kramadas Posted October 1 Report Share Posted October 1 I was going to respond to this and couldn't find the thread initially - hehe...should have known it would be in drama....anyway, my reply below the italics (your post). What up Raver...On point #1, that is not necessarily true...even the 9/11 commission stated that there was NO evidence that any undo pressure was placed on CIA sources to falsely point to Iraqi WMD. That is absolutely false to say anyone was pressured--despite what the occasional anonymous "CIA" source may claim in a Wash Post or NY Times article--I think we all know how those "leaks" work for both sides.The fact is Tenet said it was a "slam dunk". The fact is that the European Intelligence Services, including France and Germany, all believed he had WMD. The fact is the Russian intelligence services believed he had WMD. And the fact is Arab intelligence services thought he had WMD, with Jordan and Egypt proving intel on the eve of the war of the probability of WMD attack.And of course, the U.N thought he had WMD--even the left's favorite useful idiot Hans Blix believed he had WMD. And let's not forget that 1441 stated that Saddam "DISARM".....There is actually a good chance the U.N. was talking about WMD's there, not AK47s.....And let's not forget that it was incumbent upon the Iraqi regime....not U.N weapons inspectors.....to prove Iraq did not have WMD...which they failed to do......this is fact, not newspaper headline spin or anti-Bush rhetoric.....if he had no WMD, and destroyed the KNOWN stockpiles he had since inspectors were kicked out in 1998, Iraq shoud have PROVED it....the dismantling of WMD requires protocols, procedures, and documentation....none of which was provided by Iraq when given THEIR FINAL CHANCE...If he did not have WMD, then we are talking about a massive intelligence failure, and a brilliant job of Saddam Hussein duping the world......and if he did have them, a massive intelligence failure to locate where they went, or when they were destroyed during the run-up to the war....those with selective memory do tend to forget how long how military was building up and the UN was debating bullshit...amazing If you want to hold the administration accountable for not finding WMD for LEGITIMATE reasons (intelligence failure), that is fine.......but to go down the path of Bush lied, or Bush mislead, or Bush pressured the CIA, or any of that other bullshit is wrong, inacurate, and not credible.....On your point #2, your ironic point of Saddam Hussein controlling terrorism within in his borders is true.........Interesting quandry for the U.S, I guess......support the dictators and oppressive regimes in the region because they are strong enough to provide "stability" and maintain the "status quo"....and of course, take the blame from the blame America crowd for helping to create the environment that leads to "why they hate us" (even though the issue is much more complex than that)....Or realize that in a post 9/11 world, the status quo simply does not work for the future peace of the region, the U.S. and the world---and take down one of the regions' biggest threats to the U.S......the one that did not adhere to the 1991 ceasefire agreement, the one that tried assassinating President Bush (not just "Daddy", but a U.S. former President), the one that did not adhere to a decade of sanctions, the one that shot at our planes every day in the no-fly zones, the one that supported terrorists, and the one that Clinton signed the Iraqi Liberation ACt of 1998.....BTW-if Saddam was not a threat, why sign this bill?Raver..I have posted solid, credible evidence of Saddam Hussein and his links to terrorists (just an excellent one yesterday)......of course they are ignored by the Bush haters and the blind.....but the bottom line is you are not going to find a picture of Bin Laden and Saddam together surfing on clubplanet.com laughing at the useful idiots like mursa...The harboring of Abu Nidal and one of the terrorists from the first WTC bombing can not be ignored. The harboring of Zarqawi BEFORE the war, and the establishment of his network in Iraq can not be ignored. Salman Pak and how and who used it can not be ignored. Ansar al Islam can not be ignored. Yes, they were set up in a Kurdish area, but the Iraqi regime and that group had a mutual enemy, and there were significant ties bewteen Ansar and Iraqi intelligence, and it is well documented. EVen the 9/11 commission documented ties bewteen Iraq and Al Qaeda, with the caveat that is was not "operational". Why would Saddam Hussein EVER leave a substantial trail..........those tricky state sponsors, their intelligence services, and terrorist groups---how dare they try and make it hard to prove of their relationships....don't they know that does not fit into the Hollywood minds of America's useful idiots (then again, I bet they do)...There are legitimate reasons to have been against the war that are worth debate, and there are legitimate reasons to be disgusted with this administrations post war planning.........but to go down the Bush lied about WMD path, or to claim Iraq did not have terroists ties, is simply not credible.....--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Actually I'm not of the camp that Bush lied - however, I'm not going to entirely disbelieve the possibility that there was a "pressure" to take out Saddam, and not for revenge, or shit like that. I think the reasons have been mentioned before - one of the biggest being to put pressure on Iran. My biggest beef with the administration is that they need to be held accountable for their intelligence failure - they need to be held accountable for taking the nation into an increasingly ugly war based on faulty intelligence. And there is no doubt that this war is on its way to hell. Just last night I was talking to a friend of mine in the army (he's here because, he's not active duty - right now he teaches ROTC) - he has many close friends in Iraq right now, and some of them say the insurgency, far from being pockets of isolated terrorists, is getting better and better trained. For example, a couple of weeks ago (and this is not stuff you'll see on the news), there was apparently a FIVE hour mortar barrage into the green zone. The guys were apparently so well hidden they couldn't find them. I personally don't know how its possible, maybe they were moving around or something, but thats a hell of a long time to be firing continuous rounds of mortars into the green zone. And in the early days, mortar attacks were just random "shots in the dark", now they fire, re-estimate the distance, fire again closer to target, etc, thereby co-ordinating the attack with "eyes", either inside the zone, or overlooking it. Again, this is word of mouth from a couple of soldiers - there are also soldiers who say things are going well, so I guess it really depends where you are.To tell you the truth, I'm finding it increasingly difficult to keep track of all the documents talking about terrorism in Iraq during Hussein's rule. An article will come out stating ties between Al Queda and Iraq, and then another will come out disproving it. I haven't read the 9/11 report for myself yet, so I'll not comment on that. I did read the article about the "camp" that was located close to Baghdad though. What I do know is he supported the families of Palestinian suicide bombers - however, I do no consider Hamas, Hezbollah, etc a direct threat to the US - its Israel's problem, let them take care of it. Regardless of the reasons for going into the war, I'm glad that you see that the administration royally fucked up with the post-war/reconstruction plan. Its a really messed up situation now...can't leave because that would give terrorists and factions, possibly supported by Iran, free reign of the country, but can't stay for long since thats not really getting us anywhere. People also keep comparing Iraq now to post-war Germany/Japan - I think that comparison is a huge stretch, because of two factors:1) the two countries were almost completely brought to their knees after WWII - they were sick of war, and were ready to move on (more or less). I personally don't know how much resistance there was from the population. 2) Japan and Germany have vastly different cultures than Iraq. The religion, culture, and just the composition of people. Iraq is made up of a hodgepodge of tribes who might not necessarily get along (read civil war). On the other hand, Muslims are fiercely defensive of people of their religion and don't take kindly to outsiders in their region for long. Thus, while there are occupiers on their land, they will unite against them, but after that, unless there is a very strong leader (which Saddam was, albeit extremely brutal), I'm not so sure that the country won't fall into fiefdoms controlled by warlords.Anyway, there's some of my 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igloo Posted October 1 Report Share Posted October 1 Raver..Nice job digging this up for a response. Anyway, in my post, I did not mean to lump you in with the Bush lied camp...speaking in general Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtk4 Posted October 1 Report Share Posted October 1 My question if these people seem to be better trained, where do you think the training camps are? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmatas2277 Posted October 1 Report Share Posted October 1 My question if these people seem to be better trained, where do you think the training camps are?Syria or Iran...imo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtk4 Posted October 1 Report Share Posted October 1 yeah to bad it is almost impossibe to really close the borders. Shit we can not even close our borders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmatas2277 Posted October 1 Report Share Posted October 1 yeah to bad it is almost impossibe to really close the borders. Shit we can not even close our borders.werd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kramadas Posted October 1 Author Report Share Posted October 1 Syria, Iran...or another possibility is maybe more Iraqi ex-military are joining the resistance. Who knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igloo Posted October 1 Report Share Posted October 1 Syria, Iran...or another possibility is maybe more Iraqi ex-military are joining the resistance. Who knows.The intelligence services of Syria, but especially Iran, have played a huge part in this....Zarqawi's network, as well as seasoned Al Qaeda commanders from Afghanistan, Bosnia, and Chechyna......and of course, former Saddam Feyhedeen (spelling), intelligence officers, secret police services, former Republican Guard, and others.....And the Iraqi regime did actually plan for a lot of what is going on now prior to the war, in terms of setting up weapons caches around the country, dispersing special commanders in various cities, and coordinating with "foreign" sources and native units....this was coordinated by a shadowy Iraqi group called Unit 999, which is a special forces unit of about 2,000 within Iraqi intelligence that trained and coordinated with terrorists groups, among other things.....It was believed that some of these members actually made their way to the U.S. (you may recall a few days of news accounts of Iraqi sleepers in the U.S during the war) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mursa Posted October 2 Report Share Posted October 2 Syria, Iran...or another possibility is maybe more Iraqi ex-military are joining the resistance. Who knows....Don't you think that much of the insurgency is just FED UP IRAQUI's ??? I DO ...and no im not refering to former Baathist ..im refering to normal iraquis who want the US out of their country ......***.in a recent poll nearly 90% of iraqui sees the US as occupiers and not liberators Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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