Israelis Refuse to Carry Out Airstrikes

[mrmatas2277]

By KARIN LAUB, Associated Press Writer

JERUSALEM - A group of reserve air force pilots drew condemnation Thursday for refusing to carry out airstrikes in Palestinian areas, but their unprecedented protest set off an emotional debate on the ethics of the targeted killings of militants.

Pilots are held in the highest regard in Israel and their views carry considerable weight, since their skill and audacity are seen as key to the country's survival.

Several hundred Israelis have refused to serve in the West Bank and Gaza in recent years, and there have been protests such as last weekend's Tel Aviv rally in which several thousand called for ending the occupation of the areas. But Israelis generally support the military's actions as needed to curb terror attacks, and no major anti-war movement has emerged.

Wednesday's signed declaration condemning the airstrikes shook the nation and also raised new questions about the limits of protest in the military. The air force commander, Maj. Gen. Dan Halutz, said the signatories would be punished — possibly jailed — and accused them of playing politics rather than grappling with genuine moral dilemmas.

The group of 27 is informally led by Brig. Gen. Yiftah Spector, a highly decorated retired pilot who, according to Israeli media reports, participated in the bombing of the Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1981.

Nine of the pilots are still on active duty.

In their petition, the pilots said airstrikes on crowded Palestinian areas are "illegal and immoral." They also condemn Israel's continued occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, saying it corrupts Israeli society.

In the past three years of fighting, Israeli pilots have carried out hundreds of airstrikes in the West Bank and Gaza Strip (news - web sites), targeting Palestinian police installations and weapons workshops of militants.

The most controversial of the airstrikes involve targeted killings, in which helicopters — and sometimes warplanes — fire rockets and bombs at cars and homes of Palestinian militants.

In the past three years, some 140 wanted men have been killed in targeted raids, not all of them airstrikes, according to Palestinian medical officials, though the figure also includes those killed resisting arrest. More than 100 bystanders have also died, according to the medical officials.

The Israeli public, traumatized by a Palestinian suicide bombing campaign that has killed hundreds of civilians since September 2000, largely supports the army's tough measures, including the targeted killings, widely referred to in Hebrew as "liquidations."

The rebel pilots were lambasted Thursday in commentary in newspapers and radio talk shows. Critics accused the pilots of being immature, naive or having a secret political agenda.

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (news - web sites) was quoted as saying the protest was a "grave matter" and would be dealt with swiftly. Former Israeli President Ezer Weizman, who commanded the air force in the 1960s, said the pilots' stance was immoral, and belittled their apparent idealism as a "holier-than-thou attitude."

Veteran journalist Dan Margalit wrote in a front-page commentary in the Maariv daily that the pilots abused their exalted standing.

"If their idea is accepted, Ahmed Yassin and his compatriots in the Hamas leadership will be able to plan the next murder of Jewish children on a Jerusalem bus without interference," Margalit wrote in a reference to a mid-August bus bombing by Hamas that killed 23 bus passengers, six of them children.

In response to that bombing, Israel accelerated its targeted attacks, killing 13 Hamas members and six bystanders in nearly a dozen airstrikes in Gaza City. Yassin, the Hamas founder and spiritual leader, himself survived an attack earlier this month.

The letter of protest marked the first time pilots have come out openly against air force policy. In the 1982 invasion of Lebanon, some pilots expressed reservations about bombing cities and refugee camps, but did not go public.

Halutz, the air force commander, played down the importance of the protest, saying the pilots were only a handful among thousands.

"Refusal shouldn't be an issue in our army, especially not if we didn't ask these people to do anything immoral or illegal as they said in the letter," Halutz said.

However, some warned the protest could spread because of growing unease in the armed forces over military strikes that have failed to stop terror attacks.

"Today, in light of pointless military operations ... people are beginning to ask questions," wrote military commentator Alex Fishman in the Yediot Ahronot daily. "And these (the pilots) are the very best people we have. We can ground them, and we can lock them up, but we cannot ignore the questions they ask."

Col. Uri Dromi, another air force reservist, added that "when the time comes, say, to remove settlers from their homes, other people in the army or in the air force will say they don't want to obey these orders in the same way."

"So once you start this, there is an erosion of the rule of law here of the whole democratic elements of the regime, and this is the end of the democratic structure in Israel," Dromi said.

Yediot said dozens of Apache helicopter pilots, who carry out the bulk of the airstrikes, have met with their wing commander to express their concerns. One participant said he was not convinced of the justice of his missions, Yediot said, and others complained that they were given bad intelligence that could endanger civilians.

The rebel pilots could not be reached for comment Thursday, but Lt. Col. Zeev Rotem, a retired combat navigator speaking on their behalf, said the norms of the air force have changed in recent years.

"Today, we attack places where there are civilians, women and children, with the prior knowledge that ... there is a great chance they will be killed," Rotem told Israel Radio. The protest, he said, is a desperate attempt "to make the army, the government and the citizens ... stop this crazy cycle that has hijacked this country."

A watershed, for some pilots, apparently was last year's attack on Salah Shehadeh, leader of the Hamas military wing. A one-ton bomb killed Shehadeh, an assistant and also 14 civilians, nine of them children.

Halutz said at the time that he felt the bombing was morally correct.

[g420]

Bunch of idiots but since 9 of the pilots are still on active duty, it really makes no difference.

As much as I disagree with the pilots it illustrates that the Israeli's have some morals that prevent them from bombing "civilians" (who are being used a human shiled by hamas ), as opposed to the arabs, you'll never see a headline "palestinians refuse to carry out homocide bombings on school buses"

[kramadas]

dp

[kramadas]

Originally posted by g420

Bunch of idiots but since 9 of the pilots are still on active duty, it really makes no difference.

As much as I disagree with the pilots it illustrates that the Israeli's have some morals that prevent them from bombing "civilians" (who are being used a human shiled by hamas ), as opposed to the arabs, you'll never see a headline "palestinians refuse to carry out homocide bombings on school buses"

There's a big difference, when you have the luxury of a rich economy, an airforce, and basic human rights to protest such things. Not so for most Palestinians, who have been oppressed, subjagaged to horrendous curfews, and sometimes inhumane treatment by the IDF.

Maybe, you don't read a variety of sources (debkafiles does not qualify as an unbiased source) but there are plenty of Palestinians who're tired of the continuing cycle of violence. There have also been protests (I think I read one article) but unfortunately, such things are not documented by our media.

Its funny - anyone who does not believe in what you believe is an "idiot"!

[breakbeatz2]

regardless of position (which is absolutely NOT an excuse for doing anything horribly immoral) he has a a great point since you never do hear palestinians protest sicide bombings. in fact, suicide bombings (including Sept 11) are celebrated in the streets

I think this is an excelent example of how different the two peoples are (Israelis and Palestinians)

oh, and two say one people has a better economy so they have the comfort to protest. HAHAHAHA. wow, are you listening to yourself? Oh wait, i just lost my job and have no money, i'm going to go kill a bunch of guys and say, but i DONT have the COMFORT to not do that. HAHAHAHA your point is as ridiculous as it gets

[xpyrate]

I think we should just drop the "Holy Land" in the middle of the deepest part of the Atlantic ocean and just say "You want your stinkin' Holy Land go get it!"

[kramadas]

Originally posted by breakbeatz2

regardless of position (which is absolutely NOT an excuse for doing anything horribly immoral) he has a a great point since you never do hear palestinians protest sicide bombings. in fact, suicide bombings (including Sept 11) are celebrated in the streets

I think this is an excelent example of how different the two peoples are (Israelis and Palestinians)

oh, and two say one people has a better economy so they have the comfort to protest. HAHAHAHA. wow, are you listening to yourself? Oh wait, i just lost my job and have no money, i'm going to go kill a bunch of guys and say, but i DONT have the COMFORT to not do that. HAHAHAHA your point is as ridiculous as it gets

Firstly, you must be one of the few ignorant that does not know that the cheering of the children displayed after Sept 11 was not in the context of that terrorist attack. I believe there were posts regarding that right after the terrorist attacks. I'm not going to waste my time looking for them - you can do that, but you probably won't since your beliefs are so ingrained in you, that any contradictory news would only be seen as "biased".

Secondly, I guess your intelligence level does not permit you to see the point I was trying to make. If you've lost your job, have no money, have your house razed by the IDF (there are many houses not related to suicide bombers that have been destroyed), your crops leveled to make way for some fence, your family killed as "collateral damage" (or even on purpose), and have to endure humiliation...by the same people standing right in front of you, then it would be a wonder if you could hold on to your sanity. Do you have any kids? Imagine watching your 3 year old daughter die of a seizure, but are unable to take her to a hospital because of some bullshit curfew.

And on top of this, many Palestinians do refrain from strapping bombs to themselves and blowing themselves up. There is such a thing as silent disapproval. Additionally, I've seen news snippets on BBC, jpost and haaretz.com, where interviewed Palestinians wish for nothing more than peace, and a stop to killings.

If you are truly interested in a wider perspective, keep an eye on those papers. But then, maybe you're not - its just so much easier to demonize a whole people, and have everything cut out in black and white, isn't it. Its people like you who are responsible for letting conflicts like this go on.

[xpyrate]

I've seen news stories about IDF troops posing for pictures and smiling while celebrating the deaths of Palastinians they have just killed. I have also been on other messy boards that Pro-Israeli people cheer the deaths of Palastinians. Even Palastinian children, such as "Good ridance [X #] of future terrorists killed."

So you my good friend breakbeat that it does go both ways.

[tribal]

im relentlessly waiting for a time, when a member of Hamas, IJ or even arafat's own tanzim will stand up and say "Bombing women and children in cold blood is immoral. Shooting babies in the face is immoral. Raising your children with bomb belts and nazi stereotypes is immoral. Hijacking planes, buses and schools is immoral. "

i have an eternity to wait, because if any reasonable and sane person in the Palestinian society were to say that, they would be killed.

[kramadas]

Originally posted by tribal

i have an eternity to wait, because if any reasonable and sane person in the Palestinian society were to say that, they would be killed.

Israel has stopped only a couple of levels below that. They've warned of "severe consequences" if the pilots do not apologize for their views. Not really being given freedom to express their views.

Again, I'll mention I've come across interviews on BBC and such (not CNN) where interviewed Palestinians have wished for nothing but a stop to the killings. Guess that doesn't sink in - the Palestinians are just a bunch of animals, not worth the air they're breathing, right?

[kramadas]

While we're on the subject of children being killed...

Boy, 14, shot in the back in renewed Israeli incursions that leave six dead

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=393785

Eight Palestinians killed in Israeli raid were unarmed civilians, says UN inquiry

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=362275

Israeli troops kill girl in gun battle on Gaza border

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=363108

Israeli troops shoot dead second child in two days

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=365215

[kramadas]

Israel and the Occupied Territories: An ongoing human rights crisis

From Amnesty international's website...

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/isr-index-eng

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engmde150812003

But then, since Amnesty international actually recognizes the sorry plight the normal Palestinian finds himself in, the whole organization must be anti-semitic.

[cintron]

I'm glad the pilots are strong enough to act on their conscience but in their society, they're going to pay heavily for it.

Israel's air force is a HUGE reason why that country is still around today. There's a level of trust that goes beyond anything we know.

and i'm sure no member of Hamas or Islamic Jihad is sitting back and thinking "wow, those guys are right. we should stop this."

[tribal]

While we're on the subject of children being killed...

it is rather obvious that you have absolutely no concept of the reality in the territories. your links and weak attemps to portray the Israeli army and various palestinian terror groups as equals are illogical and make very little sense. let me explain it to you this way.

the IDF is operating in those territories right now, ONLY due to the actions of the terrorists, who kill civilians on purpose and with an established intent. they are murderers, people whose intent is to kill as many civilians as possible, by various actions like sniper attacks and suicide bombs.

The IDF, like any professional and humanitarian army in the world has rigourous standards, laws and regulations regarding the killing of non-combatants. all the links that youve posted are oriented in a combat zone, where civilians will die due to the heavy fighting, NOT because IDF wishes to kill them, but because they are caught in a middle of a war. if you can not comprehend this very simple and obvious difference between the two sides, im afraid i cannot help you, nor talk to you as one reasonable individual to another. but even if i were to tap into your delirious and inane logic, even if the Israeli army wanted to kill Palestinian civilians, as you so vocally have tried to demonstrate, there would not be one civilian left, because Israel has a powerful conventional army, rather than a squad of suicide terrorists.

i spoke to many israeli soldiers and only one pictures emerges. they all operate under the extreme pressure of palestinian terrorism and Israeli liberal democratic values. I have never, ever, seen nor spoke to an IDF soldier who purposely or gleefully killed an arab civilian.

one more point id like to mention before i leave this circle jerk of disinformation. the IAF pilots who refused to perform their duty were not killed, nor were they jailed, beaten or abused, unlike people in the Palestinian authority. the pilots were taken off their positions and were withdrawn from the air core. legally, they had no right to did what they did, while wearing the Israeli Air Force uniform, and the same thing would have happened to them if they served the USAF. as a civilian, you have a freedom of speech under the Israeli and American law. As a military professional, it is unethical and dangerous to not follow your duty and refuse to serve your country. believe me, these pilots are not seen as heores in the eyes of an average Israeli. the entire issue was very hyped up by the virulently anti-israeli european press.

[kramadas]

tribal - whatever dude. You're as good at putting the blinders over your eyes as any who would refuse to even contemplate the other side's views. Regarding your point about the IDF killing every civilian if they wanted to - do you think they're stupid. Do you think, even if they wanted to, that they would be commit that kind of suicide on the world stage? Even the US would have to withdraw support if that happened. No, its much better to take them off bit by bit, and make life so unbearable for them that they're forced to leave.

Why did Sharon refuse to accept the roadmap? Why did he refuse to stop expanding and building settlements? Why is that fence annexing many many acres of Palestinian land? If there really are going to be "peace talks" then hold off on that fence, because once it goes up, its not coming down.

No, what you don't want to even think about is the possibility that Sharon might not want peace at this moment.

If you wish to leave this "circle jerk of disinformation" as you stated, then please do. I've posted links to another board where people from Israel proper are expressing their views, and I have to say, that its a lot more even-handed than the views of one such as you who lives here.

How many IDF soldiers did you talk to? Are they your best buddies? Even if they didn't care that much for the Palestinians, do you really think they'd tell you, an American, that? Did the people you talk to represent the majority of the IDF?

Dropping bombs on crowded streets and apartment buildings - very humane, no?

[kramadas]

In a similar vein, the situation in Iraq and ISrael are somewhat the same (not saying they are the same but that they bear many similarities).

I understand the difference is, one group are a bunch of terrorists, and the other guerilla fighters, but in both cases ISrael and the US are occuppying forces, who are under pressure to route out these terrorists/fighters. However, I do not see US forces dropping bombs and missiles in crowded areas to try kill the militants, nor do I see them destroying houses(with or without people still in them) in an effort to punish the militants. Additionally, I don't see them punishing the whole Vvillage/town (guilty by association?) by shutting the whole place down and imposing indefinite curfews.