BUSH IS A TOTAL IDIOT! I can't believe some of you voted for him... LOL

[Guest coach]

1st of all,,the Rep/Dem, Bush/Clinton stuff you get from me is in response to the posts which seem to blame everything on Bush/Repz. I'm not just trying to defend Bush/Repz, rather I'm illustrating the intellectual dishonesty in those who's entire view on things and all that is bad w/ America is "bush,bush,bush".

Um... you seem to keep forgetting that the conversation is about the war in Iraq. Clinton did not go to war in Iraq, so whatever his intel or not is relatively irrelevant.

Now maybe your point is that the Clinton administration gathered faulty information which the Bush administration then inherited. However, I'll reiterate that Clinton did not use that information to wage a badly managed war.

[Guest drlogic]

No disagreements on Shaun...I'm def. a fan.

If you don't like what or what I write, then you must be "repugnated"(i know, that's not a word) by what and how the other writes. Just trying to flip the script here is all.

It just amuses me how no one complains when the lefties rant w/ all sorts of personal hate...Yet when someone like me PURPOSELY gives 'em a dose of the same, then all of a sudden I'm the one who's not civil. My negative posts are a pure reflection of what people you probably agree w/ post. Just from another perspective.

I actually applaud you on this post. Nice job. Clear, to the point, w/ a little bite and subtle implications that i'm clueless w/out getting into the actual name calling. I HAVE NO PROBLEM W/ THIS POST. Thank you for exhalilng and trying the civil approach.

I wish it were as simple as Bush just listening to his generals. People hated him before he even became prez. The 2000 loss for Gore just brought out the worse in the left. Personally, I believe Bush, the man is a good and genuine person. Bush the president has failed me as a leader. Don't even ask me about the demz cause in my book most are down right treasonous.

Iran has always been the greatest threat in S.W. Asia. They are the father of terrorism. The reason we had troops in Saudi Arabia was to protect them(and our oil interests) from Iran and Saddam's Iraq.

Now that I know how you feel, what's your alternative? It's easy to critique after the fact. I would just like to hear other ideas on top of all the complaints. Void of any alternatives, the complaints just don't hold any water. IMHO. That's my beef w/ the critics....So, don't confuse my challenging of the critics as total support for our strategy.

[Guest slamminshaun]

No disagreements on Shaun...I'm def. a fan.

Awww shucks. :-*

the problem is immigrants that come to start shit in the name of terrorism, not the immigrants that come to earn a decent living or make something of themselves.

Hey Norah, got a quick question for you. How do you tell the difference between "immigrants than come to start shit" and "those who come to earn a living" if they come here illegally?

[Guest coach]

the problem is immigrants that come to start shit in the name of terrorism' date=' not the immigrants that come to earn a decent living or make something of themselves.

[/quote']

Hey Norah, got a quick question for you. How do you tell the difference between "immigrants than come to start shit" and "those who come to earn a living" if they come here illegally?

How do you tell the difference if they come legally? How do you tell the difference if they are born here?

[Guest slamminshaun]

the problem is immigrants that come to start shit in the name of terrorism, not the immigrants that come to earn a decent living or make something of themselves.

Hey Norah, got a quick question for you. How do you tell the difference between "immigrants than come to start shit" and "those who come to earn a living" if they come here illegally?

How do you tell the difference if they come legally? How do you tell the difference if they are born here?

Norah said immigrants are the problem. I'm just asking her to expand on it some...

But to answer your question, I suppose immigrants who come here legally probably go through background/criminal checks while illegals certainly don't.

[Guest web_norah]

the problem is immigrants that come to start shit in the name of terrorism, not the immigrants that come to earn a decent living or make something of themselves.

Hey Norah, got a quick question for you. How do you tell the difference between "immigrants than come to start shit" and "those who come to earn a living" if they come here illegally?

How do you tell the difference if they come legally? How do you tell the difference if they are born here?

you can't

thats why the INS changed stateside right after 9/11 and now people get fingerprinted, etc.

and for the record, the 9/11 men on those planes came as students all of them from different countries...so there is no way to gage who is coming to do what..... profiling people is probably what might work best, sort of what Israel does (and they also still have problems).

there is no perfect formula to this and once again, I DID NOT SAY immigration is the real problem

the USA dropped the ball, fucked up royally by invading the wrong country, why is that such a hard concept to grasp Shaun?

[Guest RzO]

the problem is immigrants that come to start shit in the name of terrorism, not the immigrants that come to earn a decent living or make something of themselves.

Hey Norah, got a quick question for you. How do you tell the difference between "immigrants than come to start shit" and "those who come to earn a living" if they come here illegally?

How do you tell the difference if they come legally? How do you tell the difference if they are born here?

you can't

thats why the INS changed stateside right after 9/11 and now people get fingerprinted, etc.

and for the record, the 9/11 men on those planes came as students all of them from different countries...so there is no way to gage who is coming to do what..... profiling people is probably what might work best, sort of what Israel does (and they also still have problems).

there is no perfect formula to this and once again, I DID NOT SAY immigration is the real problem

the USA dropped the ball, fucked up royally by invading the wrong country, why is that such a hard concept to grasp Shaun?

that is it, we are doing something that doesn't matter . Iraq does nothing for us but hurt everyone. End of story, and pretty much the catch all to Bush's faults. Supporting the troops is one thing, i was all for that, but keeping this on is ridiculous, even if we are making progress it's no where to the extent that it is costing us.

[Guest slamminshaun]

the USA dropped the ball, fucked up royally by invading the wrong country, why is that such a hard concept to grasp Shaun?

Grasp? I have three family members who have been dodging bullets in Iraq! How about you? I'd say I grasp the situation pretty well thank you.

[Guest RzO]

the USA dropped the ball' date=' fucked up royally by invading the wrong country, why is that such a hard concept to grasp Shaun?

[/quote']

Grasp? I have three family members who have been dodging bullets in Iraq! How about you? I'd say I grasp the situation pretty well thank you.

That is some hardcore shit. I have 3 friends there and I hate it, I truly think it needs to end, and after consulting with 2 of my friends who have been there and are back, one who was shot in the face, they all are like its worthless. We are going nowhere. Mind you these guys were all gung ho bush and co. before, they went they saw and now they have completely different opinions.

Like I have said, im not one to be all fuck the war lets not take care of our troops. that is always precedence. The idea is to start to move us out so we wont have to worry about them, they can all be here, shit you could be hanging out with ur family members instead of wondering whether you will ever hear from them again.

Its hard to differentiate between some who just talk shit about it, and others who know and believe in something. Its worse than vietnam, not casualty wise but sure as hell diplomatically and a hell of alot worse financially for all of us. This topic tears parties apart, and now has torn the GOP apart, that in itself is reason for concern by anyone.

[Guest swirlundergrounder]

BUSH IS STILL AN TOTAL IDIOT! I can't believe some of you voted for him... LOL

[Guest web_norah]

the USA dropped the ball' date=' fucked up royally by invading the wrong country, why is that such a hard concept to grasp Shaun?

[/quote']

Grasp? I have three family members who have been dodging bullets in Iraq! How about you? I'd say I grasp the situation pretty well thank you.

troop support is one thing

don't twist my message around by giving me the troop bullet dodging ...i was AGAINST it all....so now what? keep encouraging more bloodshed and gain/ accomplish ___________ ?

[Guest jamu]

I don't buy that argument at all and find it extremely fallacious. That you cannot be against the administration and be pro troops. I am an avid fan of our armed forces they do an amazing job daily in protecting this country. But to understand that, they are not protecting our country by being in Iraqi because of no fault of their own is also commendable and should be understandable. I thank god for every troop and peace of armed gear we have. I feel bad they are being killed and destroyed daily for no real justified reason. Sad.

And that is were every American should feel angry and enraged. That our young are being killed daily, threaten, and put in danger because of our president. To support him, is to support the endangerment of our troops. And to dishonor their very reason for being. That is every liberal and just plain Americans right. And I do feel that people that voted for Bush voted for just that. To keep our troops in harms way, and to support their continued endangerment. And that was the worst vote any American could have cast.

[Guest drlogic]

the USA dropped the ball, fucked up royally by invading the wrong country, why is that such a hard concept to grasp Shaun?

Grasp? I have three family members who have been dodging bullets in Iraq! How about you? I'd say I grasp the situation pretty well thank you.

That is some hardcore shit. I have 3 friends there and I hate it, I truly think it needs to end, and after consulting with 2 of my friends who have been there and are back, one who was shot in the face, they all are like its worthless. We are going nowhere. Mind you these guys were all gung ho bush and co. before, they went they saw and now they have completely different opinions.

Like I have said, im not one to be all fuck the war lets not take care of our troops. that is always precedence. The idea is to start to move us out so we wont have to worry about them, they can all be here, shit you could be hanging out with ur family members instead of wondering whether you will ever hear from them again.

Its hard to differentiate between some who just talk shit about it, and others who know and believe in something. Its worse than vietnam, not casualty wise but sure as hell diplomatically and a hell of alot worse financially for all of us. This topic tears parties apart, and now has torn the GOP apart, that in itself is reason for concern by anyone.

I respect u'r opinion, although I strongly disagree. Your mention of Vietnam and this being worse is SO OFF BASE I wouldn't know where to start. Asided from my dad (22yrs Army retired) who served 2 tours in vietnam, I also took an amazing class on S.E. Asia. The poltics of that war were 10x worse. Let me give a few examples: draft, death rate(at it's peak, we were losing 500 soldiers/per week), mandatory cease fires, no bombing zones, vc(farmer by day, soldier by night),etc....Back then we were trying to stop the spread of communism in the region. Today the enemy is terrorist. We didn't have to worry about the VC or NVA following us back to America either. The cause was noble, the way the polititicians tied the military's hands was despicable.

Our military is the baddest on the planet....If our politrixta's just took off the muzzles and leashes and let our boys/girls do what they do, we would be much more successful. But they try to walk that line b/w political and military strategy and they wind up getting more people killed over a longer period of time than need be.

We pulled out of Vietnam and millions were slaughtered in the south and Cambodia. I repeat,,MILLIONS!!!!We can expect the same in Iraq if we do so(which were not gonna do. We're not leaving Iraq any time soon regardless who's running America).

Again, I've yet to hear alternatives that have not already been tried and failed. Why is it so hard for the critics to take a stab at that? I hear ya! The world hears ya'. We get it. You want out. So what's your plan? It's like pulling teeth w/ you folks.

lol I just had a passing thought....excuse me for thinking aloud, but these critics remind me of dealing w/ my wife sometimes.....like when we're gonna go out for dinner....she says she's hungry but doesn't know what she wants to eat. She keeps complaining that she's starving, but not telling me what she wants to eat...I keep bringing up suggestion only to hear her complain about every one w/out ever trying to think of a place herself......'till I get fed up and say "you know what, fuck it! i'm making a frozen pizza to hell w/ it. Point being, complaining is easy! There's no responsibility and it probably makes you feel better to vent,,,but it's still adds nothing to the debate until you're able to recommend an alternative. There's nothing brave or patriotic in these complaints. It's easy. So f'ing easy. Stop dipping your toe in the water and jump in already.

If you think the GOP is fractured, then the Demz are what? Cause they've come unhinged. So much so that it's almost impossible to tell the differnce between Osama last tapes and TODAY's democratic party and message. Both are essentially locked @ the hip. How can one say the support the troops while simultaneously providing fodder for the terrorist?

[Guest trancepriest]

Your history is all fucked up. We bombed Cambodia illegally... killing hundred of thousands of Cambodians. This action also destabilized their government and brought in the Pol Pot regime. We also killed over a million Vietnamese and now our biggest trading partner is a communist country.

[Guest drlogic]

Your history is all fucked up. We bombed Cambodia illegally... killing hundred of thousands of Cambodians. This action also destabilized their government and brought in the Pol Pot regime. We also killed over a million Vietnamese and now our biggest trading partner is a communist country.

Correct,,,we bombed the Ho Chi Minh trails which were being used supply arms and fighters to the VC in the south. We didn't just bomb those jungles cause we were bored?

#2, Correct on killing over 1 mill. Vietnamese, yet we still lost.

by you mentioning the loss of life in Cambodia and Vietnam, I can only assume you're equally devasted by the millions that were slaughtered when we pulled out? Do you feel for those folks too given that the pull out was DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for their deaths?

Finally note on this edit: Communsim isn't nearly the threat today that is was back then. Now, if it were the same threat it was duing the cold war and we still traded w/ them, then you would have a point.

[Guest trancepriest]

Vietnamese civilian casualties were in the order of 2 million to 5 million dead.

[Guest drlogic]

I don't buy that argument at all and find it extremely fallacious. That you cannot be against the administration and be pro troops. I am an avid fan of our armed forces they do an amazing job daily in protecting this country. But to understand that, they are not protecting our country by being in Iraqi because of no fault of their own is also commendable and should be understandable. I thank god for every troop and peace of armed gear we have. I feel bad they are being killed and destroyed daily for no real justified reason. Sad.

And that is were every American should feel angry and enraged. That our young are being killed daily, threaten, and put in danger because of our president. To support him, is to support the endangerment of our troops. And to dishonor their very reason for being. That is every liberal and just plain Americans right. And I do feel that people that voted for Bush voted for just that. To keep our troops in harms way, and to support their continued endangerment. And that was the worst vote any American could have cast.

I don't think you and I see the threat terrorism poses the same. Actually, by your post I don't think you fully understand the threat at all.

So what's your plan?

[Guest trancepriest]

Finally note on this edit: Communsim isn't nearly the threat today that is was back then. Now, if it were the same threat it was duing the cold war and we still traded w/ them, then you would have a point.

Bilateral trade was resumed with China in 1979. Just 4 years after the war ended in Vietnam. The Cold War was still ongoing. China today is our largest military threat.

[Guest drlogic]

Was that when Nixon paid them a visit?

Business baby! That's what America is all about...apparently..$$$$$

[Guest trancepriest]

by you mentioning the loss of life in Cambodia and Vietnam, I can only assume you're equally devasted by the millions that were slaughtered when we pulled out? Do you feel for those folks too given that the pull out was DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for their deaths?

If you are referring to the millions of Cambodians killed by the Khmer Rouge then I will blame that on the destabilizing effects of our carpet bombing.

Historians have cited the U.S. intervention and bombing campaign (spanning 1965-1973) as a significant factor leading to increased support of the Khmer Rouge among the Cambodian peasantry. Historian Ben Kiernan and Taylor Owen have used a combination of sophisticated satellite mapping, recently unclassified data about the extent of bombing activities, and peasant testimony, to argue that there was a strong correlation between villages targeted by U.S. bombing and recruitment of peasants by the Khmer Rouge. Kiernan and Owen argue that "Civilian casualties in Cambodia drove an enraged populace into the arms of an insurgency that had enjoyed relatively little support until the bombing began,[3]. In his study of Pol Pot's rise to power, Kiernan argues that "Pol Pot's revolution would not have won power without U.S. economic and military destabilisation of Cambodia" and that the U.S. carpet bombing "was probably the most significant factor in Pol Pot's rise."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_rouge

[ryan2772]

lol I just had a passing thought....excuse me for thinking aloud, but these critics remind me of dealing w/ my wife sometimes.....like when we're gonna go out for dinner....she says she's hungry but doesn't know what she wants to eat. She keeps complaining that she's starving, but not telling me what she wants to eat...I keep bringing up suggestion only to hear her complain about every one w/out ever trying to think of a place herself......

haha so true. i feel ya on this.