good!

Simple question....Do the Palestinians and Arabs recognize Israel's right to exist?

[skince55]

Originally posted by raver_mania

More right-wing crap!

Palestinians - evil

Israel - oh so good!

Don't mock the fact that they are insinuating that Palestinians are evil cause they are. Isreal not sharing any blame....that is a different story. But each side approached the conflict in two different manners and that is why they are percieved the way they are today. Terrorism is not smiled upon therefore we tend have sympathy for Isreal.

Palestinians = terrorists

terrorists = evil

Don't say they are not terrorists or it is just Hamas because I remeber very distinctly watching on 9/11 the palestinians dancing in the streets thanking allah for what had just happened. I can never forget that and I would never side with these people. They are low life scumbags. We would never do that if the same thing happened to them.

[bigpoppanils]

Originally posted by skince55

Don't say they are not terrorists or it is just Hamas because I remeber very distinctly watching on 9/11 the palestinians dancing in the streets thanking allah for what had just happened. I can never forget that and I would never side with these people. They are low life scumbags. We would never do that if the same thing happened to them.

for the last goddamn time....that footage was 10 years old

[kramadas]

Originally posted by skince55

Don't mock the fact that they are insinuating that Palestinians are evil cause they are. Isreal not sharing any blame....that is a different story. But each side approached the conflict in two different manners and that is why they are percieved the way they are today. Terrorism is not smiled upon therefore we tend have sympathy for Isreal.

Palestinians = terrorists

terrorists = evil

Don't say they are not terrorists or it is just Hamas because I remeber very distinctly watching on 9/11 the palestinians dancing in the streets thanking allah for what had just happened. I can never forget that and I would never side with these people. They are low life scumbags. We would never do that if the same thing happened to them.

I love how we like to lump allll Palestinians as terrorists!

Look the fact is, neither you nor I are over there, and so do not know the whole situation. There have been scattered reports from independent journalists there, that the IDF quite often fires without warning or provocation...we, sitting here half way across the world do not know the whole truth, and thus are in no position to judge anything.

Again, I'm amazed how people can have an aversion to a whole people because of the acts of a few fundamentalists. Offer them something more, and they'll take.

Igloo - last I heard, Hamas' demand of Israel was to withdraw occupation forces...I have not heard, recently, any demand to dissolve the state. So, yes, I will say that most, not all, but most, Arab countries do see the right of Israel to exist.

Whats happening over there is occupation, plain and simple.

[skince55]

Originally posted by bigpoppanils

for the last goddamn time....that footage was 10 years old

Try for the first goddamn time. Just cause you said it before doesn't meen I heard it before

Regardless, Is that even proven or should I just take your word on it considering your views are sooooo impartial?

If it is proven I stand corrected, but otherwise keep your accusations to yourself

[kramadas]

One thing though - if this administration truly creates peace in the ME, my opinion of Bush just might have to change.

[skince55]

Originally posted by raver_mania

One thing though - if this administration truly creates peace in the ME, my opinion of Bush just might have to change.

I don't think that is going to happen anytime soon.

[igloo]

Originally posted by raver_mania

.

Igloo - last I heard, Hamas' demand of Israel was to withdraw occupation forces...I have not heard, recently, any demand to dissolve the state. So, yes, I will say that most, not all, but most, Arab countries do see the right of Israel to exist.

Whats happening over there is occupation, plain and simple.

Arab govts still refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist in terms of formal statements---which has significant meaning---

Iran will not recognize Israel's right to exist---and their Supreme Council issued a formal statement that Israel must be destroyed

Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hizbelloh do not recognize Israel's right to exist....they do not just consider Gaza and the West Bank occupied territory, but all of Israel

A recent survey (I saw it on TV) indicated that the majority of Palestinians want peace with Israel, but still do not recognize the Israelis state...

Palestinian school books, and religious schools teach hatred of Israel and deny their right to exist (this of course in most Muslim countries)

It is amazing how too many people seem to forget recent history...how some of these "occupied" lands became "occupied"

lands

Now, I am not dismissing the fact that this conflict is sophisticated, deep-rooted, and complex......because it is, and I do not know if anyone has an answer to solve this....both sides also have made major mistakes....

But to simply dismiss homicidal terrorism with the word "occupation" is ridiculous.....

What is happening over there is pure terrorism by the Palestinian groups and their Arab govt supporters (less Saddam Hussein now)

[sassa]

first of all, zionism is what they're against, which a large majority of european jews claimed to be during the building of present day israel. they have had jews in the region prior to all these immigrants who arrived from europe and the middle east for hundreds, if not thousands of years before. they do not have a problem with judaism, but with zionism........

their quran teaches them to respect the peoples of all the books of God, including the peoples of jesus and moses, who are considered prophets...so from that religious perspective, it is wrong. what fundamentalists do is take the meaning of the book in very different ways than do most moderate muslims. same would go for the kkk, who interpret the bible in such a way that they would consider themselves god's only people on earth. same goes for jews. supposedly a few days ago israeli hardcore right-wing settlers in the west bank are fighting the IDF for not allowing them to barricade palestinian towns. this shit has gone too far. those people really do NOT have a right to settle in those lands. they have been inhabited by palestinians for more than a thousand years. just because these jews claim their heritage in this land does not give them the right to go there, invade towns, bulldoze homes, kill people, and flatten crops and trees, because they want to make a jewish state. 'jewish manifest destiny' was a goal that many right-wing jews wanted to achieve during the 70's-80's. they still do today.

also, many of these supposed jews are not even jewish ethnically. judaism is a religion, while the jewish people are semitic, cousins of the arabs. many aryan nomads from the khazar kingdom converted to judaism, claimed it as their religion/way of life...most became descendents of modern day "ashkenazi" jews. if anyone knows anything about israel, it's that there are two kinds of jews:

1) ashkenazi- 'white', european based, fair, 'aristocratic' jews...

2) sephardic- 'sfaradim'= spanish in hebrew=what most jews hailing from south america, the middle east, north africa are known as...these are the true jews from the middle east...

there is something much larger going on than all this, of course...but this is not only an issue of asserting one's claim to their ancestral land, that is for sure...

on the other hand, palestinians are descendents supposedly of the philistines, who lived primarly in the area they're in now from syria to lebanon...

in essence, both groups have a right to be there. but the jewish thing is a bit different. zionism is being made an excuse for extreme jews to populate the land. notice jews never attempted to return to their land before zionism was created in basil, switzerland.

finally, one might want to check the link between jews, ancient christianity, and the freemasons....

[igloo]

Originally posted by sassa

first of all, zionism is what they're against, which a large majority of european jews claimed to be during the building of present day israel. they have had jews in the region prior to all these immigrants who arrived from europe and the middle east for hundreds, if not thousands of years before. they do not have a problem with judaism, but with zionism........

their quran teaches them to respect the peoples of all the books of God, including the peoples of jesus and moses, who are considered prophets...so from that religious perspective, it is wrong. what fundamentalists do is take the meaning of the book in very different ways than do most moderate muslims. same would go for the kkk, who interpret the bible in such a way that they would consider themselves god's only people on earth. same goes for jews. supposedly a few days ago israeli hardcore right-wing settlers in the west bank are fighting the IDF for not allowing them to barricade palestinian towns. this shit has gone too far. those people really do NOT have a right to settle in those lands. they have been inhabited by palestinians for more than a thousand years. just because these jews claim their heritage in this land does not give them the right to go there, invade towns, bulldoze homes, kill people, and flatten crops and trees, because they want to make a jewish state. 'jewish manifest destiny' was a goal that many right-wing jews wanted to achieve during the 70's-80's. they still do today.

also, many of these supposed jews are not even jewish ethnically. judaism is a religion, while the jewish people are semitic, cousins of the arabs. many aryan nomads from the khazar kingdom converted to judaism, claimed it as their religion/way of life...most became descendents of modern day "ashkenazi" jews. if anyone knows anything about israel, it's that there are two kinds of jews:

1) ashkenazi- 'white', european based, fair, 'aristocratic' jews...

2) sephardic- 'sfaradim'= spanish in hebrew=what most jews hailing from south america, the middle east, north africa are known as...these are the true jews from the middle east...

there is something much larger going on than all this, of course...but this is not only an issue of asserting one's claim to their ancestral land, that is for sure...

on the other hand, palestinians are descendents supposedly of the philistines, who lived primarly in the area they're in now from syria to lebanon...

in essence, both groups have a right to be there. but the jewish thing is a bit different. zionism is being made an excuse for extreme jews to populate the land. notice jews never attempted to return to their land before zionism was created in basil, switzerland.

finally, one might want to check the link between jews, ancient christianity, and the freemasons....

I appreciate this data but you are missing the point-- like I said both sides have made mistakes, and like I have said, the issue is complex, deep-rooted, and comprehensive......and you can talk all you want about Judiasm, Zionsim, types of Jews, history of Palestine.......BUT

At the end of the day, one side does not recognize the State of Israel, and an element of the one side wants Israel destroyed....

That is the bottom line....and it is that simple....peal back the sophistication of this issue, and that is at the core of the problem

And until the Palestinian people reject what is being taught in schools and religious sermons, and reject the ideology of the terror groups, and prove that they truly want peace and a homeland.....there will never be peace......

Unless of course Israel is allowed to destroy Hamas and company once and for all.......and Arafat the Fraud...

ps...Please don't lecture what the Quran preaches....quite frankly I am sick of hearing it....

Take your story to the mullahs in Iran, the supreme clerics in Mecca, the Wahhabi's in Saudi schools, and the imans in Pakistani madrassas....

[sassa]

Originally posted by igloo

I appreciate this data but you are missing the point-- like I said both sides have made mistakes, and like I have said, the issue is complex, deep-rooted, and comprehensive......and you can talk all you want about Judiasm, Zionsim, types of Jews, history of Palestine.......BUT

At the end of the day, one side does not recognize the State of Israel, and an element of the one side wants Israel destroyed....

That is the bottom line....and it is that simple....peal back the sophistication of this issue, and that is at the core of the problem

And until the Palestinian people reject what is being taught in schools and religious sermons, and reject the ideology of the terror groups, and prove that they truly want peace and a homeland.....there will never be peace......

Unless of course Israel is allowed to destroy Hamas and company once and for all.......and Arafat the Fraud...

ps...Please don't lecture what the Quran preaches....quite frankly I am sick of hearing it....

Take your story to the mullahs in Iran, the supreme clerics in Mecca, the Wahhabi's in Saudi schools, and the imans in Pakistani madrassas....

for a second, you were doing good, then you had to fuck it all up with the last comment....

[kramadas]

Igloo - I understand what you're saying and I agree, but, there are also elements in the Israeli govt that does not want a Palestinian state, and frankly does not recognize the right of such a state. Thats why there was such an uproar in Sharon's party when he finally mentioned a "Palestinian state".

Basically both sides have elements that want the destruction of the other side. Until these, whether terrorists or politicians, or right-wing settlers, are rooted out there can be little chance of peace.

[igloo]

Originally posted by sassa

for a second, you were doing good, then you had to fuck it all up with the last comment....

First off, you are not in a position to comment whether "someone is doing good"......

Secondly, I think my last statement is COMPLETELY on point....if you can not see my point, or grasp the meaning of my statement, or do not see the REAL-WORLD relevance of my statement, ...then your head is further up ass than previously thought..

For someone who always is preaching that other peeps need to "open their eyes", you certainly should take a long, hard look in the mirror

[sassa]

Originally posted by igloo

First off, you are not in a position to comment whether "someone is doing good"......

Secondly, I think my last statement is COMPLETELY on point....if you can not see my point, or grasp the meaning of my statement, or do not see the REAL-WORLD relevance of my statement, ...then your head is further up ass than previously thought..

For someone who always is preaching that other peeps need to "open their eyes", you certainly should take a long, hard look in the mirror

i disagree....

[igloo]

Originally posted by raver_mania

Igloo - I understand what you're saying and I agree, but, there are also elements in the Israeli govt that does not want a Palestinian state, and frankly does not recognize the right of such a state. Thats why there was such an uproar in Sharon's party when he finally mentioned a "Palestinian state".

Basically both sides have elements that want the destruction of the other side. Until these, whether terrorists or politicians, or right-wing settlers, are rooted out there can be little chance of peace.

Agreed, and sad....

But I do think right now is the most realistic shot at peace than there ever was......and the ripple effect of peace there would be enormous........

[igloo]

Originally posted by sassa

i disagree....

What a shock ....appeaser.....wake up moron

[sassa]

Originally posted by igloo

What a shock ....appeaser.....wake up moron

funny, i keep thinking the same thing about you.

i'd rather commit seppuku than think like you...