A SPIKE LEE FILM... When the Levees Broke

[Guest coach]

Most of Miami is 3 feet under sea level.

no, most of it is 3 feet above sea level.

I thought it was around 12 feet, but maybe that is just the ridge.

[Guest james stratus]

The highest point in Florida is only like 25 feet above sea level while the rest is pretty much at and below sea level.

Katrina Timeline - http://www.thinkprogress.org/katrina-timeline

I don't know the entire political view of that site, so don't come here and say I posted a "liberal" link.

Obby, take a look at that page which has resources sited for each date entry and track the progress of the President's response. Please tell me if am wrong, but doesn't the President have to declare an area a Disaster Area in order for federal aid to even begin to go in?

And yes there were failures on all levels of government in realtion to New Orleans. Not only directly after Katrina, but from 50 years previous. Also failure in the design and implementation of the Levees.

Answer me this:

How much emergency food and water is stocked at Pro Player Stadium (for example) in case of a Katrina level disaster? Or the Miami Beach Convention Center, Coconut Grove Convention Center, Miami Arena, National Car Rental Center....

[Guest slamminshaun]

Then don't slam me if I decide to post a link to Rush Limbaugh.com.....that's basically how extreme that website is, only the other direction.

[Guest james stratus]

Then don't slam me if I decide to post a link to Rush Limbaugh.com.....that's basically how extreme that website is' date=' only the other direction.

[/quote']

Post a link to something on that site that is so extremely biased as anything that Limbaugh would post on his site. I looked around the site and didn't see any flags towards a political bias. If I had I would not have posted the link.

[Guest slamminshaun]

I wasn't slammin' you over it....but it's funny you chose that site because they're so far left-wing, they make left-wingers look conservative. In case you were curious, here's who runs the website. Not too many moderates on the staff.

http://www.thinkprogress.org/about

[Guest slamminshaun]

I guess Bush is to blame for this one too....

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=local&id=4486412

[Guest obby]

The highest point in Florida is only like 25 feet above sea level while the rest is pretty much at and below sea level.

Katrina Timeline - http://www.thinkprogress.org/katrina-timeline

I don't know the entire political view of that site, so don't come here and say I posted a "liberal" link.

Obby, take a look at that page which has resources sited for each date entry and track the progress of the President's response. Please tell me if am wrong, but doesn't the President have to declare an area a Disaster Area in order for federal aid to even begin to go in?

And yes there were failures on all levels of government in realtion to New Orleans. Not only directly after Katrina, but from 50 years previous. Also failure in the design and implementation of the Levees.

Answer me this:

How much emergency food and water is stocked at Pro Player Stadium (for example) in case of a Katrina level disaster? Or the Miami Beach Convention Center, Coconut Grove Convention Center, Miami Arena, National Car Rental Center....

First off that site is a joke and it seems like you knew that before hand due to your "disclaimer." I'll leave that part at that.

Now to answer your question: No! The GOVERNOR of the state must declare the state of emergency in order to qualify for federal assistance.

Then the Governor has the power to activate the states National Guard to assess damage, provide aid and security while the fed. Government mobilizes.

Next point: major, major failures w/ Katrina but no one person can be expected to take to blame for a catastrophic 100 yr. storm event. It would just be arrogant to assume man could have prevailed over mother nature. She ALWAYS wins. Hurricane Andrew had it’s problems, but the state and it’s residents handled it MUCH, MUCH better than did New Orleans. As a matter of fact, Mississippi was also completely leveled, yet they did not have the complications seen in New Orleans. As for the levees, the Government has been funding the repair of those levees for decades only to have the corrupt local Government of the state of LA. and the city of New Orleans waste that money on everything except those levees. They had been neglected for years by the city. The Government had given LA, and specifically NO more money than any other state in the union. All of that is on the record books. Corrupt and inept local Government was the primary reason we saw such chaos post Katrina.

3rd point….

As for pro player stadium and food stocks…..THANK YOU for bringing that up…what happened in NO will never happen in Mia because CITIZENS are prepared to take care of themselves or evacuate on time to designated shelters. Florida citizens are much more prepared to take care of themselves rather that wait for DA’ GUBMIN’T to save them. New Orleans is a poor city w/ very, very dependant population.

First and foremost,,,BLAME THE STORM….Then blame the local Government and the inability of the fed. Government to communicate w/ the local government….THEN BLAME THE PEOPLE for their ignorance!

I hope this helped and remember.........Blame Bush!!!! It's Easier Than Thanking!!!!!

[Guest trancepriest]

3rd point….

As for pro player stadium and food stocks…..THANK YOU for bringing that up…what happened in NO will never happen in Mia because CITIZENS are prepared to take care of themselves or evacuate on time to designated shelters. Florida citizens are much more prepared to take care of themselves rather that wait for DA’ GUBMIN’T to save them. New Orleans is a poor city w/ very, very dependant population.

First and foremost,,,BLAME THE STORM….Then blame the local Government and the inability of the fed. Government to communicate w/ the local government….THEN BLAME THE PEOPLE for their ignorance!

I guess miami is a rich city. I guess all those Cubans don't get any GUBMIN'T assistance. The last time I was down there I saw roosters and crackheads roaming the streets for christ sakes. The same shit would happen.... the people aren't any different.

Miami:

"The per capita income for the city was $15,128. About 23.5% of families and 28.5% of the population were below the poverty line, including 38.2% of those under age 18 and 29.3% of those age 65 or over.

Based on the FBI's Uniform Crime Reports Program, Miami ranks as the second most dangerous metropolitan area in the United States, based number of murders, rapes, robberies, aggravated assaults, burglaries and motor vehicle thefts that have occurred in the metropolitan area. The city proper ranks 14th."

The city ranks second-to-last in people over 18 with a high school diploma, with 23% of the population not having that degree.

In 2004, the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) ranked Miami first in terms of percentage of residents born outside of the country it is located in (59%), followed by Toronto (43%). --- Wikipedia

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New Orleans:

"The median income for a household in the city was $27,133, and the median income for a family was $32,338. Males had a median income of $30,862 versus $23,768 for females. The per capita income for the city was $17,258. 27.9% of the population and 23.7% of families were below the poverty line. Out of the total population, 40.3% of those under the age of 18 and 19.3% of those 65 and older were living below the poverty line." --- Wikipedia

More people in Miami are below the poverty line than in New Orleans.

[Guest obby]

It already did happen…ie…Andrew in ’92…..killed 30-something people….flattened south Florida! AND IT DIDN’T HAPPEN HERE…So, nice try…too bad, so sad…..should of, could of would of and if I had wheels and pedals I might be a bicycle.

The local “Government†handled it better. Probably due to years of experience..regardless, Florida handled it better.

Mississippi, who also got leveled by Katrina handled it better. NO is a mess and proof that more money w/ out accountability leads to a whole lot of nothing.

The instinct of the people was not to blame a person, rather blame the storm and themselves for not being better prepared…

When you have a culture of people almost completely dependent on the Government it inevitably leads to nothing good.

There will always be a small % of people who can’t get out “for whatever reasons†BUT WE’RE NOT TALKING ‘BOUT THOSE EXCEPTIONS but the # of people we saw who chose to stay in NO was a combination of local Government failing to emphasize the gravity of what was coming combined w/ ignorant masses.

[Guest trancepriest]

It already did happen…ie…Andrew in ’92…..killed 30-something people….flattened south Florida! AND IT DIDN’T HAPPEN HERE…So, nice try…too bad, so sad…..should of, could of would of and if I had wheels and pedals I might be a bicycle.

The local “Government†handled it better. Probably due to years of experience..regardless, Florida handled it better.

Mississippi, who also got leveled by Katrina handled it better. N.O. is a mess and proof that more money w/ out accountability leads to a whole lot of nothing.

The instinct of the people was not to blame a person, rather blame the storm and themselves for not being better prepared…

When you have a culture of people almost completely dependent on the Government it inevitably leads to nothing good.

There will always be a small % of people who can’t get out “for whatever reasons†BUT WE’RE NOT TALKING ‘BOUT THOSE EXCEPTIONS…but the # of people we saw who chose to stay in NO was a combination of local Government failing to emphasize the gravity of what was coming combined w/ ignorant masses.

Was that a flood that destroyed most of miami?

The slow response of federal aid to storm victims in southern Florida led Dade County emergency management director Kate Hale to famously exclaim at a nationally televised news conference, "Where in the hell is the cavalry on this one? They keep saying we're going to get supplies. For God's sake, where are they?" --- Wikipedia, Hurricane Andrew

Dude Miami is poorer than New Orleans with more of a foreign population. Which city has the more dependant population according to you?

[Guest obby]

The lesser known story is that a few months later Dade County fired Kate Hale's sorry ass for so manifestly failing to perform her duties as the County's emergency operations director. She forgot that she was the cavalry.

[Guest trancepriest]

The lesser known story is that a few months later Dade County fired Kate Hale's sorry ass for so manifestly failing to perform her duties as the County's emergency operations director. She forgot that she was the cavalry.

So doesn't that negate the prior BS you just posted?

It already did happen…ie…Andrew in ’92…..killed 30-something people….flattened south Florida! AND IT DIDN’T HAPPEN HERE…So, nice try…too bad, so sad…..should of, could of would of and if I had wheels and pedals I might be a bicycle.

I thought Cubans in miami were more likely to vote republican? ;D

"Mounted Dade County deputies question a suspected looter at a shopping center in Homestead, Fla., after he was caught with items from a destroyed supermarket there. Looting was a significant problem in the days following the strike of Hurricane Andrew. In the background citizens line up for free bags of ice."

http://www.kevinmoloney.com/port/port.html?http%3A//www.kevinmoloney.com/port/news/news2.html

After hurricane andrew I was down in Miami getting processed to go into the Marines. The city was still functioning because the hurricane primarily affected Homestead. The damage was mostly from hurricane force winds and not flooding. Comparing the effects of Andrew on homestead to Katrina on New Orleans is preposterous. Which would you rather face a hurricane or a flood from a broken levee... with waters higher than your house?

[Guest JMT]

The highest point in Florida is only like 25 feet above sea level while the rest is pretty much at and below sea level.

Geography

The City of Miami and its suburbs are located on a broad plain between the Florida Everglades and Biscayne Bay that also extends from Florida Bay north to Lake Okeechobee. The elevation of the area never rises above 15ft (4.5 m) and averages at around 3ft (0.91 m) above sea level in most neighborhoods, especially near the coast.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami,_Florida

[Guest james stratus]

I read the "About" page on that site before posting and noted the non-patisan statement. You can determine what you want about the site owners but can that timeline be disputed aside from the wording of each event? They even sited Fox News

Yes, step one is from the State, but step two is Federal, which is what I was getting at with federal aid. The President is the next link in the chain in order to allow FEMA to come in. As I previously stated, there is no one person to blame for the post Katrina debacle, as it is evident that EVERY link in the chain of command failed to properly respond in a reasonable fashion and amount of time.

To say what happened in NO won't happen here is what people always say before it happens to them. History is destined to repeat itself you know! Andrew and the hurricanes of the last 2 years have already disproved what you have stated about our Florida citizens preparedness to take care of themselves without governmental assistance. None of these events displaced as many people as Katrina did in the Gulf though.

If you still have your home then riding out a week or two, maybe three, without electricty and without the ability to take in additional food or water is doable for most, but after that it gets messy. And if you don't have your home anymore and your car got destroyed as well, good luck finding a spot in a shelter and transportation out without government assistance.

If you remember Andrew then you remember that Florida City did not exist after the storm past. It looked like what southern Lebenon looks like now... No Water, No Electricity, No Phones, No infrastructure what so ever for a very long time. Some may have a concrete bunker and a nuclear holocaust's worth of canned food and water, but I know that the majority does not.

.... What are we arguing about again ???

[Guest trancepriest]

.... What are we arguing about again ???

I think you were responding to SOTU's nonsensical ramblings. He said Miami was a first class city... with citizens at the ready to field any emergency. Then he went on to refute his own statements by mentioning how the county's emergency operator was fired because she did such a poor job handling hurricane Andrew. I think that sums it up.

O I forgot that he lied by saying a few months later Kate Hale was fired... it was three years later.

10 years ago, her angry plea got hurricane aid moving:

http://www.sptimes.com/2002/webspecials02/andrew/day3/story1.shtml

Excerpt:

Three days after Hurricane Andrew struck, thousands of people in south Dade County were desperate for food and water. They swarmed the few relief trucks that arrived, but many left empty-handed.

Andrew had been the most destructive natural disaster in U.S. history and the federal government was nowhere in sight.

Then Kate Hale spoke up.

"Where in the hell is the cavalry on this one?" Dade's emergency management director asked at a news conference, her voice filled with exasperation. "They keep saying we're going to get supplies. For God's sake, where are they?"

---------

3rd point….

As for pro player stadium and food stocks…..THANK YOU for bringing that up…what happened in NO will never happen in Mia because CITIZENS are prepared to take care of themselves or evacuate on time to designated shelters. Florida citizens are much more prepared to take care of themselves rather that wait for DA’ GUBMIN’T to save them. New Orleans is a poor city w/ very, very dependant population.

"Enough is enough. Quit playing like a bunch of kids. Where in the hell is the cavalry? For God’s sakes, where are they? We are going to have more casualties, because we are going to have more people dehydrated. People without water. People without food. Babies without formula. If we do not get more food into the south end of Dade County in a very short period of time, we are going to have more casualties!

We have a catastrophic disaster. We are essentially the walking wounded. We have appealed through the State to the Federal Government. We’ve had a lot of people down here for press conferences, but Dade County is on its own. Dade County is being caught in the middle of something and we are being victimized. Quit playing like a bunch of kids and get us aid! Sort out your political games afterward!

We are all about ready to drop, and the reinforcements are not getting in fast enough. We need better National Guard down here…President Bush was down here. I’d like him to follow up on the commitments he made." --- KATE HALE the emergency director of Dade County, Fla., when Hurricane Andrew struck there on Aug. 24, 1992

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At the time Bush's father was in office. History repeating itself... HELL YEAH. Kanye West had it all wrong.. its not that the Bush family doesn't like black people... they just hate all poor people.

[B-SIDE1414779017]

Bside, I've been thru a major flood my self, I know what it is like. It was the 100 year flood after Hurricane Floyd, some might remember my school ECU beating the U at NC State, since our town was flooded out..

The problem is this, your family has lived there their whole lives. 10, 20, 30, 50, 60 years, living under sea level for the most part, and in that 10, 20, 30, 50, 60 years, no one had a plan on how to get out?? No resources?

To top it off, they vote Nagin back in, who let those buses sit there?

Personal responsibility is lacking in the hurricane destroyed areas.. If you rely on the goverment you will get screwed.

If Clinton was in office, FEMA would have done just as poor job as this admins FEMA...

Then think about this. Take those who stayed, then divide them up. Those who could have gotten out but CHOOSE to stay, and those who couldn't get out. We wasted so much time, money and resources bailing people out who could have very easily gotten out.

Most of what you say I can tolerate but to think that Clinton would have put such a poor candidate for head of FEMA & Homeland Sec. is completely off and those two positions had a lot to do with the slow response... (along w/ the mayor, gov & president who was still touring the globe)

[V. Barbarino]

Bside, I've been thru a major flood my self, I know what it is like. It was the 100 year flood after Hurricane Floyd, some might remember my school ECU beating the U at NC State, since our town was flooded out..

The problem is this, your family has lived there their whole lives. 10, 20, 30, 50, 60 years, living under sea level for the most part, and in that 10, 20, 30, 50, 60 years, no one had a plan on how to get out?? No resources?

To top it off, they vote Nagin back in, who let those buses sit there?

Personal responsibility is lacking in the hurricane destroyed areas.. If you rely on the goverment you will get screwed.

If Clinton was in office, FEMA would have done just as poor job as this admins FEMA...

Then think about this. Take those who stayed, then divide them up. Those who could have gotten out but CHOOSE to stay, and those who couldn't get out. We wasted so much time, money and resources bailing people out who could have very easily gotten out.

Most of what you say I can tolerate but to think that Clinton would have put such a poor candidate for head of FEMA & Homeland Sec. is completely off and those two positions had a lot to do with the slow response... (along w/ the mayor, gov & president who was still touring the globe)

People who never have been in a flood don't get the destruction it brings. I've seen 1500 pound dead pigs floating by my house. The smell, the mold, dieseases, etc is beyond description. People think you hose shit off and it's ok, heck no, your best bet is to burn everything, it's 100% worthless. I literally saved my friends the morning of my flood. I got up early, not knowing the dams broke, and went for a bike ride, what I saw alarmed me, that I banged on the doors of all my friends, 2 hours later, their places were gone.

The best example of the flood is something I've seen with my own eyes. Months after I the flood, I went on my roomates brother's boat, down the river behind my house, the very river that flooded the whole town, in the top of one of the huge oak trees, had to be 50 feet up, maybe more, was a keg. How did a keg get that high? If floated that high and got wedged in a tree.

So B, I know what it's like, but I also know what it's like to rally with your friends and family and pull thru. I know what it's like sitting on your front lawn, hoping the water stops, while a cop drives up and says, " the plants going under, get ready", well shotguns in hand we knew we were alone, no water, power, food, police, fire etc, so we stuck together and make it thru it.

All I saw in NO was people not working together and making it a race issue. I gave money to the NO relief fund, but I'm not going blame others for what is clearly a local goverment and community problem with that storm. The Feds didn't fail, the locals failed well before the Feds failed.

[Guest trancepriest]

All I saw in NO was people not working together and making it a race issue. I gave money to the NO relief fund, but I'm not going blame others for what is clearly a local goverment and community problem with that storm. The Feds didn't fail, the locals failed well before the Feds failed.

I agree with you that the community had major problems. The people got complacent and seem not to realize the danger... even though two great floods had happened in the region. So yes your right... the city should have done a better job evacuating its people. The state/city leadership made major mistakes.

But to say the feds didn't fail is wrong. The feds failed big time. The feds failed before the hurricane even happened.

[Guest slamminshaun]

But to say the feds didn't fail is wrong. The feds failed big time. The feds failed before the hurricane even happened.

Like I said, there's plenty of blame to go around....for everyone! People like Spike Lee get so caught up in trying to amplify as much blame as they can toward Bush, they lose sight of what really happened. I don't recall Spike Lee even mentioning the hundreds of school buses that sat there and ultimately became flooded out. Why not? Don't you think that's worth mentioning? He thought it was important to bring up stupid shit like Condoleeza Rice shopping for shoes a few days after the storm.

[V. Barbarino]

They were talking about katrina on cnn just now, did you know that the line of the storm pointed right at NO 4 DAYS BEFORE IT HIT AND IT ALSO HIT FLORIDA???

Yet no one got out..

Today is the 14 Anniversary of Andrew, a storm that missed NO by only 100 miles...

[Guest coach]

Well, one reason that people did not leave was because they had been told that the levees would hold. Most of the damage to NO was from the flood, not from the hurricane. Other, smaller towns, were devastated just by the hurricane and the storm surge, but not NO. There the vast, vast majority of the damage and death was caused by the floods. By the time the dykes broke, it was pretty much too late to get out, the waters came too fast. Plus, since the hurricane had just blown through, much of the communications infrastructure was down, so even if there had been time to get out, there was no way to let the people know they needed to leave.

[V. Barbarino]

Well, one reason that people did not leave was because they had been told that the levees would hold. Most of the damage to NO was from the flood, not from the hurricane. Other, smaller towns, were devastated just by the hurricane and the storm surge, but not NO. There the vast, vast majority of the damage and death was caused by the floods. By the time the dykes broke, it was pretty much too late to get out, the waters came too fast. Plus, since the hurricane had just blown through, much of the communications infrastructure was down, so even if there had been time to get out, there was no way to let the people know they needed to leave.

Coach, let start over.

Hi, you live in NO, 10 feet under sea level, you are told your wholE life the dykes can stop a cat 3, BUT a cat 5 storm is 4 days away comming str8 for you, while 6 days before it hit florida, causing 6 deaths and massive flooding, WHAT DO YOU DO?

In those 4 days, were there no communication? In those 4 days did they re enforce the dykes to withstand a massive cat 5 storm? In those 4 days, did people gamble and think it would not hit NO?

Coach, it's called common sense, and the people of NO have none! I went to the west coast for hurricane wilma, which was basically a t storm, these people sat there living under sea level with a cat 5 storm comming and they did nothing!

[Guest coach]

Hmmm... I thought that most New Orleanites believed that the levees would hold for any hurricane?

[V. Barbarino]

Hmmm... I thought that most New Orleanites believed that the levees would hold for any hurricane?

Great I have a bridge and some swamp land to sell to them.

[Guest coach]

Hmmm... I thought that most New Orleanites believed that the levees would hold for any hurricane?

Great I have a bridge and some swamp land to sell to them.

LOL! Well, obviously they already bought into the swampland deal. Of course, so did we...