A Minute of Silence

[kramadas]

Originally posted by laraver

Please look at the posts afer this. A

As stated before Osama has stated that he would like to establish a land for all people who follow Islam. It would be run under a single government, "The Caliphate".

Osama has stated that he would like this established in the area that is now occupied by countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen, Kuwait and others.

Those are all countries with their own governments.

A single government cannot exist without tearing down what exists now.

Check you facts, jack!

Not all that different from what the US did (and tried to do) in the past.

Where, in turn, the US would like to bolster a pupper govt that will supply nice, cheap oil.

Again, let me state (in case you skipped that part where I mentioned it in my previous posts), I believe Bin Laden and his associates have to be brought down...BUT then the US has to stop meddling with the affairs of the Middle East.

Thats how all this s**t started in the first place!

[sassa]

Originally posted by laraver

Sassa - You are spreading propaganda.

Fact: Osama and his Al-Quaida fundamentalists have stated that their goal is to unite all Islamic people around the world under a single Fundementalist form of government known as "The Caliphate"

In order to achieve this goal Coward-In-Chief Osama has embarked on a pursuit of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons. He has stated in addresses to his followers that he wishes to bring down the Saudi government, a legitimate government. Osama has stated that he is willing to essentially do whatever is necessary to destabilize and bring down governments who he perceives as influenced by too great a degree by "The West" He says that these governments are corrupt. Mullah Omar of the Taliban has stated that the goal "God willing" is the destruction and fall of the United States of America.

Who is Osama Bin Laden to be judge, jury and executioner for governments he does not like?

Now on to other issues. If you or anyone else chooses Islam as your faith and you choose to not listen to radios, not watch television, not fly kites, not buy products (Pop music, Blue Jeans, what ever else you view as unduly influenced by America and therefore corrupting) there is no governmental agency persecuting you for being a bad consumer. That is a fact.

You are free to reject these things and live how you choose. That is a fact.

On the other hand if you were to live under Osama's imagined "Caliphate" you would have someone watching your very move, action, listening to your conversations.

Stop helping Osama.

How sad it must be for you if you actually think I support Osama bin Laden. Seriously.

[tribal]

sassa, thats bullshit. US is not against Islam, how many times do we have to say that? yes, we are a nation of wealth and materialism, and you sassa, are in no position to critisise us for that. let me guess, you are a middle class, in your 20-30, live in a house/apartment furnished with nice things like comfortable couches, heating and a stereo system. you also drive a car, wear nice looking clothes and try to look nice through things that are made of material aka = materialism. you know, i lived in russia during the Communist regime, when the people had no choice in their clothing, no choice in their food, lodgings, transportation and many other things. i would never, ever want to go back for that system, this is also the way many of your so called opressed arab states live in. i dont give a shit what your religion/beliefs/ideology is, this is a basic rule = people want to live comfortably and securely. it isnt religion thats causing poorness, in fact, Islam welcomes and infact encourages wealth, wealth is considered positive because if you are wealthy, you can give more charity and spend more time devoting to allah. so cut the bullshit, this isnt about religion. this is about ideology, propaganda and pure inefficiency and incompetence on the part of many arab regimes. look at turkey, a muslim country, a relatively prosperous country as well. is it religion? no. its pure and simple economics and responsible policies. before you say your hackneyed and clicheed phrases of "US is the oppresor", "US is against Islam" or "Its the fault of US policies", do some research and see what the current mid east regimes' policies are. then compare.

[laraver]

If you have taken any time to follow Bin Laden's history, he became virulently anti-US during the Gulf War.

Osama offered his mujhadeen fighters as a barrier against Saddam Hussein's army which was poised to make a run into Saudi Arabia after taking over Kuwait.

The Saudi government essentially said "Thanks, but no thanks. The Americans have offered to protect us from Saddam and we think we will go with them."

Now that really pissed Osama off. The Saudi's would rather have the technological and miltary might of the world's remaining super-power, instead of his scruffy mujahadeen. He viewed the Saudi's as corrupt for choosing the US to defend them.

History shows that it was the right choice for the House of Saud.

How you interpret that as messing with MidEast politics is beyond me.

Another important and critical factor in the rise of Islamic Fundementalist terrorists is the funding of fundementalist schools by the very governments that they seek to bring down. As a way of appearing less influenced by the West many governments in the Arab world give generously to schools that teach nothing but this very backward version of Islam. In this way they attempt to say "Look at us, we support Islam as a faith!" What they fail to realize is that they are sowing the seeds of their own destruction and instability for the rest of the world.

[laraver]

Originally posted by sassa

How sad it must be for you if you actually think I support Osama bin Laden. Seriously.

Sassa - If you are going to start a debate you have to at least respond to the questions that are asked of you.

You said that America is against Islam. Where is the proof in your assertion?

"If you or anyone else chooses Islam as your faith and you choose to not listen to radios, not watch television, not fly kites, not buy products (Pop music, Blue Jeans, what ever else you view as unduly influenced by America and therefore corrupting) there is no governmental agency persecuting you for being a bad consumer. That is a fact"

Tell me one thing that refutes what I have written. You can't because it is true.

And now the question I really want you to answer Sassa:

"Sassa, let me ask you this, how many times are you willing to let someone punch you in the face before you defend yourself? Think about that, because that is a very good analogy for why we are fighting in Afghanistan now.

Kobar Towers in Saudi Arabia (one punch), USS Cole bombing (2 punches), WTC 1st bombing (3 punches), Mogadishu, Our soldiers drawn into an ambush while trying to ensure that starving people got the food aid sent from America (The Great Satan as Islamic Fundamentalist would have the world believe), not local warlords who wanted to horde it and did not care if their own people starved (4 punches), WTC 2nd bombing (5 + 6 punches), Pentagon (7 punches), Flight 93 hijack and crash(8 punches).

Would you let me punch you 8 times in the face without defending yourself?"

Anyway, I don't expect you to have an answer here either.

For all your pseudo-intellectualism you really have not put forth one solid solution to something that has to be dealt with.

[sassa]

Originally posted by tribal

sassa, thats bullshit. US is not against Islam, how many times do we have to say that? yes, we are a nation of wealth and materialism, and you sassa, are in no position to critisise us for that. let me guess, you are a middle class, in your 20-30, live in a house/apartment furnished with nice things like comfortable couches, heating and a stereo system. you also drive a car, wear nice looking clothes and try to look nice through things that are made of material aka = materialism. you know, i lived in russia during the Communist regime, when the people had no choice in their clothing, no choice in their food, lodgings, transportation and many other things. i would never, ever want to go back for that system, this is also the way many of your so called opressed arab states live in. i dont give a shit what your religion/beliefs/ideology is, this is a basic rule = people want to live comfortably and securely. it isnt religion thats causing poorness, in fact, Islam welcomes and infact encourages wealth, wealth is considered positive because if you are wealthy, you can give more charity and spend more time devoting to allah. so cut the bullshit, this isnt about religion. this is about ideology, propaganda and pure inefficiency and incompetence on the part of many arab regimes. look at turkey, a muslim country, a relatively prosperous country as well. is it religion? no. its pure and simple economics and responsible policies. before you say your hackneyed and clicheed phrases of "US is the oppresor", "US is against Islam" or "Its the fault of US policies", do some research and see what the current mid east regimes' policies are. then compare.

Cut the bullshit?With pleasure,only if you promise to do the same,my dear friend.By the way,all your generalizations about me are wrong.

[sassa]

Oooohh, I'm a Club God now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh,anyways, I'm really getting tired of this post, we're doing nothing but arguing back and forth and not really reaching each other.How about we just learn to disagree and that's it?It's obvious no one will understand my side of things,as well as vice versa.

To everyone: have a good weekend.

[laraver]

Originally posted by sassa

Oooohh, I'm a Club God now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh,anyways, I'm really getting tired of this post, we're doing nothing but arguing back and forth and not really reaching each other.How about we just learn to disagree and that's it?It's obvious no one will understand my side of things,as well as vice versa.

To everyone: have a good weekend.

The sound of Sassa running off because she got her intellectual ass beat.

[sassa]

This is pointless. What the hell do you think I've been doing all this time?Talking out of my ass?Look at my posts!

I feel like I'm talking to a group of monkeys at the zoo (not all of you, but certain morons whose names I won't mention,but their posts talk for themselves).I am through with this post. Find something else to rag on.

[clubgodraver]

well listen...last time I checked America is the most civilized just and free nation in the world. We could live in Cambodia and get massacred by our government. Or communist china, that a damm cool country. People all over the world would love to lvie in a free society w/ out government abuses and atrocities. If you don't like our foreign policy then tough shit. I guess when we retaliate for loss of innocent american lives, its not justifiable. lets congratulate bin laden on a outstanding job...and just let him laugh at us. that is what he is doing...we'll I have news for him...no one messes with the UNITED STATES!!! If you don't have anything constructive to offer in such a time of need, then shut your mouth. We don't need this anti-American sentiment from you. Especially now. so just keep your comments to yourself.

[boa_boy]

Originally posted by laraver

The sound of Sassa running off because she got her intellectual ass beat.

umm no sorry dear.

Firstly a disclaimer, I am not American, rather an Aussie that chose to come here for work, and I love it here

Sassa is quite the agent provacatuer, or if you prefer somewhat of a shit-stirrer, not anti-american

US Foreign Policy, or at least what passes for 'policy' repeatedly comes back and bites it in the ass.......Iraq and bin Laden being two oft-cited examples.

Sassa, mssoprano and raver_mania are the exceptions that make the rule. For the most part Americans form opinions about issues based on their knowledge of a situation, and their knowledge for the most part comes not from study, rather it is what is presented to them by the media, which in the United States far and away more than anywhere else in the world is governed by people not looking for the common good or trying to educate their audience, rather it is to get ratings and earn $$$$$$.......

this is in turn means that they need to cater to the lowest common denominator, for otherwise mr and mrs middle america will turn off and the advertisers will go elsewhere......so u have a 'vicious circle', where what people know is based on dumbed down information that's easy to digest.

Other countries, such as Australia and the UK certainly have a large part of the media operating in similar way, rupert murdoch (an Aussie BTW)for example owns News Ltd (Fox et al) which dominates in the US, UK and Australia. However Australia has the ABC (http://www.abc.gov.au/) and SBS (and in the UK the BBC), which are the equivalent of PBS except they are funded by the government, journalism through these TV channels for example tends to have a higher level of integrity and assumes are more educated audience, which is my next point...........

for the most part Americans know a great deal about America but (relatively) little about outside America, whereas people in other countries get taught a great deal about the rest of the world............this kind of theme (media bad, americans being uneducated) is tackled beautifully by Michael Franti when he was in the Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy....is he the only rapper with a Masters in political science, but I digress, in their song television drug of the nation........http://casa.colorado.edu/~mcl/television.shtml

so we have a generally illinformed public (because of education and ratings driven media), only half of which actually turn out to vote, voting for government, which in turn leads to 'bad' government (and there are a slue of issues here, from judicial (lack of) independance, campaign financing etc)..............

props to raver_mania, mssoprano and sasso for your eloquence and informedness..........

thoughts comments questions?

[Xpander]

Originally posted by clubgodraver

well listen...last time I checked America is the most civilized just and free nation in the world. We could live in Cambodia and get massacred by our government. Or communist china, that a damm cool country. People all over the world would love to lvie in a free society w/ out government abuses and atrocities. If you don't like our foreign policy then tough shit. I guess when we retaliate for loss of innocent american lives, its not justifiable. lets congratulate bin laden on a outstanding job...and just let him laugh at us. that is what he is doing...we'll I have news for him...no one messes with the UNITED STATES!!! If you don't have anything constructive to offer in such a time of need, then shut your mouth. We don't need this anti-American sentiment from you. Especially now. so just keep your comments to yourself.

you know....lurking as I have and trying to balance the arguments between laraver and sassa/msoprano/ravermania...it's comments like these that i think really hurt the case for the right.

This "we rule all" attitude is exactly what many foreigners hate about the US, the idea that somehow, anything we say, goes.

Keep in mind, lady and gentlesirs, that the US is built on a principle of self-augmentation through the acceptance and interegration of all things foreign. New Yorkers of ALL PEOPLE should have an understanding of this over anyone, anyone else.

This is a fucking mongrel nation. That's what makes the US great and that's what makes New York one of its shining stars. No one, and I mean NO ONE, has the right to dictate themselves as some sort of natives to this country because as far as this piece of land is concerned, you're ALL foreigners.

Criticizing the "motherland" is what created this "land of the free" in the first place, ladies and gentlemen. And for those who accuse Sassa of being some sort of traitor...all she's done is raise her voice and state a point about fallacies in the idea that this country is justified in everything it does. She didn't "support" the Taliban and she didn't "defend Bin Laden". Those of you who wants her sent out of this country and "back to the middle east" because she raised questions about the government are the ones that need to leave because you're the one who's betrayed the fundamental concepts of which this country is based on.

It's also kind of interesting the parallels that exists between some american citizens and the stars and stripes burners out there...

Oh, and if you haven't learned the point of all this by now, no matter how much shit is going on out there, there's still alot of shit going on, in here. Excuse my french. And she may have lost her temper, and i won't defend every single word she said, but it probably would make some sense for SOME of you out there to take into consideration what she said.

She said a few words to raise doubt about our image of the country. Guess what, criticizing the policies of this nation is what gave way the the civil rights movement.

"What? Your civil liberties are being violated? Well shut the fuck up cuz this is the best you're gonna get"

It's bullshit attitudes like that that deserves to be thrown out of the country...

[bigpoppanils]

Originally posted by boa_boy

umm no sorry dear.

Firstly a disclaimer, I am not American, rather an Aussie that chose to come here for work, and I love it here

Sassa is quite the agent provacatuer, or if you prefer somewhat of a shit-stirrer, not anti-american

US Foreign Policy, or at least what passes for 'policy' repeatedly comes back and bites it in the ass.......Iraq and bin Laden being two oft-cited examples.

Sassa, mssoprano and raver_mania are the exceptions that make the rule. For the most part Americans form opinions about issues based on their knowledge of a situation, and their knowledge for the most part comes not from study, rather it is what is presented to them by the media, which in the United States far and away more than anywhere else in the world is governed by people not looking for the common good or trying to educate their audience, rather it is to get ratings and earn $$$$$$.......

this is in turn means that they need to cater to the lowest common denominator, for otherwise mr and mrs middle america will turn off and the advertisers will go elsewhere......so u have a 'vicious circle', where what people know is based on dumbed down information that's easy to digest.

Other countries, such as Australia and the UK certainly have a large part of the media operating in similar way, rupert murdoch (an Aussie BTW)for example owns News Ltd (Fox et al) which dominates in the US, UK and Australia. However Australia has the ABC (http://www.abc.gov.au/) and SBS (and in the UK the BBC), which are the equivalent of PBS except they are funded by the government, journalism through these TV channels for example tends to have a higher level of integrity and assumes are more educated audience, which is my next point...........

for the most part Americans know a great deal about America but (relatively) little about outside America, whereas people in other countries get taught a great deal about the rest of the world............this kind of theme (media bad, americans being uneducated) is tackled beautifully by Michael Franti when he was in the Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy....is he the only rapper with a Masters in political science, but I digress, in their song television drug of the nation........http://casa.colorado.edu/~mcl/television.shtml

so we have a generally illinformed public (because of education and ratings driven media), only half of which actually turn out to vote, voting for government, which in turn leads to 'bad' government (and there are a slue of issues here, from judicial (lack of) independance, campaign financing etc)..............

props to raver_mania, mssoprano and sasso for your eloquence and informedness..........

thoughts comments questions?

i have noticed that BBC had a much higher level of integrity during the coverage of the bombings. The BBC began specualting that the anthrax might be from a us based group about 2 weeks before the american media did. there seemed to be a lot less bias than the american media as well. some of the newpapers here are good too, especially the guardian which is very intellectual and bold in the stories they present. i do still miss the villagevoice though. i did manage to find it at a tower records over here, but it wasnt free (about $3:mad: ) oh well....makes a nice treat once in a while

i dont miss MSNBC/CNBC though. what a bunch of idiots

[bigpoppanils]

oh and xpander...thanks for attempting to clear it up. however there are some poeple who are beyond help

[perfecto25]

i agree with what expander and boa boy said. the US media is fucking retarded. CNN is seriously made for drones, just look at its programming, there is seldom any in depth reporting outside of US. i try to catch reruns of BBC but they are only on late nights. I wish we had a station like SkyNews or BBC, anything which reports global news more. im sick and tired of hearing about stray cats in oklahoma and britney spears concerts in california. there needs to be a better station. obviously for people with satellite dishes, thats an option, but most people have basic/basic + cable, i certainly do, besides the news and the Daily Show, there is nothing to watch. having said that, i want to say that i lived half my life in russia, and as much as i hate to say it, americans on the general it seems are not educated about world affairs. i talked to an american friend of mine, and talked to him about the situation in afghanistan, how the taliban may collapse in jalalabad, he stared at me blankly until i told him where jalalabad is located. this isnt a problem only with the common american. the freaking president said before he was elected "i may not know where Kosovo is located exactly, but if someone shows it to me on a map, i can make the right decision with my heart". this is the biggest problem with the american public. yes it hurts me to say it but its true, this is real critism, a constructive critisism, not pure and biased bashing like sassa does. she decries US without offering proof or any sort of solutions. there is nothing wrong with critisism, but you need to make it solid with proof and alternatives. sassa, keep up your critisism, but do it in a more constructive way, we all love this country, and self critisism is a tradition of democracy. but please do it with a point, not to simply irritate and infuriate people, who are justly angered and insulted by your critisism.

[nycmuzik]

Originally posted by laraver

Kobar Towers in Saudi Arabia (one punch), USS Cole bombing (2 punches), WTC 1st bombing (3 punches), Mogadishu, Our soldiers drawn into an ambush while trying to ensure that starving people got the food aid sent from America (The Great Satan as Islamic Fundamentalist would have the world believe), not local warlords who wanted to horde it and did not care if their own people starved (4 punches), WTC 2nd bombing (5 + 6 punches), Pentagon (7 punches), Flight 93 hijack and crash(8 punches).

I just want to clarify something. What happened in Mogadishu had nothing to do with Bin Laden and Al Qaeda. Some of the Somalian fighters that were involved in that battle were also involved in the Afghan campaign. But Bin Laden was not directly involved. The sad thing about this is that not too many Americans remember this event. Although 18 American soldiers were killed that day, it could have been alot worse considering the amount of RPGs and automatic gunfire coming at them. Plus they completed their mission.

The book "Black Hawk Down" by Mark Bowden is based on this. It is the most accurate account of the battle. A must read for any of you military buffs out there. Also the movie comes out Dec. 28th in NYC an LA. Jan.18 everywhere else.

[musicbeat]

if Bin Landen got the chance, he would love to take a nuclear bomb, come to Midtown Manhattan, and blow up all of us, while he destroys NYC in the process

so all your opinions about US policy wouldn't mean shit then, 'cuase you'll be DEAD

it's too late to analyze who's at fault here and what led to what, the reality of the situation is that we're in a fight for our lives, history is past, and surviving and protecting our lives is what's at stake

that's our sad reality,,,GO USA and much support to our armed forces, you'll be victorious

[loch]

Originally posted by musicbeat

if Bin Landen got the chance, he would love to take a nuclear bomb, come to Midtown Manhattan, and blow up all of us, while he destroys NYC in the process

so all your opinions about US policy wouldn't mean shit then, 'cuase you'll be DEAD

...the reality of the situation is that we're in a fight for our lives...

...surviving and protecting our lives is what's at stake...

for the very same reason i welcome sassa's comments, i welcomed this comment as well. for the same reason i can appreciate her comments, i appreciate yours as well for pointing out this extreme scenario and remote possibility; a possibility in which i myself did not and could not have fathomed.

and this, ultimately, is my point: drawing forth and bringing such ideas and possibilities to the forefront of our minds, at a minimum, raises awareness, and at a maximum, gives us an opportunity to weigh the issues, and therefore, enables us make an informed decision...a decision that either solidifies our beliefs, or one that shatters them and converts us into joining the opposition. THAT, my friend, is the nature and beauty of debate.

it's too late to analyze who's at fault here and what led to what...

...history is past...

unfortunately, you have turned what was previously a pipe of wisdom in your mouth into a foot in your mouth. do you suggest then, that we gain nothing from history and therefore, should not learn from history? you mean to tell me that the only reason our educational curriculum includes history is to kill time so as to fill out the 7 hour school day?

[sassa]

Ok, here to me are the reasons why this bullshit is even happening...

I agree that bin Laden needs to be held accountable for his crimes.But while he is indeed a terrible person,his reasons and anger for the US aren't all that far off.

Four main reasons I can think of why bin Laden has issues with the US:

1) US soldiers stationed in Saudi Arabia is an upsetting issue for many people. There really is no justifying their presence there.The Saudi Arabian government has to pay these soldiers to be stationed there,to "protect" Saudi Arabia from future attacks from Saddam Hussein.Is this likely to happen,especially at this point?I don't think so.Perhaps the oil in Saudi Arabia is the main reason,but that's only speculation from my part.

2) The fact that the US abandoned the Afghanis in their neediest time is another reason.When Afghanistan was fighting the former Soviet Union, the US naturally supported the Afghanis against its foe.But what happened when things came to a close?The US pulls out without even helping the Afghani people to build a normal government and society up, and this is why the Taliban took power so easily in Afghanistan.

3) The sanctions in Iraq. Despite the sanctions being in effect for a few years now,Saddam still hasn't budged from his stance and it is unlikely that he ever will.He definitely is not feeling the effects of the sanctions,but rather the poor people of Iraq.It is inhumane and a destructive human trait when a country is allowed to slowly kill hundreds of thousands of innocents because of the actions of one madman.

4) The violence in Palestine and in Israel.It is mind-blowing that the US can recieve up to $5 billion a year in aid from Israel,while Egypt and Jordan recieved a meager $2 billion and $150 million.And aid for the Palestinians?Maybe some compassionate US interest groups have contributed to their cause,but otherwise the US government hasn't done jack for them. Clearly a one-sided,biased position is what the US is taking.

With all this in mind,if one feels enough anger and compassion for the people suffering,they can understand bin Laden's actions. BUT,this does not necessarily mean one has to agree with them.I can't begin to count the number of times I've been called an extreme leftist nut because of my words. The problem with a lot of people in this country is that they see things ONLY from their side,not anyone else's.Anyone not American is inferior to them.And this is such a wrong view to have,honestly.

[pookie23]

1. Should the US pull out of ALL foreign affairs/countries and let the parties in the Middle East (and everywhere else we an interest) settle their differences on their own?

2. If you were asked to go over there and fight for the freedoms you have, would you do it?

My answers:

1. Yes - We should isolate ourselves....BUT on the realization that if ANY terrorists action EVER happens again on our soil (by people not of this country) - we bomb them so f'n hard that the only thing that's left are earthworms and cockroaches!

2. Hell yeah!

Any thoughts?

[phuturephunk]

. . indeed an interesting thread, It always amazes me how much we, as citizens of the United States polarize in cases like this . .

. . Here's my 2 cents . .

I think most of you missed the point of exactly what Sassa is trying to get at (except for Loch, Xpander and bigpop). . .

Look at the Original post and analyze it's contents for a second . . A moment of silence for the 5000+ dead at the WTC and while we're at it, lets take, proportionately, moments of silence for all the dying that has happened where US involvement was central . .

WHERE US INVOLVEMENT IS CENTRAL . . That is the key statement . .

You see. . we as a country would love to go around and believe our proverbial shit doesn't stink. . Now, that's a fallacy that many americans adhere to because it would be easier to bury ones head in the sand then to get down to brass tacks and find a better way of dealing with the rest of the world . .

Our country has perpetrated horrible acts on our (the masses) behalf in order for YOU to have the right go out and not FEAR taking a ride to the supermarket to pick up munchies after the blunt . .

The dirty work that is REQUIRED to maintain this level of freedom is EXTROADINARY. . . neccesitating acts that most normal people don't want to think about . . Yes in a perfect world, the land of fucking sunshine, we'd all be able to sit down at the table and hash out our differences as civilized people, but in THIS WORLD, THIS REALITY any accomplished soldier, and polititian for that matter, will tell you that what cannot be solved by diplomacy, CAN be solved by the barrel of a gun . .

. . Sad, but true . . . Now I've digressed from trying to explain what I THINK (ain't freedom great?) was Sassa's original intent of the post . . and here's what I think:

I believe that Sassa, like myself, is angered not at the fact that we are engaged in this strike against Afghanistan, which in turn will cause many people, both civilian and millitary, to die but rather, that WE as a country and our talking head leaders will sit up there and NOT comprehend why people would perpetrate something like the WTC disaster in the first place. . .

Just examine some of the soundbytes that our "fearless" leader (lol . . . . yeah coke i'll do that to ya . .) has given. . He's "amazed" when he hears of vitriolic sentiment towards America. . Amazed Georgie?. . are you Dense? . . He can't understand it, and this is a syndrome that is ALL to pervasive in America today . . A collective sense of the well heeled that WE as America should warrant respect on our flash alone . . That our reputation of being fabulous is what should validate us as good people on this earth and, along with that, a denial that any of our acts as a civilization of the human race could possibly be immoral . . .

A perfect analogy is the stark differences in the way that rich and poor are handled in OUR society . . We talk of national unity, and yet at the same time we sneer at those who do not live up to our "class" standard. . if you're from the middle class, you bash the blue collars, from the blue collars, the poor . . If you're rich, then you bash and sneer at everyone. . . This is the EXACT same way that we, as a rich country, treat everyone else. . Hell, we even talk down to Europe (which they grudgingly go along with because we're a good economic force to be allied with. . ) and they're well heeled too. . In a nutshell it all comes down to who has the most MONEY. . .

. . And as the country with the most money, we are positioned to do the most good, HOWEVER we do not. . we serve OUR ends, which IS quite possible while still maintaining a sense of community among countries, yet the obtuse extreme that it is taken to all too often ends in us perpetrating something big, like the overthrow of a government, on other countries in the name of protecting ourselves from threat, whether real or imagined (or politically strategic . .) . .

. . And that, believe it or not, I can deal with . . The thing I CANNOT accept is when the same people who order these activities to commence turn around and are DUMBFOUNDED when someone else in this world decides to fuck back . . September 11th wasn't just a horrible travesty, it was a symbol of growing hatred towards the perception of America. . . Now, they don't hate our shopping malls and our retarded pop culture, they actually like that (I mean, who could resist, it's been scientifically created and marketed as to addict you to it . .) . . They hate when we fuck THEIR shit up and then turn around and it's all la la la everythings great in the land of sunshine. . .They see our opulence, and then see their lacking of it and then consider the fact that we meddle in the world and immediately come to the conclusion that THIER pain is caused by US. . And when our leaders, instead of trying to be stand up human beings and be ACCOUNTABLE to the past and present fuck ups that we've perpetrated, get up on TV and invoke in false righteousness, the name of GOD as a backer of our retaliation, the have nots hatred only intensifies. .

The world wants us to admit that we are as DIRTY as the rest of them, even more so . . and that is exactly what America's leaders will not do, so there will be more death and more meddling until FINALLY a leadership of CHARACTER takes the reigns of this country and leads us to TRUE greatness, one where we are respected on the basis of earned credit, rather than feared on the basis of immenent violence. . .

I do, like Sassa, Bigpop, Expander and all on this board, love America with all my heart and soul. . I DO NOT however love it's LEADERS. . . They lie to the rest of the world, to us and. .most saddeningly. .to themselves . .

. . .Just a thought . .

Peace,

-Phuturephunk

[Xpander]

Originally posted by spragga25

1. Should the US pull out of ALL foreign affairs/countries and let the parties in the Middle East (and everywhere else we an interest) settle their differences on their own?

2. If you were asked to go over there and fight for the freedoms you have, would you do it?

My answers:

1. Yes - We should isolate ourselves....BUT on the realization that if ANY terrorists action EVER happens again on our soil (by people not of this country) - we bomb them so f'n hard that the only thing that's left are earthworms and cockroaches!

2. Hell yeah!

Any thoughts?

yes.....both sounds rather reasonable right now, Ragga......

the thing with 1 though....we've spent a heck of a lot of time attacking, and not a whole lot of time defending....

Unfortunately, with everything looking the wa it is right now, it seems that situation 2 may or may not happen while situation 1 seems almost impossible....

sigh....

[bigpoppanils]

Originally posted by spragga25

1. Should the US pull out of ALL foreign affairs/countries and let the parties in the Middle East (and everywhere else we an interest) settle their differences on their own?

2. If you were asked to go over there and fight for the freedoms you have, would you do it?

1. Pulling out and isolating ourselves from the world is not the answer. If we do that, the terrorists win. If we also do that, the possibility of global chaos grows. If we pull all of our forces out of the middle east, ill bet you that saddam will try and take over all of the middle east again. but before that happens, isreal will get invaded. what scares me about that scenario is that several nations in that area have nuclear capability: Isreal, Pakistan, India, and quite possibly Iran and Iraq. All of these nations have biological weapons as well. The last thing this world needs is for the middle east to become a radioactive crater.

The last time the united states was isolationist was in the 1920's and 1930's. After worldwar 1, we did little to help europe reconstruct itself. since we were not a member of the league of nations (precursor to the UN) it had very little success in preventing manymilitary actions that led up to world war 2.

i could go much futher with this answer, but my hands are tired.

2. yes i would

[Xpander]

Originally posted by bigpoppanils

1. Pulling out and isolating ourselves from the world is not the answer. If we do that, the terrorists win. **snip**

Problem here is, the US still needs to do some MAJOR overhaul on foreign policy. An isolationist stance may be too extreme, but at the same time, strategic withdraws would still probably be wise.

The whole US neo-imperialism concept does hold some water. It may be time to consider that as a problematic situation rather than ignoring it.

[tribal]

1) US soldiers stationed in Saudi Arabia is an upsetting issue for many people. There really is no justifying their presence there.The Saudi Arabian government has to pay these soldiers to be stationed there,to "protect" Saudi Arabia from future attacks from Saddam Hussein.Is this likely to happen,especially at this point?I don't think so.Perhaps the oil in Saudi Arabia is the main reason,but that's only speculation from my part.

so wait sassa, what you are trying to say that its repulsing for the Saudis to support the US troops, the very same troops that prevented Saddam from over running the country and murdering thousands of people? once again, a case of US aid, thrown back in our face. yes, oil was the primary issue, no one doubts that, but along the oil, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Kuwait were liberated by US and coalition troops, from a sweetheart you call Saddam. and do you really think that Saddam hasnt invaded Saudis because hes just not in the mood? wake up and smell the gunpowder, its the very presence of US troops and US aircraft patrolling the no fly zones that kept saddam from breaking hell again, and from moving to kill more of the Kurdish population. sassa, why do you think he hasnt invaded? why why why???? duh!

second point, about israel. israel recieves more aid than many other mid east countries because israel has a responsible fiscal policy, and its annual economic growth is unequal in the region

annual GDP:

US $32,778

Israel $17,564

Egypt $ 1,307

Syria $ 2,525

Jordan$ 1,576

Lebanon $1,585

source: '>http://srch0.un.org/plweb-cgi/fastweb?state_id=1006037980&view=unsd1&numhitsfound=165&query=israeli%20gdp&query_rule=%28%28$query%29%29&docid=129859&docdb=unsd&dbname=unsd&sorting=BYRELEVANCE&TemplateName=predoc.tmpl&setCookie=1

etc, the reason Israel recieves so much money from US is the fact that its a very profitable country. my father works for an investment firm here in nyc, and the firm recently opened up a trading floor in tel aviv, as have many other companies. why? because israeli tech sector is one of the most advanced in the world. because american companies make billions in israel and relatively little in other mid east countries. why? again, instability, religious dogma, non democratic governments, inefficiency and pure anti western mentality. american companies want the US to invest in Israel because of the large market that is available. now, if arab states were to adapt a similar responsible economic policies, the money would flood the region. remember, financiers dont give a shit if you are a jew, muslim cristian or whatever, if you have a stable and responsible environment, investments will one way or another reach you. this is something that needs to be set into the minds of arab governments. they are poor not because the US doesnt like them or because Israel is a powerful country, they are poor because they didnt take the initative to improve their economies and societies through modernization and stability, but blame their failures on US and Israel. tell me sassa, what does the fact that Israelis and Palestinians are at war, have to do with the meager GDP and poverty seen in countries like Iraq, Iran, Yemen and others? hmm something to think about