Your downtown noise violation update.

[Guest pod]

Risk their lives? It's not exactly Fallujah down there. You've risked your life before for real, you should know the difference. The area's dangerous, certainly, but I don't think I've ever been in a life threatening situation on 11th Street. Upscale people ended up not going to Nocturnal for a variety of reasons, most of which was convenience. The upscale crowd generally lives on South Beach, so they chose not to go across the bridge, since they already had upscale venues close by. Convenience. I spend a lot of time Downtown due to business, and also convenience. The crowd and scene I document generally tends to go to places like Space, Pawn Shop, and Twilo. I venture beachside when needed, but right now, there's maybe 2 or 3 venues/parties that are within the scope of my interest.

The reason Space, Nocturnal, and all the other clubs have come and gone from that neighborhood isn't due to the fact that the neighbors can't complain, it was due to the fact that the government provided incentives for them to do so, grants, tax breaks, and unrestricted closing times. LP took a chance seven years ago, and it panned out for him. Others followed suit after he did, and hoped to make it as well. Most didn't, a select few did. If the incentive was to build on South Beach, by the airport, or West Dade, there'd be clubs in those areas.

[V. Barbarino]

So now tech is justifying crime, lol... We've reached a new low..

WARNING ANYONE WHO WANTS TO DO BUSINESS IN OVER TOWN, THE CITIZENS HAVE THE RIGHT TO COMMIT CRIMES AGAINST YOU!

[Guest pod]

The "oh they can afford it" mentality that the kid Dade spoke about is half the reason businesses are hesitant to open in that area. When the locals have that attitude, who wants to risk investment? It's a vicious cycle.

[Guest addictedtospace]

The "oh they can afford it" mentality that the kid Dade spoke about is half the reason businesses are hesitant to open in that area. When the locals have that attitude, who wants to risk investment? It's a vicious cycle.

The most upsetting thing to me is when racism, poverty and discrimination is used as a green light or justification for crime.

[Guest pod]

Yep. Once or twice a week, a homeless person will make that claim to me when I'm waiting for the bus outside of the office, here on glittery South Beach, no less. "Come on, you've got that nice watch/phone/other object you can afford it!"

[Guest JustDade]

That's a pretty frustrating story, Dade. Thanks for taking the time to post it. It's sad and ironic that it was residents from the Habitat homes who robbed your office after you personally donated to have them built. I'd be pissed too.

I was shocked. I believed that Habitat was like Extreme Makeover Home Edition in that everyone who got help was deserving. Not only that but I actually thought that anyone I helped like that would appreciate it enough not to rob the people right across the street.

So you gave up on the idea of affordable housing?

You created an "upscale" venue in the middle of a poverty-stricken area in order to make a buck, where people didn't have the clout to complain about your noise. You were obviously moving into a high-crime area when you decided to build there. Did you employ any locals or did you just plunk a posh multimillion-dollar venue in their midst and tell them that they're not allowed inside? You took from the neighborhood and the neighborhood predictably took back from you. You can't claim to be surprised.

I stood there in your empty shell of a club when you were showing it off before it was ever built, thinking, "Damn there is no way my upscale friends are going to risk their lives to visit this posh nightclub in this high-crime area, what the hell are they thinking?" I know that I'm no smarter than you are so I know that you were aware of that fact at the time as well.

What the fuck are you talking about? I took from them so they took from me? Way to get off-topic. We were not talking about the "neighborhood." We were talking about the people who receive help from Habitat For Humanity and whether they deserve the help or not.

By the way, I did not "take from the neighborhood." I gave to the neighborhood. We invested in the neighborhood. We brought police presence to the neighborhood. The neighbors were allowed inside as long as they adhered to the same dress code as everyone else. We never asked anyone where they lived as a condition of entry. Several of our employees were neighborhood residents. During the construction I instructed our contractor to use the local "homeless" for any odd jobs that could be done by unskilled labor as a way of giving back. We spent tens of thousands of dollars that way. For you to make those statements is absurd and ignorant.

But, back to the subject at hand.....

No, I have not given up on the idea of affordable housing and I still believe that what Habitat does is good in principle. What I have given up on is giving blindly and hoping that the organization I give to does their homework.

What shocked me was the complete lack of gratitude for the amazing advantage they were given. What disgusted me was the sense of entitlement they had to believe that they were somehow justified in stealing from me because they didn't have computers and I did. Plain and simple...these people were not deserving of what they were given and not they have messed it up for others as I will give no more.

The worst part is that this was not a case of one bad apple. It was not a case of youth led astray either. It was the entire families of three houses in a row. Coincidence? I think not.

[Guest pod]

I remember when you told me this initially, my first reaction was the same. I thought it was just some kids, but when you told me that multiple people from the neighborhood were playing lookout and cursing at you, then my feelings changed. I think HH does good work, they just need to be more selective as to who they help, and also monitor for stuff like this afterwards.

[Guest endymion]

Did you employ any locals or did you just plunk a posh multimillion-dollar venue in their midst and tell them that they're not allowed inside?

Several of our employees were neighborhood residents. During the construction I instructed our contractor to use the local "homeless" for any odd jobs that could be done by unskilled labor as a way of giving back. We spent tens of thousands of dollars that way.

That's interesting. Jab officially retracted. Many apologies.

I feel your pain from that sour experience, but Barbarino is using your bad experience to smear all of Habitat for Humanity, affordable housing in general, and black culture. That's as wrong and ignorant as me picking on you for not creating local jobs when actually you did. Barbarino came out in strong opposition in a nightlife forum against -- Habitat for Humanity? Because they threaten Karu & Y? Seriously now let's take a step back and think about that one and I'm sure you can understand why I would defend an organization that I've put my own sweat into. No nightlife venue anywhere is more important than affordable housing.

No, I have not given up on the idea of affordable housing and I still believe that what Habitat does is good in principle. What I have given up on is giving blindly and hoping that the organization I give to does their homework.

Interesting and I see your point.

The worst part is that this was not a case of one bad apple. It was not a case of youth led astray either. It was the entire families of three houses in a row. Coincidence? I think not.

What you meant by "I think not" wasn't clear. The entire families were criminal by nature? Or the neighborhood?

It's ironic that Space and Nocturnal are up in arms about "their" neighborhood changing as new condo arrivals show up. Space and Nocturnal and the highway that feed traffic into them displaced somebody elses' neighborhood, people who were there for 150 years. We see terrace supporters in the CJ forums every week bitching about how Space and Nocturnal were there first so the new condo residents 'knew what to expect' when they moved into the neighborhood. You moved into a high-crime, proverty-stricken neighborhood looking for profit. Why should we feel sympathy when you're the victim of crime, or when somebody new comes into the neighborhood after you seeking even bigger profit?

When I first moved to Miami, my wife's family owned the lot just north of PS14 (across the street) because they used to own the grocery store on it. If I had built my house in the middle of that neighborhood, parked my BMW outside, handed a dollar bill to every homeless person that I saw, and then bitched when one of those homeless people stole my car, you would all call me an idiot.

[V. Barbarino]

My hatred of HH has zero to do with a night club. I'm not getting up at 7am on a saturday so I can build shawana a house when I have friends who are Vets who deserve the houses more.

[Guest coach]

The inability of otherwise smart people to understand the poverty issue is amble evidence of its complexity. Certainly, even Techjunkie is going to be able to amply educate everyone in a few short sentences on a nightlife (or any other) forum.

[Guest endymion]

My hatred of HH has zero to do with a night club. I'm not getting up at 7am on a saturday so I can build shawana a house when I have friends who are Vets who deserve the houses more.

We already knew that you were a racist before this thread but thanks for reminding us every once in a while. You really believe that your Italian family experienced hardships on the level of the people in Overtown. That would be funny if it weren't so sad. You're a privileged white guy who has had opportunities handed to you for your entire life. People in Overtown don't get those opportunities. They just keep getting pushed further and further into the Everglades.

Before 1900 they could live just to the west of the white people who had waterfront homes, but of course not on the water itself. Then at the turn of the century they had to move to the west of the railroad tracks. Now you're telling them to move further west to accomodate some night clubs, and maybe a baseball stadium. The whole time you're baffled as to what could possibly be offensive about that idea since 'everybody has the same basic opportunities right?'.

[Guest pod]

Poverty is a complex issue. Especially here in Miami. There's no one reason as to why someone is poor or destitute. I've personally seen people go from making a decent living, to literally being on the streets in six months from a variety of issues. Government inaction, ignorance from the upper strata, there's too many issues to go into. Even those 'in touch' with the issue like Tech seems to be, are maybe seeing a quarter of the issue, if that.

[V. Barbarino]

The inability of otherwise smart people to understand the poverty issue is amble evidence of its complexity. Certainly, even Techjunkie is going to be able to amply educate everyone in a few short sentences on a nightlife (or any other) forum.

I have a degree in economics, I think I understand poverty from an economic standpoint.

1. don't have kids out of wed lock

2. don't commit crimes

3. get an education

4. learn english

5. go to college or learn a trade

6. Root for the jets

not too difficult!

[Guest musicalmissionary]

The inability of otherwise smart people to understand the poverty issue is amble evidence of its complexity. Certainly, even Techjunkie is going to be able to amply educate everyone in a few short sentences on a nightlife (or any other) forum.

I have a degree in economics, I think I understand poverty from an economic standpoint.

1. don't have kids out of wed lock

2. don't commit crimes

3. get an education

4. learn english

5. go to college or learn a trade

6. Root for the jets

not too difficult!

you missed

7. don't be born into poverty (it severely limits your chances)

[V. Barbarino]

My hatred of HH has zero to do with a night club. I'm not getting up at 7am on a saturday so I can build shawana a house when I have friends who are Vets who deserve the houses more.

We already knew that you were a racist before this thread but thanks for reminding us every once in a while. You really believe that your Italian family experienced hardships on the level of the people in Overtown. That would be funny if it weren't so sad. You're a privileged white guy who has had opportunities handed to you for your entire life. People in Overtown don't get those opportunities. They just keep getting pushed further and further into the Everglades.

Before 1900 they could live just to the west of the white people who had waterfront homes, but of course not on the water itself. Then at the turn of the century they had to move to the west of the railroad tracks. Now you're telling them to move further west to accomodate some night clubs, and maybe a baseball stadium. The whole time you're baffled as to what could possibly be offensive about that idea since 'everybody has the same basic opportunities right?'.

Get on a boat with nothing come to this country and make a life for yourself. That's what the Irish and Italians did and they succeeded.

Another group of people did this as well, you may have heard of them, they are known as Cubans! Racism? Nope realism yes.

How about Asians?

How about Jews?

Do me a favor stop calling me a racist, because it's evident from how other minorities came to this country and flourished that the black community is to blame and only to blame for their problems. Their parents succeeded when they had no rights, their kids have squandered everything.

[Guest endymion]

Even those 'in touch' with the issue like Tech seems to be, are maybe seeing a quarter of the issue, if that.

I don't claim to be 'in touch' with the poverty issue. I've raised money and volunteered with a hammer for Habitat to appease some White Guilt but that's about it. All I know is that I never would have had the opportunities that I did if I had grown up in Overtown. I started a company when I was 19 with $500 that made millions of dollars that I still run today. I'm not rich because of the Dot-Com crash but in my position I know that I'll have the same opportunities for my whole life so no big deal, no fear. As an educated white kid in a good-ole-boy state I had the ability to raise myself up from my bootstraps like Barbarino and I know how to do it over and over as many times as I need for my whole life. Not everybody has that option. My home town (Melbourne, FL) has/had an area exactly like "Colored Town" just west of the same Flagler railroad track, and I know that I would not be living in a condo on South Beach and posting messages to a nightlife forum all afternoon if I had grown up on that side of the tracks.

[Guest endymion]

Do me a favor stop calling me a racist, because it's evident from how other minorities came to this country and flourished that the black community is to blame and only to blame for their problems. Their parents succeeded when they had no rights, their kids have squandered everything.

This started when you started trying to rally nightlife supporters against Habitat for Humanity in the name of Karu & Y. Somebody please ask Leonard Pitts whether you exposed yourself as a racist at that point, or if it was not until later when you made the crack about Shawana who doesn't deserve to live in a house.

2. So last week, I'm in Miami for meetings for my job and the Habitat for Humanity wants my company to do a build in over town. So the chick doing the talk, spoke about how they built 50 places in over town and even when they are done HH helps the neighbors with quality of life issues and then she said "and there is a night club keeping everyone awake that will be addressed soon", she was talking about Karu and Y.

BTW, I'm dead against HH, they give houses to poor people who don't deserve them, in fact Dade can tell a great story about why HH is crap. If you want me to build a house, sure I'll help, but I'm not building some poor persons house because they made bad choices in life and don't deserve it, now if it was a veteran or a deceased soldiers family something along those lines, then sign me up, but I'm not going to help Shawanda and her 15 kids to a free house. I know of way more deserving people. IMHO.

So it's HH verse Karu and Y and 10 Museum Park and Greg Mermelli vs Noc and Space.

[Guest pod]

I think everyone knows that by now. Why some people think it has gone away is simple, since the media goes out of it's way to portray black American success stories, while ignoring the string of abject failures. For every Tiger Woods, there's thousands who make a tiny fraction of a percent of what he does.

At the end of the day, the poverty issue needs to be addressed. Like Dade said, he used local labor for menial tasks, and compensated them accordingly. Other venues in the area do as well. I'm in the neighborhood all the time, and I've personally seen the upstanding venues in the area pay for a homeless guy to sweep the streets after closing, and then some. Not sure why it hasn't happened yet, but the clubs need to make light of the fact that they help the community. Because right now, the clubs are demonized almost as much as the homeless are.

[V. Barbarino]

Do me a favor stop calling me a racist, because it's evident from how other minorities came to this country and flourished that the black community is to blame and only to blame for their problems. Their parents succeeded when they had no rights, their kids have squandered everything.

This started when you started trying to rally nightlife supporters against Habitat for Humanity in the name of Karu & Y. Somebody please ask Leonard Pitts whether you exposed yourself as a racist at that point, or if it was not until later when you made the crack about Shawana who doesn't deserve to live in a house.

2. So last week, I'm in Miami for meetings for my job and the Habitat for Humanity wants my company to do a build in over town. So the chick doing the talk, spoke about how they built 50 places in over town and even when they are done HH helps the neighbors with quality of life issues and then she said "and there is a night club keeping everyone awake that will be addressed soon", she was talking about Karu and Y.

BTW, I'm dead against HH, they give houses to poor people who don't deserve them, in fact Dade can tell a great story about why HH is crap. If you want me to build a house, sure I'll help, but I'm not building some poor persons house because they made bad choices in life and don't deserve it, now if it was a veteran or a deceased soldiers family something along those lines, then sign me up, but I'm not going to help Shawanda and her 15 kids to a free house. I know of way more deserving people. IMHO.

So it's HH verse Karu and Y and 10 Museum Park and Greg Mermelli vs Noc and Space.

My HH opinion had nothing to do with Karu and Y, in fact I think what Karu and Y is doing is wrong.

[Guest musicalmissionary]

Get on a boat with nothing come to this country and make a life for yourself. That's what the Irish and Italians did and they succeeded.

Another group of people did this as well, you may have heard of them, they are known as Cubans! Racism? Nope realism yes.

How about Asians?

How about Jews?

If you think the challenges faced by all these groups are equal... you're just a plain fool... but we all know that by now. How much institutionalized discrimination did those other groups face?

After the initial waves of WHITE European immigrants came and set up shop... it wasn't all that hard for future waves to come over and have a good starting point.

[Guest pod]

Thing is though, would the residents really complain? Like I said before, excepting Dade's bad experience, most people in the HH program tend to be a bit more grounded than the condo dwellers, and a semi-noisy nightclub is the least of their concerns, as they're just happy to have a viable place to live in.

[Guest addictedtospace]

My hatred of HH has zero to do with a night club. I'm not getting up at 7am on a saturday so I can build shawana a house when I have friends who are Vets who deserve the houses more.

We already knew that you were a racist before this thread but thanks for reminding us every once in a while. You really believe that your Italian family experienced hardships on the level of the people in Overtown. That would be funny if it weren't so sad. You're a privileged white guy who has had opportunities handed to you for your entire life. People in Overtown don't get those opportunities. They just keep getting pushed further and further into the Everglades.

Before 1900 they could live just to the west of the white people who had waterfront homes, but of course not on the water itself. Then at the turn of the century they had to move to the west of the railroad tracks. Now you're telling them to move further west to accomodate some night clubs, and maybe a baseball stadium. The whole time you're baffled as to what could possibly be offensive about that idea since 'everybody has the same basic opportunities right?'.

Do you know how many jobs a stadium can create? A typical stadium can have some where around 1500 event day employees. I personally doubt a baseball player is going to sell me nuts at my seat or clean the bathrooms after Barbarino drinks ten Amstel lights. Now if the problem is we do not want to work and just receive all these free social services, then I understand Nick's point completely. <---- RARE.

[Guest pod]

That's the thing, a lot of people just want a handout, not offer something in return.

[Guest jkfunkee]

this is some update, huh?

late,

j.

[Guest JustDade]

Techjunkie....ARE YOU SERIOUS???????

You said:

"You moved into a high-crime, proverty-stricken neighborhood looking for profit. Why should we feel sympathy when you're the victim of crime, or when somebody new comes into the neighborhood after you seeking even bigger profit?

When I first moved to Miami, my wife's family owned the lot just north of PS14 (across the street) because they used to own the grocery store on it. If I had built my house in the middle of that neighborhood, parked my BMW outside, handed a dollar bill to every homeless person that I saw, and then bitched when one of those homeless people stole my car, you would all call me an idiot."

Sounds very racist to me. You would rather believe that the people in that neighborhood are thieves and no matter how good we are for the neighborhood or how many jobs we provide we deserve to be robbed because we were stupid enough to invest there? Well I would rather believe that the people in that neighborhood should welcome investment. They should understand that with that investment comes jobs and more police to curtail crime and better schools to accommodate the children of those new condo dwellers. Not to mention cleaner streets and a host of other benefits. But maybe you're right.