Marine Massacre in Haditha

[Guest trancepriest]

throw your fellow brothers under the bus in one post, and promote them in another. your hypocrisy knows no bounds.

HaHa... Sissified Patriot... The marines is full of assholes just like you... the big difference is that at least they have big balls to serve their country in arms way. Now with that said I don't support baby killers and mass murderers.... be they Marines or other wise. If you feel like worshipping a Marine... why don't you start by licking on my balls.

[Guest JMT]

throw your fellow brothers under the bus in one post, and promote them in another. your hypocrisy knows no bounds.

HaHa... Sissified Patriot... The marines is full of assholes just like you...

you mean its full of people smarter than you.

i can just run you over with a jeep instead to show my patriotism, batty.

[Guest trancepriest]

you mean its full of people smarter than you.

i can just run you over with a jeep instead to show my patriotism, batty.

LOL... you are cute. :-*

[Guest pod]

Shit, I nearly got slapped for calling someone batty last weekend.

[Guest tres-b]

Before we convict these guys' date=' lets see all the evidence.

[/quote']Here's some evidence for you to read!!!

On Wednesday, Rep. John Murtha, D-Pa., said the accounts are true.

Murtha is grandstanding. He should have waited for the investigation(which was started awhile back) to complete. He is a politician acting for political gain.

Murtha and what he says holds no weight. IF these Marines are guilty, then they will be punished. It is as simple as that.

[Guest swirlundergrounder]

Before we convict these guys, lets see all the evidence.

Here's some evidence for you to read!!!

On Wednesday, Rep. John Murtha, D-Pa., said the accounts are true.

Murtha is grandstanding. He should have waited for the investigation(which was started awhile back) to complete. He is a politician acting for political gain.

Murtha and what he says holds no weight. IF these Marines are guilty, then they will be punished. It is as simple as that.

I heard this morning that they are going to make the evidence available to the public..

[Guest tres-b]

I look forward to the truth coming out. This is a bad situation but it is war.

[Guest swirlundergrounder]

I look forward to the truth coming out. This is a bad situation but it is war.

How about this...

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. military officials say the killing of 24 civilians in the Iraqi town of Haditha in November appears to have been an unprovoked attack by U.S. Marines, after an investigation found the victims died of gunshot wounds, The New York Times reported on Wednesday.

The findings of the investigation contradicted Marines' claims that the civilians were victims of a roadside bomb, the newspaper said.

The Times report, citing an unidentified senior military official in Iraq, said the investigation in February and March led by Col. Gregory Watt, an Army officer in Baghdad, uncovered death certificates showing the Iraqis were shot mostly in the head and chest.

The three-week probe was the first official investigation into the killings.

"There were enough inconsistencies that things didn't add up," the senior official was quoted as saying by the Times.

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, had been briefed on the conclusion of Watt's preliminary investigation, the newspaper said. The findings have not been made public.

In an interview with CNN, new Iraqi ambassador to the United States Samir al-Sumaidaie said there appeared to have been other killings of civilians by Marines in Haditha, where some of his family lives.

The ambassador said Marines shot and killed his cousin during a house-to-house search several months before the November incident.

"I believe he was killed intentionally. I believe that he was killed unnecessarily," al-Sumaidaie said.

He said three other unarmed youths were shot dead by Marines in a later incident in the area.

"They were in a car, they were unarmed, I believe, and they were shot."

Watt's investigation also reviewed cash payments totaling $38,000 made within weeks of the November shootings to families of victims, The New York Times said.

In an interview with the newspaper on Tuesday, Maj. Dana Hyatt said his superiors told him to compensate the relatives of 15 victims, but the other dead civilians had been determined to have committed hostile acts, leaving their families ineligible for compensation.

The U.S. military sometimes pays compensation to relatives of civilian victims.

Residents of Haditha, 200 km (125 miles) northwest of Baghdad in an area that has seen much activity by Sunni Arab insurgents, have told Reuters that U.S. Marines attacked houses after their patrol was hit by a roadside bomb.

On November 20, U.S. Marines spokesman Captain Jeffrey Pool issued a statement saying that, on the previous day, a roadside bomb had killed 15 civilians and a Marine. In a later gunbattle, U.S. and Iraqi troops had killed eight insurgents, he added.

U.S. military officials have since confirmed to Reuters that that version of the events of November 19 was wrong and that the 15 civilians were not killed by the blast but were shot dead.

[Guest swirlundergrounder]

If the Iraqi Insurgence really wanted to fuck shit up over there, they would steal some American Military uniforms and gear and go around killing civilians making it look like our troops did it. And as a result cause fear and distrust of coalition forces among Iraqi civilians.

[Guest BIOBLIZZARD]

Tell It To The Marines (A Soldier's Update)

I’ve heard smart people say ignorant things for the past few days about the incident in Haditha.

None actually knows much but are quite eager and willing to conjecture or pass judgments.

Mary Katherine Ham provides a concise chronology of the partial information available. It’s not much about the incident, but is much about the care of the investigation and the carelessness of the commentary.

Anyone who doesn’t wait or reserve judgment until the very careful military investigations are complete is jumping the gun as much as Murtha.

The only thing that seems pretty clear at this point is that it is definitely not, either by MSM imagination or reality, analogous to My Lai. There is no officer leadership of the Marines in the engagement, there is no command cover-up, there is no hint of purposeful rather than reactive action, the scale is far smaller.

Useful to remember in all this is that our Marines are the finest, and most disciplined, fighting force, made up of our finest men and women. Statistics during the Vietnam era showed Marine recruits actually subpar to the Army’s draftees in intelligence and physically, but the product of Marine training was superior. Today, the Marines retain the best of its volunteers, as this study by the Center for Naval Analysis affirms.

If anything untoward happened at Haditha, it was at worst a small exception. If anything untoward did not happen at Haditha, it is not an exception to the typical coverage provided by our major hysterical media. (UPDATE: Here's an untypical report by an embedded CNN reporter, who saw these Marines' restraint again and again.) In either case, tell it to the Marines who bravely and honorably serve that you don't have the guts and patience to hear the facts, and would rather allow premature ignorance to besmirch their reputation and morale.

UPDATE: A Soldier in Iraq Weighs In

Post # 1: O.J. Simpson, arguably the most guilty innocent man in recent history, was treated with

more respect during his circus of a trial than these Marines are being given now. They are men in uniform, men who have sacrificed more than most ever will in the name of the United States. They deserve our respect until such time as a verdict is reached which calls that respect into question.

So that's my position on the Haditha investigation. If the Marines are found guilty, I believe they will be punished accordingly. If they are found innocent, I believe they will be outcast by the media as benefactors of a cover up. Unfortunately, all of these men's careers are basically over no matter what the findings. The anti-war, anti-Bush journalists have seen to that.

Post # 2: I was in Iraq when the Abu Ghraib story broke in 2004 (side note: I drove

past that very prison just last night) and I don't think the American

military has really recovered from the scandal. I remember the backlash it caused, the increased attacks and IEDs. When I began to read into this Haditha story, I suddenly realized why attacks have spiked in recent days.

One major disadvantage of the media blitzes these reporters perpetrate is that they cause more discontent and violence in a country where you can buy a Soviet-produced rocket propelled grenade launcher with two rounds for the price of an iPod. For a moment set aside whether these Marines are innocent or guilty and think about what kind of backlash this story is going to produce. More IEDs will be placed, more weapons will appear on the streets, and more soldiers are going to die. . I'm a major supporter of the First Amendment, but I have a vested interest in this incident being kept low-profile. If it's true, it's an atrocity, and the men responsible from bottom to top should swing from the yardarm. If it turns out to be yet another case of the media attacking the Bush administration, an as-yet

unknown number of U.S. servicemen will have been killed as a result of a media circus. If the latter is true, can we hang the reporters for negligent manslaughter?

— Bruce Kesler

[Guest trancepriest]

^^^ Are we living in World War 2 era Germany. Don't question the government... don't question the troops.... don't make judgments. These fuckers killed 24 people and said they died in a roadside bomb. The video clearly shows that they were shot to death. What fucking more evidence do you need?

[Guest swirlundergrounder]

^^^ Are we living in World War 2 era Germany. Don't question the government... don't question the troops.... don't make judgments. These fuckers killed 24 people and said they died in a roadside bomb. The video clearly shows that they were shot to death. What fucking more evidence do you need?

24 people mostly 'UNARMED WOMEN AND CHILDREN'!!

The bullet shells are not as releavant as the analysis of the wounds of each of the victims which shows how they were killed and that the wounds were consistant of those being made by ther same issue of weapon issued to the marine corp.

This is unfortunate. I don't question the valor of the majority of people in the military but an incident like this is not impossible like some on this thread claim it to be.

True we should look at the evidence. But the behavior of the military and the way they covered this up since last winter tell me another story of what really happened.

[Guest tres-b]

^^^ Are we living in World War 2 era Germany. Don't question the government... don't question the troops.... don't make judgments. These fuckers killed 24 people and said they died in a roadside bomb. The video clearly shows that they were shot to death. What fucking more evidence do you need?

And that is exactly what soldier are supposed to do...shoot people to death. The question is- did they knowingly shoot innocents?

I am all for justice but do we have all the evidence? I dont know that we do.

[Guest trancepriest]

And that is exactly what soldier are supposed to do...shoot people to death. The question is- did they knowingly shoot innocents?

I am all for justice but do we have all the evidence? I dont know that we do.

Soldiers are supposed to shoot UNARMED women, babies and children? What fucking army have you been in?

[Deni0517]

And that is exactly what soldier are supposed to do...shoot people to death. The question is- did they knowingly shoot innocents?

I am all for justice but do we have all the evidence? I dont know that we do.

Soldiers are supposed to shoot UNARMED women, babies and children? What fucking army have you been in?

Slobodan Milosevic's army!! LOL

[Guest tres-b]

And that is exactly what soldier are supposed to do...shoot people to death. The question is- did they knowingly shoot innocents?

I am all for justice but do we have all the evidence? I dont know that we do.

Soldiers are supposed to shoot UNARMED women, babies and children? What fucking army have you been in?

You are getting emotional. Read the next part...

[glow=red,2,300]The question is- did they knowingly shoot innocents?

I am all for justice but do we have all the evidence? I dont know that we do.[/glow]

and focus on the "all for justice" part. If they are guilty, they will be punished.

[Guest lyrik]

And that is exactly what soldier are supposed to do...shoot people to death. The question is- did they knowingly shoot innocents?

I am all for justice but do we have all the evidence? I dont know that we do.

Soldiers are supposed to shoot UNARMED women, babies and children? What fucking army have you been in?

Man...not that I am picking and choosing sides here...but it just seems to me that anything you post is slanted towards how the US is fucking up and how the war effort isn't justified...ignorance this...and stupid that....my question is since you seem to be such an advocate for the opposition of the US govt...our efforts in the middle east and other regions what strives have you made to protest and end the war and offer up alternatives to how the nation has been operating…I mean other then ranting on a message board. You call out supporters of the effort and tell them they should enlist, but in the same right what are you doing to support your position...really I want to know...maybe you are...maybe you aren't…maybe you have clarified this before and I missed it...and also if you are so against the war effort and US's continuing effort to bring democracy to the world...does that mean you supported the way Iraq treated its people before hand...do you think all was right in the world and we should have gone on with our lives as we always had...even after 911......I want to know your real position on OTHER countries as opposed to the US...since you paint the American Govt. to be such bumbling idiots...what about the atrocities committed by other groups, countries/govts...etc...are they any less or more...or is it just to piss certain people off that you take the position you do and point out what seems to me only American mistakes.

I can honestly say I don't agree 100% with the gov't, the war efforts etc...but I also don't take a far left or right approach to things as it seems short sighted and unrealistic...please fill me in...

[Guest swirlundergrounder]

And that is exactly what soldier are supposed to do...shoot people to death. The question is- did they knowingly shoot innocents?

I am all for justice but do we have all the evidence? I dont know that we do.

Soldiers are supposed to shoot UNARMED women, babies and children? What fucking army have you been in?

You are getting emotional. Read the next part...

[glow=red,2,300]The question is- did they knowingly shoot innocents?

I am all for justice but do we have all the evidence? I dont know that we do.[/glow]

and focus on the "all for justice" part. If they are guilty, they will be punished.

But they are saying now with the analysis of the evidence is that the women and children were killed 'EXECUTION STYLE'... In the back of the head etc... So yes someone knowingly killed innocent WOMEN AND CHILDREN..

[Guest swirlundergrounder]

And that is exactly what soldier are supposed to do...shoot people to death. The question is- did they knowingly shoot innocents?

I am all for justice but do we have all the evidence? I dont know that we do.

Soldiers are supposed to shoot UNARMED women, babies and children? What fucking army have you been in?

Man...not that I am picking and choosing sides here...but it just seems to me that anything you post is slanted towards how the US is fucking up and how the war effort isn't justified...ignorance this...and stupid that....my question is since you seem to be such an advocate for the opposition of the US govt...our efforts in the middle east and other regions what strives have you made to protest and end the war and offer up alternatives to how the nation has been operating…I mean other then ranting on a message board. You call out supporters of the effort and tell them they should enlist, but in the same right what are you doing to support your position...really I want to know...maybe you are...maybe you aren't…maybe you have clarified this before and I missed it...and also if you are so against the war effort and US's continuing effort to bring democracy to the world...does that mean you supported the way Iraq treated its people before hand...do you think all was right in the world and we should have gone on with our lives as we always had...even after 911......I want to know your real position on OTHER countries as opposed to the US...since you paint the American Govt. to be such bumbling idiots...what about the atrocities committed by other groups, countries/govts...etc...are they any less or more...or is it just to piss certain people off that you take the position you do and point out what seems to me only American mistakes.

I can honestly say I don't agree 100% with the gov't, the war efforts etc...but I also don't take a far left or right approach to things as it seems short sighted and unrealistic...please fill me in...

No. Trancepreist has stated alternatives before. I think a lot of us have on both sides weather or not we agree on an issue regarding the war on terror. Man we've been discussing this and that for several years now since the intitial invasion of Iraq.

Lyric with regards to your question about if Iraq was a better place before the coalition forces occupied Iraq the answer is yes and no.

Yes. Now there is no Dictator ruling the country like Sadamm Hussien did. And then to answer the same question, No it's Iraq is not better off. Baghadad is now the most dangerous city in the world today.

So which of the 2 scenarios is better? We can't really answer that. Only the people of Iraq can. And obviously there are 2 strong parties involved. One being the insurgency and the other being the installed goverenment of Iraq. The third party invovlved is the people caught in the middle who can't do a damm thing about it, whixch is the vast majortiy of Iraqis who are suffering the most... Some say even more so when Sadamm was in power becasue at least then there was more organization within the country than there is now. Iraq is in a state of utter chaos.

[Guest lyrik]

And that is exactly what soldier are supposed to do...shoot people to death. The question is- did they knowingly shoot innocents?

I am all for justice but do we have all the evidence? I dont know that we do.

Soldiers are supposed to shoot UNARMED women' date=' babies and children? What fucking army have you been in?

[/quote']

Man...not that I am picking and choosing sides here...but it just seems to me that anything you post is slanted towards how the US is fucking up and how the war effort isn't justified...ignorance this...and stupid that....my question is since you seem to be such an advocate for the opposition of the US govt...our efforts in the middle east and other regions what strives have you made to protest and end the war and offer up alternatives to how the nation has been operating…I mean other then ranting on a message board. You call out supporters of the effort and tell them they should enlist, but in the same right what are you doing to support your position...really I want to know...maybe you are...maybe you aren't…maybe you have clarified this before and I missed it...and also if you are so against the war effort and US's continuing effort to bring democracy to the world...does that mean you supported the way Iraq treated its people before hand...do you think all was right in the world and we should have gone on with our lives as we always had...even after 911......I want to know your real position on OTHER countries as opposed to the US...since you paint the American Govt. to be such bumbling idiots...what about the atrocities committed by other groups, countries/govts...etc...are they any less or more...or is it just to piss certain people off that you take the position you do and point out what seems to me only American mistakes.

I can honestly say I don't agree 100% with the gov't, the war efforts etc...but I also don't take a far left or right approach to things as it seems short sighted and unrealistic...please fill me in...

No. Trancepreist has stated alternatives before. I think a lot of us have on both sides weather or not we agree on an issue regarding the war on terror. Man we've been discussing this and that for several years now since the intitial invasion of Iraq.

Lyric with regards to your question about if Iraq was a better place before the coalition forces occupied Iraq the answer is yes and no.

Yes. Now there is no Dictator ruling the country like Sadamm Hussien did. And then to answer the same question, No it's Iraq is not better off. Baghadad is now the most dangerous city in the world today.

So which of the 2 scenarios is better? We can't really answer that. Only the people of Iraq can. And obviously there are 2 strong parties involved. One being the insurgency and the other being the installed goverenment of Iraq. The third party invovlved is the people caught in the middle who can't do a damm thing about it, whixch is the vast majortiy of Iraqis who are suffering the most... Some say even more so when Sadamm was in power becasue at least then there was more organization within the country than there is now. Iraq is in a state of utter chaos.

I thought I prob. missed some things over the years...but to me it just seems like EVERYTHING is anti-US...from him...take a break there other people/countires/groups inflicting harm on the world as well...and maybe its my fault maybe I missed those posts...but what I have been been able to catch up on seems so one sided...that only the US does harm...makes mistakes...I agree Iraq no better no worse in a lot of aspects...but did anyone honestly believe change would happen over night let alone in a matter of a few years...did we truly believe there wouldn't be sacrifice on both sides...was diplomacy working...is it working...different roads need to be taken to get to different places...were we 100% correct in how we handled Iraq...no I suppose...but hindsight is 20/20...I hear a lot of shoulda...woulda...coulda's from everyone...I mean honestly how long could we have gone without taking some sort of action (right or wrong)...especially after 911. Wars take years and LIVES..its the sad reality and there will be innocents lost...lets not forget that we also have a fair share of those being lost to ensure I out freedoms, protection...if anyone honestly believe we could totally pull our forces from the region and cease our efforts and live a secure lifestyle they have to be living in a fantasy world.

[Guest trancepriest]

Man...not that I am picking and choosing sides here...but it just seems to me that anything you post is slanted towards how the US is fucking up and how the war effort isn't justified...ignorance this...and stupid that....my question is since you seem to be such an advocate for the opposition of the US govt...our efforts in the middle east and other regions what strives have you made to protest and end the war and offer up alternatives to how the nation has been operating…I mean other then ranting on a message board. You call out supporters of the effort and tell them they should enlist, but in the same right what are you doing to support your position...really I want to know...maybe you are...maybe you aren't…maybe you have clarified this before and I missed it...and also if you are so against the war effort and US's continuing effort to bring democracy to the world...does that mean you supported the way Iraq treated its people before hand...do you think all was right in the world and we should have gone on with our lives as we always had...even after 911......I want to know your real position on OTHER countries as opposed to the US...since you paint the American Govt. to be such bumbling idiots...what about the atrocities committed by other groups, countries/govts...etc...are they any less or more...or is it just to piss certain people off that you take the position you do and point out what seems to me only American mistakes.

I can honestly say I don't agree 100% with the gov't, the war efforts etc...but I also don't take a far left or right approach to things as it seems short sighted and unrealistic...please fill me in...

Nothing strikes me as more pussified... than young able bodied men of warfighting ability... supporting a war that they are not willing to fight in. Chanting at home like cheerleaders with the women. Especially when these same young people claim to be patriots. They've never served in the armed forces and they never will unless drafted... because in reality they are too pussy. Sissified Patriots. A real patriot would put their own ass on the line... instead of relying on the less than .3% of the population in the armed forces who are over stretched doing multiple tours in a combat zone. If ya'll say that you are supporters of the war... in what ways are ya'll supporting? If anyone of you pussies sign up for the armed forces... even as a fucking cook.. I swear I'll re-enlist in the Marines. No fucking kidding around. So JMT, Shaun, Saleen, Lyrik, Tres-B... all you talking bitches.... man the fuck up and relieve the troops at the front.

As for your question about how I support the anti-war movement other than on this message board. I financially support Democracy Now and every single day I talk to people in my community about this war. I'm also starting up a video production company in which I'll broadcast my view points online.

[Guest slamminshaun]

Does anyone know what happened to the Germans after the Allies occupied them? Ever heard of the "werewolves" who are interestingly enough similar to Iraq's insurgents? German innocents shot, swatztikas painted on people's foreheads, women raped, all by members of Allied forces. Would anyone say that our occupation of Germany was unjustified and/or wrong?

Every city in Germany was in ruins. They had no transportation, no industry, people starving everywhere. Time magazine even took a poll back then and MANY Americans thought we needed to bail out on the Germans since so many soliders were being attacked and some killed.

I say, its too early to tell. Let the history books decide Bush's fate.

[Guest coach]

Man...not that I am picking and choosing sides here...but it just seems to me that anything you post is slanted towards how the US is fucking up and how the war effort isn't justified...ignorance this...and stupid that....my question is since you seem to be such an advocate for the opposition of the US govt...our efforts in the middle east and other regions what strives have you made to protest and end the war and offer up alternatives to how the nation has been operating…I mean other then ranting on a message board. You call out supporters of the effort and tell them they should enlist, but in the same right what are you doing to support your position...really I want to know...maybe you are...maybe you aren't…maybe you have clarified this before and I missed it...and also if you are so against the war effort and US's continuing effort to bring democracy to the world...does that mean you supported the way Iraq treated its people before hand...do you think all was right in the world and we should have gone on with our lives as we always had...even after 911......I want to know your real position on OTHER countries as opposed to the US...since you paint the American Govt. to be such bumbling idiots...what about the atrocities committed by other groups, countries/govts...etc...are they any less or more...or is it just to piss certain people off that you take the position you do and point out what seems to me only American mistakes.

I can honestly say I don't agree 100% with the gov't, the war efforts etc...but I also don't take a far left or right approach to things as it seems short sighted and unrealistic...please fill me in...

Nothing strikes me as more pussified... than young able bodied men of warfighting ability... supporting a war that they are not willing to fight in. Chanting at home like cheerleaders with the women. Especially when these same young people claim to be patriots. They've never served in the armed forces and they never will unless drafted... because in reality they are too pussy. Sissified Patriots. A real patriot would put their own ass on the line... instead of relying on the less than .3% of the population in the armed forces who are over stretched doing multiple tours in a combat zone. If ya'll say that you are supporters of the war... in what ways are ya'll supporting? If anyone of you pussies sign up for the armed forces... even as a fucking cook.. I swear I'll re-enlist in the Marines. No fucking kidding around. So JMT, Shaun, Saleen, Lyrik, Tres-B... all you talking bitches.... man the fuck up and relieve the troops at the front.

As for your question about how I support the anti-war movement other than on this message board. I financially support Democracy Now and every single day I talk to people in my community about this war. I'm also starting up a video production company in which I'll broadcast my view points online.

Ha ha. Very nice. Who is taking TP's challenge?

[Guest lyrik]

Man...not that I am picking and choosing sides here...but it just seems to me that anything you post is slanted towards how the US is fucking up and how the war effort isn't justified...ignorance this...and stupid that....my question is since you seem to be such an advocate for the opposition of the US govt...our efforts in the middle east and other regions what strives have you made to protest and end the war and offer up alternatives to how the nation has been operating…I mean other then ranting on a message board. You call out supporters of the effort and tell them they should enlist, but in the same right what are you doing to support your position...really I want to know...maybe you are...maybe you aren't…maybe you have clarified this before and I missed it...and also if you are so against the war effort and US's continuing effort to bring democracy to the world...does that mean you supported the way Iraq treated its people before hand...do you think all was right in the world and we should have gone on with our lives as we always had...even after 911......I want to know your real position on OTHER countries as opposed to the US...since you paint the American Govt. to be such bumbling idiots...what about the atrocities committed by other groups, countries/govts...etc...are they any less or more...or is it just to piss certain people off that you take the position you do and point out what seems to me only American mistakes.

I can honestly say I don't agree 100% with the gov't, the war efforts etc...but I also don't take a far left or right approach to things as it seems short sighted and unrealistic...please fill me in...

Nothing strikes me as more pussified... than young able bodied men of warfighting ability... supporting a war that they are not willing to fight in. Chanting at home like cheerleaders with the women. Especially when these same young people claim to be patriots. They've never served in the armed forces and they never will unless drafted... because in reality they are too pussy. Sissified Patriots. A real patriot would put their own ass on the line... instead of relying on the less than .3% of the population in the armed forces who are over stretched doing multiple tours in a combat zone. If ya'll say that you are supporters of the war... in what ways are ya'll supporting? If anyone of you pussies sign up for the armed forces... even as a fucking cook.. I swear I'll re-enlist in the Marines. No fucking kidding around. So JMT, Shaun, Saleen, Lyrik, Tres-B... all you talking bitches.... man the fuck up and relieve the troops at the front.

As for your question about how I support the anti-war movement other than on this message board. I financially support Democracy Now and every single day I talk to people in my community about this war. I'm also starting up a video production company in which I'll broadcast my view points online.

Please don’t assume to know personal facts of my able bodied ability to join or not join the military. I didn't personally attack you nor did I reduce my myself to name calling...if you have personal beefs with other people that’s with them...I was simply posing some questions the same way you might...I never said I was a die hard supporter of the war effort...as with people on both far sides of the issue...you pick and choose the points you want to absorb to suit your own opinion and ignore the middle ground. I am glad to hear you are not just sitting back and are making efforts to support your views...it was a completely HONEST question posed by me...you shouldn't take offense to someone asking your position and aspects of that opinion. I rarely post in regards to this...sure I have my opinions...but its like a fuckin merry-go-round in here most of the time and all of you end up right back where you started...I just find it funny that when questioned in an honest way by someone that has never called you names or brought a conversation to that level that you automatically go there.

You see I like to get both sides of the story to form what I hope to be an informed opinion of a subject...by you lashing out me it does nothing but push me away from yours...so if you truly are someone that is going to push your opinions and make a difference whether it be here or in your vid prod. co etc I would hope you take that into consideration...that just as you question things there will be people to question you...and a lot of times its not to oppose but to try and relate...again if atrocities of US gov't and troops bug you so much why stop at this country...it shouldn't matter the country but rather that any injustice whether it be done by America...this country that country...be brought to the attention of others...its all I am saying...it just seems to me...and AGAIN I may have missed some posts..it just seems to me you make a fervent effort to only criticize the US.

[Guest swirlundergrounder]

Does anyone know what happened to the Germans after the Allies occupied them? Ever heard of the "werewolves" who are interestingly enough similar to Iraq's insurgents? German innocents shot' date=' swatztikas painted on people's foreheads, women raped, all by members of Allied forces. Would anyone say that our occupation of Germany was unjustified and/or wrong?

Every city in Germany was in ruins. They had no transportation, no industry, people starving everywhere. Time magazine even took a poll back then and MANY Americans thought we needed to bail out on the Germans since so many soliders were being attacked and some killed.

I say, its too early to tell. Let the history books decide Bush's fate.

[/quote']But in relation to how much of a threat Iraq is to the world versus how much nazi Germany was a threat to the world, you can't even compare them.

Nazi Germany occupied the vast majority of Eastern Europe and even had allies on their side. I think they were called the 'Axis Powers' right?

Now look at Iraq. The last time they were any kind of threat was back in 1991 when their military was rated the 6th strogest in the world and still back then they were no where as powerful as Nazi Germany was...

So different situations call for different measures. Sadamm was pretty much on his back when we decided to over throw his regime and remove him from power..

I don't have the right answers for what we should have done with Iraq. I guess that's whole different thread.

But what do you guys think we would have done with Sadamm and Iraq if 9/11 never happened?

Would we have done the same thing? Would we have been provoked to take the actions we did in Iraq and end up in the situation that we are in now?

No...I really don't think we would have......