Guest endymion Posted September 21 Report Share Posted September 21 Bush defended the invasion of Iraq before the UN today in part by telling the UN General Assembly:"This month in Beslan, we saw once again how the terrorists measure their success in the deaths of the innocent and in the pain of grieving families," the president said. "The Russian children did nothing to deserve such awful suffering."It's only been two weeks. It took him months to figure out how to twist the 9/11 knife in our guts for his own political gain. Karl Rove is apparently getting smarter or something.Bush uses an attacker who kills school children in their own school as an example of the worst imaginable example of the horrifying sins of the enemy that he's trying to demonize. It's interesting that most of the world representatives sitting in the UN General Assembly are aware of the elementary school protest in Fallujah that set off the violence there in April.For those of you who have had your heads buried in the sand, the violence in Fallujah originally started when American troops on patrol opened fire on a group of Iraqi elementary school children and their parents in front of their school. They were protesting the closure of the school by the Americans and the continued lack of power and water. American forces opened fire and killed 15 people. 13 were parents of schoolchildren and two were schoolchildren. 53 people were wounded including many of the schoolchildren. After the killings the protest went on for days and escalated even further when Fallujah residents killed the four KBR merceneries and strung their bodies from a bridge.I'm guessing that everybody reading this is under the impression that a bunch of savage Iraqi insurgents went out and killed four Americans and strung them from a bridge with no provocation. They were actually killed by residents of a town who were reeling in pain after American forces committed a Beslan on Fallujah with no provocation, justification or apology.Most of the world representatives sitting at the UN General Assembly know all about all of this. Americans have a completely different perception of what happened in Fallujah and Bush's speech today would have probably worked out just fine if he gave it at an elementary school in Alabama where people form their world views with no input other than Fox News. At the UN, though, that Beslan reference isn't going to fly. Our president is making us look like hypocritical idiots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JMT Posted September 22 Report Share Posted September 22 your link about the alleged "school shooting" proves nothing. pretty weak man. i was expecting better from you when i read it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest saintjohn Posted September 22 Report Share Posted September 22 btw, the murdered contractors worked for blackwater security - not sure what kbr is. also, the story you linked indicates that they were escorting food shipments. "mercenaries," huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest endymion Posted September 22 Report Share Posted September 22 This was widely reported. Are you guys responding by saying that you simply don't believe that the shootings at the protest ever happened? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JMT Posted September 22 Report Share Posted September 22 This was widely reported. Are you guys responding by saying that you simply don't believe that the shootings at the protest ever happened?no, just that its WE SAID-THEY SAID. well i dont assume anything. that CNN link tells me nothing. they could have easily fired first. you are rewriting news. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V. Barbarino Posted September 22 Report Share Posted September 22 I see tech is back on mars again...Kerry will loose simply because the Republicans simply know how to play the game better than the democrats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest endymion Posted September 22 Report Share Posted September 22 News analysis article on 'the Fallujah massacre', as some people refer to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest saintjohn Posted September 22 Report Share Posted September 22 Are you guys responding by saying that you simply don't believe that the shootings at the protest ever happened?i was actually just pointing out some details about the murdered contractors, but, since you asked . . .the story you linked states:U.S. military officials said shots had been fired by protesters as well as by gunmen using automatic weapons from nearby rooftops. Iraqi witnesses said the protesters threw rocks. American soldiers displayed one AK-47 and two Kalashnikov rifles seized afterward, but it was not clear whether the weapons had been recently fired. The situation in Fallujah is under investigation, Pentagon officials said. U.S. military officials said they are meeting with local officials to determine how to best handle such events.you summed it up as "american troops on patrol opened fire on a group of iraqi elementary school children and their parents in front of their school." if the iraqi pta is going to bring machine guns to their bake sales, they shouldn't be surprised when someone gets hurt.the situation sounds like a total clusterfuck. i have no idea what really happened, because i wasn't there. i'm going to go out on a limb, though, and assume that typical american soldiers wouldn't "open fire on a group of iraqi elementary school children" just for fun. in fact, the soldiers i know would rather take cover or retreat from incoming fire if they thought that defending themselves might put innocent children at risk.just because you believe that the commander-in-chief is a reckless cowboy doesn't mean that the average grunt is a baby killer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest endymion Posted September 22 Report Share Posted September 22 A military policy that openly endorses our units firing openly into crowds in foreign countries equates to "baby killing". There was zero accountability for that incident. Kind of like life under Saddam but with more hellish firepower.The fundamental question: how was our involvement in the Fallujah massacre morally superior to the Chechyen rebels killing the kids in Beslan? Why is it immediately obvious to the delegate from Nigeria that the United States is operating from a position of moral superiority and that he should put the support of his nation behind our agenda? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest saintjohn Posted September 22 Report Share Posted September 22 zero accountability? an investigation is underway, according to one of the articles you cited.i'm not sure where you got the notion that there exists "a military policy that openly endorses our units firing openly into crowds in foreign countries." i'd really like a cite on that.techjunkie, i appreciate your sincere concern for innocent bystanders, but i'm concerned by the way you automatically assume the very worst of the men and women serving in iraq. they're not all saints, but they're not all monsters, either. can we just give the soldiers the same benefit of the doubt that you seem to give iraqis? everybody involved has a different perspective (if not an axe to grind), so it's impossible to know what's really happening. i tend to trust the word of friends and relatives who have actually been there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest endymion Posted September 22 Report Share Posted September 22 Why are we there attacking citizens of Fallujah in the first place? Why is our activity there morally superior to Chechyen rebel operations? The Chechyen rebels had a purpose. For what purpose did we originally attack the city of Fallujah? What did we state was our purpose and what was our objective?Does anybody remember?Fallujah is one of the biggest reasons why we are losing the war in Iraq right now so it's worth looking into why we attacked the city in the first place and created the chaos that we're dealing with now. We lit a fire there that we can't put out, it makes sense to look into why we did that. Bush takes it as a given that people will support the US as a morally superior force but he doesn't realize that he is losing credibility on that front.Bush spoke today at the General Assembly just after Kofi Annan spoke and condemned the "massacre" of civilians in Iraq in "cold blood". The Fallujah massacre is one entry in a long list of civilian massacres that the UN delegates are already familiar with. We have a growing credibility gap with the rest of the world, we know this, but we're begging for support anyway. Makes us look pretty pathetic. I'm embarrassed for my country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JMT Posted September 22 Report Share Posted September 22 when have you ever not been "embarrassed for your country"? i dont think ive heard you say one positive thing about it since ive been on cj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest endymion Posted September 22 Report Share Posted September 22 Am I wrong for being alarmed or is it possible that we actually are on the wrong path? Half of our country and most of the rest of the world agree with me, not you.Regardless: how was our attack on Fallujah morally superior to a Chechyen rebel civilian-killing operation? We attacked a city full of civilians to exact revenge. That's pretty evil, what is there to be proud of in that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
all4tribal1414779019 Posted September 22 Report Share Posted September 22 Bush defended the invasion of Iraq before the UN today in part by telling the UN General Assembly:"This month in Beslan, we saw once again how the terrorists measure their success in the deaths of the innocent and in the pain of grieving families," the president said. "The Russian children did nothing to deserve such awful suffering."It's only been two weeks. It took him months to figure out how to twist the 9/11 knife in our guts for his own political gain. Karl Rove is apparently getting smarter or something.Bush uses an attacker who kills school children in their own school as an example of the worst imaginable example of the horrifying sins of the enemy that he's trying to demonize. It's interesting that most of the world representatives sitting in the UN General Assembly are aware of the elementary school protest in Fallujah that set off the violence there in April.For those of you who have had your heads buried in the sand, the violence in Fallujah originally started when American troops on patrol opened fire on a group of Iraqi elementary school children and their parents in front of their school. They were protesting the closure of the school by the Americans and the continued lack of power and water. American forces opened fire and killed 15 people. 13 were parents of schoolchildren and two were schoolchildren. 53 people were wounded including many of the schoolchildren. After the killings the protest went on for days and escalated even further when Fallujah residents killed the four KBR merceneries and strung their bodies from a bridge.I'm guessing that everybody reading this is under the impression that a bunch of savage Iraqi insurgents went out and killed four Americans and strung them from a bridge with no provocation. They were actually killed by residents of a town who were reeling in pain after American forces committed a Beslan on Fallujah with no provocation, justification or apology.Most of the world representatives sitting at the UN General Assembly know all about all of this. Americans have a completely different perception of what happened in Fallujah and Bush's speech today would have probably worked out just fine if he gave it at an elementary school in Alabama where people form their world views with no input other than Fox News. At the UN, though, that Beslan reference isn't going to fly. Our president is making us look like hypocritical idiots.farenheit 9/11 says it all...bush=bushit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dino Posted September 22 Report Share Posted September 22 farenheit 9/11 says it all...bush=bushit!Any statement that uses farenheit 9/11 as a reference is automatically nullified. The movie is a lie.I have news for you. Once Bush wins the election, Felluja is getting leveled. It is too aggressive of a move to do before the elections. Once his 4 more years is secure, Felluja is done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest endymion Posted September 22 Report Share Posted September 22 Once Bush wins the election, Felluja is getting leveled. It is too aggressive of a move to do before the elections. Once his 4 more years is secure, Felluja is done.Looks that way to me too. So the question is still: Why?Why did we launch a full-on urban assault on a city the size of Miami in the first place? We started a fire that we can't put out when we did that. We appear to be waiting until after the election to go back in and reclaim territory that we already took and then retreated from. Why did we attack Fallujah in the first place? What was in Fallujah that we needed to go in with guns blazing, destroy half of the city, and then withdraw?* We were not seeking WMD in Fallujah in April.* Saddam was already out of power.* By inflaming the local population we worked against our goal of holding peaceful elections there.For what purpose did we attack Fallujah? We launched a city siege and killed a bunch innocent civilians. Why are we morally superior to Osama bin Laden and the innocent civilian bystanders in NYC and Washington that he killed?We invaded Fallujah to "punish" them. Our goal was to kill people, there was no other goal. Why was that invasion morally superior to al Qaeda "punishing" us on 9/11? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pod Posted September 23 Report Share Posted September 23 Not for nothing, but I see the war getting way worse if Bush wins. He will look the other way if the generals order atrocities. He knows he doesn't have to run in 2008, so he'll do whatever the hell he wants, and still earn his $400,000/yr paycheck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest endymion Posted September 23 Report Share Posted September 23 "The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing"-Albert Einstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest trancepriest Posted September 23 Report Share Posted September 23 "The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing"-Albert EinsteinMy mind flashes back to the period in history that quote is largely reflective of. I feel very much that we're living in those times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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