France is clearly turning into an enemy

[igloo]

French Fried: France turns into even bigger foe

Jonah Goldberg (archive)

October 24, 2003 | Print | Send

I was wrong about France.

No, no, this isn't prelude to an apology for being the earliest and biggest popularizer of the Simpsons' nom de French: "cheese-eating surrender monkeys." Rather, what I was wrong about is that the French are even worse than I thought.

I had predicted in September of 2002 that the French would ultimately fall into line with the United States on the Iraq war. My rationale was that French recalcitrance had less to do with principle and more to do with a combinations of interests: a need to protect French oil contracts; a desire to conceal French complicity in the Hussein regime; a desire to enlarge the power of the United Nations, which would in turn amplify French influence in the world; and, of course, a certain cultural joy de vivre in soiling America's Corn Flakes whenever possible.

But once it was clear that America would invade Iraq with or without them, I predicted, the French would fall in line so they could be in on the postwar action.

They never did, obviously. America, Britain and Australia went to war. The French went to the cafes.

Actually, they did worse than that. The French lobbied African nations to vote against America in the U.N. They threatened fledgling Eastern European nations that support for America might mean trouble with the E.U. They threw numerous monkey wrenches into diplomatic machinery so it would be impossible to gain international support.

Indeed, as Thomas Friedman of The New York Times has noted, those shenanigans might have made war more likely because the French didn't want the U.N. to level a serious ultimatum against Saddam.

Now, I don't want to revisit the whole issue of France, a country we liberated and rebuilt, not only NOT supporting us in a time of need but actually actively campaigning against us. Either you're ticked off about that or you're not.

Oh, and spare me the references to the post 9-11 Le Monde headline that declared "We Are All Americans." Not only did the text of that very article, written by Le Monde's publisher, criticize America for its "cynicism" but by December of 2001 - more than a year before the Iraq war - the author was already denouncing America as racist, fundamentalist, death-hungry, etc.

Anyway, since the French didn't get their way in preventing the war - and there was no way they could have kept us from winning it - they are now fairly determined to see us lose the peace.

At first, they denounced the formation of the Iraqi Governing Council, suggesting it was illegitimate. Then the French and their willing sidekick U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan insisted that power be handed over to the council immediately to initiate the "logic of sovereignty" instead of the "logic of occupation."

The French and the U.N. know that to do this would mean the Lebanonization of Iraq. Bosnia's been occupied - by the United Nations! - for seven years. "Does Kofi Annan," asked Fareed Zakaria of Newsweek, "really think that what took seven years in Bosnia can take one year in Iraq, with six times as many people?"

Of course not. And that's the point.

The aim is for America to fail and if that means Iraq becomes a bloody quagmire that destabilizes the region, well, maybe that's worth it. The notion that the French really care about the innocent people of Iraq is flatly absurd.

Yes, this month the French voted in favor of the U.S.-backed resolution establishing a multinational force under U.S. command. And, all of a sudden, there's silence about the French as if they've come around.

But last month, Friedman wrote in The New York Times, "It's time we Americans came to terms with something: France is not just our annoying ally. It is not just our jealous rival. France is becoming our enemy."

Friedman was right then, which means he's still right now. One U.N. vote - which, by the way, was accompanied by a swift French promise that they'd do nothing to help with the reconstruction - hardly signals a fundamental change in France's desire to hamstring America.

What is astounding is how much of a free pass this one-time ally is getting here in America. Because the war was unpopular with many liberals, it's assumed that France's actions are informed by the same principles as, say, Howard Dean's. I think Dean's positions on the war are scandalously dim-witted and ill-advised. But he still wants what is best for America and even Iraq. It is impossible to say the same thing about France.

[kramadas]

Originally posted by igloo

I think Dean's positions on the war are scandalously dim-witted and ill-advised. But he still wants what is best for America and even Iraq. It is impossible to say the same thing about France.

Obviously France is not going to do whats best for America...its going to look after its own interests. Even the US invasion of Iraq was not primarily for the Iraqis - it was for American interests. Each and every country in this world acts in its own self interest.

[mr mahs]

[igloo]

Originally posted by mr mahs

:laugh:

[igloo]

Originally posted by raver_mania

Obviously France is not going to do whats best for America...its going to look after its own interests. Even the US invasion of Iraq was not primarily for the Iraqis - it was for American interests. Each and every country in this world acts in its own self interest.

Does this mean Russia, France and Germany voted against the war because of their self-interests, not because they care about the Iraqi people or they thought the war was not "justified"....

This could be a shocker for the antiwar peeps who put so much weight into the UN vote.......I mean, blast and condemn the U.S. for acting in their own self interests and acting "unilaterally", but if the Europeans act in their own self interest, that's OK.....Even when it meant that Russia and France self-interests was keeping Saddam Hussein in power.......

But that is in the past, and what's done is done, and we must work again with our "allies" for the betterment of the Iraqi people and to establish a democracy in Iraq that has positive global ramifications for the world......

And France and Germany are putting differences aside with the U.S. and showing they care about rebuilding Iraq, not from war, but decades of abuse by Hussein and crippling sanctions they they supported.....and proof of their concern: Pledging no money.

That's OK. Because the next time the Europeans can't fix a mess in their own backyard or the UN can't stop a civil war, the U.S. will be there once again with troops and money.

[babbo]

Originally posted by igloo

Does this mean Russia, France and Germany voted against the war because of their self-interests, not because they care about the Iraqi people or they thought the war was not "justified"....

This could be a shocker for the antiwar peeps who put so much weight into the UN vote.......I mean, blast and condemn the U.S. for acting in their own self interests and acting "unilaterally", but if the Europeans act in their own self interest, that's OK.....Even when it meant that Russia and France self-interests was keeping Saddam Hussein in power.......

But that is in the past, and what's done is done, and we must work again with our "allies" for the betterment of the Iraqi people and to establish a democracy in Iraq that has positive global ramifications for the world......

And France and Germany are putting differences aside with the U.S. and showing they care about rebuilding Iraq, not from war, but decades of abuse by Hussein and crippling sanctions they they supported.....and proof of their concern: Pledging no money.

That's OK. Because the next time the Europeans can't fix a mess in their own backyard or the UN can't stop a civil war, the U.S. will be there once again with troops and money.

if youve ever spoken directly, to a native/french, still lea

iving in france, about politics, you will leave the conversation, perurbed, and possibly disturbed, about their poliotical, and emotional view, of the issues- they are, in short- FUCKED UP

[normalnoises]

Igloo and MrMahs caught on camera.

[xpyrate]

Originally posted by raver_mania

Obviously France is not going to do whats best for America...its going to look after its own interests. Even the US invasion of Iraq was not primarily for the Iraqis - it was for American interests. Each and every country in this world acts in its own self interest.

Exactly ... that doesn't make France an enemy.

(not referring to river) And y'know just because they surrendered in WW2 doesn't make them pussies, image just going through the hell that was WW1? I don't think you could, in fact I KNOW you couldn't. They didn't want to fight because they had just been through hell and decided to cut their losses and hope for the best. And we didn't "save" them. Without the USSRs and Britians help and the fact that the previously stated countries had worn Germany out, I doubt we would've been able to stand a chance against Hitlers forces ALONE.

[igloo]

Originally posted by xpyrate

Exactly ... that doesn't make France an enemy.

(not referring to river) And y'know just because they surrendered in WW2 doesn't make them pussies, image just going through the hell that was WW1? I don't think you could, in fact I KNOW you couldn't. They didn't want to fight because they had just been through hell and decided to cut their losses and hope for the best. And we didn't "save" them. Without the USSRs and Britians help and the fact that the previously stated countries had worn Germany out, I doubt we would've been able to stand a chance against Hitlers forces ALONE.

You have to be the dumbest, most idiotic schmuck I have ever had the torturous discomfort of coming in contact with.

The back of a Lucky Charms cereal box may be entertaining, but it should not form the foundation of your education.

What is even more remarkable, is that your confidence in your own bullshit equals your idiosy. A dangerous combination.

[mr mahs]

Originally posted by igloo

You have to be the dumbest, most idiotic schmuck I have ever had the torturous discomfort of coming in contact with.

The back of a Lucky Charms cereal box may be entertaining, but it should not form the foundation of your education.

What is even more remarkable, is that your confidence in your own bullshit equals your idiosy. A dangerous combination.

:laugh: Lucky charms box

I really thinks he makes this shit up..

Tell this tool we were at war with JAPAN you would think the name alone WWII would tell him that .. No... France aren't pussies, right. :

[igloo]

Originally posted by mr mahs

:laugh: Lucky charms box

I really thinks he makes this shit up..

Tell this tool we were at war with JAPAN you would think the name alone would would tell him that.. No... France aren't pussies, right. :

I am starting to wonder if this tool is just fucking with us.....there is no way someone could be this dumb and have that much confidence in their idiosy...

[mr mahs]

Originally posted by igloo

I am starting to wonder if this tool is just fucking with us.....there is no way someone could be this dumb and have that much confidence in their idiosy...

WWII alone should tell him we were fighting a MULTI FRONT war.

I just don't get it.

[bigpoppanils]

Originally posted by igloo

French Fried: France turns into even bigger foe

Jonah Goldberg (archive)

October 24, 2003 | Print | Send

I was wrong about France.

No, no, this isn't prelude to an apology for being the earliest and biggest popularizer of the Simpsons' nom de French: "cheese-eating surrender monkeys." Rather, what I was wrong about is that the French are even worse than I thought.

I had predicted in September of 2002 that the French would ultimately fall into line with the United States on the Iraq war. My rationale was that French recalcitrance had less to do with principle and more to do with a combinations of interests: a need to protect French oil contracts; a desire to conceal French complicity in the Hussein regime; a desire to enlarge the power of the United Nations, which would in turn amplify French influence in the world; and, of course, a certain cultural joy de vivre in soiling America's Corn Flakes whenever possible.

But once it was clear that America would invade Iraq with or without them, I predicted, the French would fall in line so they could be in on the postwar action.

They never did, obviously. America, Britain and Australia went to war. The French went to the cafes.

Actually, they did worse than that. The French lobbied African nations to vote against America in the U.N. They threatened fledgling Eastern European nations that support for America might mean trouble with the E.U. They threw numerous monkey wrenches into diplomatic machinery so it would be impossible to gain international support.

Indeed, as Thomas Friedman of The New York Times has noted, those shenanigans might have made war more likely because the French didn't want the U.N. to level a serious ultimatum against Saddam.

Now, I don't want to revisit the whole issue of France, a country we liberated and rebuilt, not only NOT supporting us in a time of need but actually actively campaigning against us. Either you're ticked off about that or you're not.

Oh, and spare me the references to the post 9-11 Le Monde headline that declared "We Are All Americans." Not only did the text of that very article, written by Le Monde's publisher, criticize America for its "cynicism" but by December of 2001 - more than a year before the Iraq war - the author was already denouncing America as racist, fundamentalist, death-hungry, etc.

Anyway, since the French didn't get their way in preventing the war - and there was no way they could have kept us from winning it - they are now fairly determined to see us lose the peace.

At first, they denounced the formation of the Iraqi Governing Council, suggesting it was illegitimate. Then the French and their willing sidekick U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan insisted that power be handed over to the council immediately to initiate the "logic of sovereignty" instead of the "logic of occupation."

The French and the U.N. know that to do this would mean the Lebanonization of Iraq. Bosnia's been occupied - by the United Nations! - for seven years. "Does Kofi Annan," asked Fareed Zakaria of Newsweek, "really think that what took seven years in Bosnia can take one year in Iraq, with six times as many people?"

Of course not. And that's the point.

The aim is for America to fail and if that means Iraq becomes a bloody quagmire that destabilizes the region, well, maybe that's worth it. The notion that the French really care about the innocent people of Iraq is flatly absurd.

Yes, this month the French voted in favor of the U.S.-backed resolution establishing a multinational force under U.S. command. And, all of a sudden, there's silence about the French as if they've come around.

But last month, Friedman wrote in The New York Times, "It's time we Americans came to terms with something: France is not just our annoying ally. It is not just our jealous rival. France is becoming our enemy."

Friedman was right then, which means he's still right now. One U.N. vote - which, by the way, was accompanied by a swift French promise that they'd do nothing to help with the reconstruction - hardly signals a fundamental change in France's desire to hamstring America.

What is astounding is how much of a free pass this one-time ally is getting here in America. Because the war was unpopular with many liberals, it's assumed that France's actions are informed by the same principles as, say, Howard Dean's. I think Dean's positions on the war are scandalously dim-witted and ill-advised. But he still wants what is best for America and even Iraq. It is impossible to say the same thing about France.

i guess this author has easily forgotten all the military and financial support France has given us in Afghanistan.

as fpr the "french are pussies" comments.....France is militarily intervening in 2 bloody civil wars at the moment (Congo and Ivory Coast).

[igloo]

Originally posted by bigpoppanils

i guess this author has easily forgotten all the military and financial support France has given us in Afghanistan.

as fpr the "french are pussies" comments.....France is militarily intervening in 2 bloody civil wars at the moment (Congo and Ivory Coast).

Take it easy with "all" the military support in Afghanistan...take it easy....besides, aren't you hypocrites saying Afghanistan is failing, the same one under U.N. and NATO control?..

ANd take it easy with defending France as pussies with the Ivory Coast and the Congo...you have it be kidding me...

You are so weak

[mr mahs]

Originally posted by bigpoppanils

France is militarily intervening in 2 bloody civil wars at the moment (Congo and Ivory Coast).

Yeah if the slaughter of thousands while they're there intervening I hope they stay out of Iraq...

[bigpoppanils]

Originally posted by igloo

Take it easy with "all" the military support in Afghanistan...take it easy....besides, aren't you hypocrites saying Afghanistan is failing, the same one under U.N. and NATO control?..

ANd take it easy with defending France as pussies with the Ivory Coast and the Congo...you have it be kidding me...

You are so weak

i guess the wall street journal is weak too then

http://bbs.clubplanet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=167562&highlight=french

[igloo]

Originally posted by mr mahs

Yeah if the slaughter of thousands while they're there intervening I hope they stay out of Iraq...

Amazing that these hypocrties are defending France, and are so blind that they can not see the deadly ramifications of France's actions for US and Iraqi lives....

It is completely absurd for an American to defend France with respects to their behavior......this was not simple disagreement among "allies" or a squabble between friends.....they aggressively and blatantly acted against the U.S.......

And not because they cared for the Iraqi people, or they truly thought the U.S. war was misguided, or whatever other bullshit reason they gave......it was because they saw an opportunity to defend their self interest (keeping Saddam Hussein in power) by using an anti-American platform to somehow elevate their status on the world stage and cater to their growing Muslim population....

If anyone was misguided, it was France.....their actions cost lives, plain and simple...and if people do not see that, you are completely blind........

And anyone who even remotely discounts the fact that Americans saved their asses, and are buried on their soil, is shameless and disgraceful....

The Ivory Coast and Congo?......is bigpopinnails kidding me?..what a fucking joke

[xpyrate]

Originally posted by mr mahs

we were at war with JAPAN

When did I deny we were?

[normalnoises]

Originally posted by mr mahs

Yeah if the slaughter of thousands while they're there intervening I hope they stay out of Iraq...

But it's ok for the US to intervene and slaughter thousands in Iraq?

If you want france to get out of the ivory coast and the congo, then the US should get the fuck out of the afghanistan and the middle east!

[mr mahs]

Originally posted by normalnoises

But it's ok for the US to intervene and slaughter thousands in Iraq?

If you want france to get out of the ivory coast and the congo, then the US should get the fuck out of the afghanistan and the middle east!

Who said anything about them leaving it's aboutbtime they get off they're hands and do something it's just the job that they're doing that I am questioning...

[bigpoppanils]

Originally posted by igloo

Amazing that these hypocrties are defending France, and are so blind that they can not see the deadly ramifications of France's actions for US and Iraqi lives....

It is completely absurd for an American to defend France with respects to their behavior......this was not simple disagreement among "allies" or a squabble between friends.....they aggressively and blatantly acted against the U.S.......

And not because they cared for the Iraqi people, or they truly thought the U.S. war was misguided, or whatever other bullshit reason they gave......it was because they saw an opportunity to defend their self interest (keeping Saddam Hussein in power) by using an anti-American platform to somehow elevate their status on the world stage and cater to their growing Muslim population....

If anyone was misguided, it was France.....their actions cost lives, plain and simple...and if people do not see that, you are completely blind........

And anyone who even remotely discounts the fact that Americans saved their asses, and are buried on their soil, is shameless and disgraceful....

The Ivory Coast and Congo?......is bigpopinnails kidding me?..what a fucking joke

2 questions:

1. why are those two nations a joke?

2. why all your focus on France?

why are you not focusing on Germany and Russia as well?

hell....Russia was a major supplier to the Iraq military... as well as the Ukraine (oh wait...Ukraine is our "ally".....nevermind)

[igloo]

Originally posted by bigpoppanils

2 questions:

1. why are those two nations a joke?

2. why all your focus on France?

why are you not focusing on Germany and Russia as well?

hell....Russia was a major supplier to the Iraq military... as well as the Ukraine (oh wait...Ukraine is our "ally".....nevermind)

(1) Those two nations are not a joke. But using them as a defense for France not being a pussy is a joke, as I already stated--take a reading lesson.

(2) The focus on France, since you have been living under a rock, is because, like I already stated, did not just disagree with their "ally", they proactively and aggressively undermined the U.S. every step of the way. The negative ramifications of this were enormous, and cost lives. Perhaps if you go beyond the headlines on Yahoo news you would have a better understanding of France and their behavior.

BTW--What exactly did France accomplish then, and now, by their position?

Of course, you will avoid the question in typical fashion and probably respond with a weak ass "what did the U.S. accomplish?

For starters, removed a brutal mass murderer who France wanted to keep in power.

Wake up and join reality.

[kramadas]

Because, by France, Russia and Germany following their own interests they didn;t break international law, as blatantly as the US did.

THe US went into Iraq for its own self interest...and France was vehemently against the war for whatever reasons (self interest probably being the biggest reason)...

I really don't see the need or reason to denigrate the French for standing up for their own interests, and refusing to be at the US' beck and call.

[kramadas]

Saddam was still a brutal mass murderer in the 80's when the US was supporting him. At that time, it was in the US' self interest to support him and so he stayed in power.

[bigpoppanils]

Originally posted by igloo

[b(2) The focus on France, since you have been living under a rock, is because, like I already stated, did not just disagree with their "ally", they proactively and aggressively undermined the U.S. every step of the way. The negative ramifications of this were enormous, and cost lives. Perhaps if you go beyond the headlines on Yahoo news you would have a better understanding of France and their behavior.

.

following your logic....so did Germany and Russia. why are you just attacking france?