non-stop arab terror

[crystelbella21]

oooh my goodness... politics shouldn't be posted on a freakin messageboard!

[igloo]

Originally posted by bigpoppanils

oo!

igloo is back!

joy to the world!!!!!!!!

Thank you, thank you..I knew I would be missed...

btw..Why hasn't Sassa answered my question?...

[kaligirl]

Well I have been to the area referred to as the Gaza Strip". I took a boat over the Suez Canal from Egypt, and then we drove out into the desert. I can't even begin to describe what this place or the part I saw anywayz looks like. YOu can't even walk out on the sand due to live bombs still burried there. There are burned out tanks and alot of other burned stuff out there. The place is just raveged by years and years of war.

The palest and the Isralies have been fighting over these areas for decades. They both think it belongs to them and they both are not willing to give it up. Religion in the middle east is a powerful thing. They live, eat, breath and die by their beliefs. I just don't see a peaceful end to this in the near future. I just don't see any solution that would be acceptable to both sides.

[tribal]

sonicinf, dont start that drama shit, i have never mentioned islam or muslims not once. this isnt about religion so quit your bitching. and i dont think pakistan was mentioned either. if arafat was doing what your boy musharaff is trying to do, this whole conflict couldve been solved years ago.

kaligirl, i agree its a wasteland, and it seems illogical that people would spill blood over such area. the problem is that this area affects us in an indirect way. as long as there is this conflict, many mid east nations can harbor terrorists and their sympathizers as an excuse to drive out the israelis. the problem is many of these groups hate US and the western way of life. our own US interests are in danger because of this conflict.

[breaksny]

No I don't read le monde but ytf shouldn't I? What are they particularly harsh on Israel's occupation? You know that's not even a leftist French paper, that title belongs to liberation. You just saw what I read tribal, the times...a paper who's editorial board and many columnists (a la friedman and safire) are heavily biased in Israel's favor. Notice btw I said books, not papers. When you go take a class in middle east politics or seriously sit down and start reading and understanding sara roy, glen robinson, barry rubin, rashid khalidi, et al then get back to me. They have a bias granted, but these are academics who are spending they're lives studying the intricacies of palestinian politics who know the ins and outs, and who have more to say than simply "my family lives in jerusalem and they wanna live in peace with all the palestinians." Who did your family vote for in 99 and 2001 anyway? What part of Jerusalem do they live in? Do they have relatives who are settlers?

You know I saw a piece on the BBC last nite about a settler woman who took a palestinian girl to an Israeli medical clinic b/c she was so sick and she said something along the lines of "I don't think any child of God should die." Personally, she'd be too religious for me, but @ least she's humane. At least she has some sort of universalistic compassion for her neighbors. And she's a settler, obviously she knows perfectly well what's happening around her in terms of the recent attax on settlements. I can't at the moment point to a concrete equivalent example on the Palestinian side, but that's just b/c I haven't read such a news report. The fact is...Jews and Moslems and Christians coexisted just fine for thousands of years and the establishment of the state of Israel (along with a feudalistic Palestinian economy and polity that only significantly weakened beginning in the late 70s and early 80s, and along with with British, Ottoman, Jordanian, and Egyptian colonialism) are what has stirred up this whole conflict. The PA and most Palestinians want a 2 state solution...they're on record as saying such, in fact they're been legally bound by that principle since 1988. And they're committed to it. You've obviously been duped yourself into thinking the PA doesn't want a 2 state solution. What kind of bs literature r u reading yourself? Some sort of propoganda that contradicts the truth? You're stating blatant inaccuracies that completely lump all Palestinian political factions together without showing the nuances in the conflict. Why shouldn't Arafat get weapons from Iran anyway? His country is under siege and he's under house arrest, and his people are under marshal law. I don't fuckin blame him or Hamas for fighting force with force. It's self defense. But the fact is, Hamas doesn't want the same thing as the PA. You should know that if you know the 1st thing about Palestinian politics. Do you know that? Have you studied the issue? You're spouting this inane propoganda that has no basis in fact whatsoever and it astounds me that you think there's some sort of academic or press conspiracy against you or the state of Israel. Maybe Libya or Iraq doesn't want Israel around anymore, but that's hardly the same as the PA. Get your facts straight. LOL They preach hate on their broadcasts b/c they're under occupation...it's politics tribal obviously. There is a large moderate coalition of forces in Palestinian society led by Ashrawi and others anyway. Most Palestinians (3/4 in a recent poll) said they want a 2 state solution, but one on equitable terms. The hate is a propoganda tool granted, but the younger leaders within dissident PLO factions and other non PLO organizations hate Israel b/c they've grown up under military occupation. That's a REALITY tribal as you so kindly point out. You're soooo confused as to the facts and their full implications yourself that it's clear to me you don;t know what you're talking about. And I'm seriously considering not wasting my time on boneheads like you on this message board anymore. Maybe I should go read le monde now. Haha.

[tribal]

a bonehead. how elitist. you think by taking a few courses on PA structure, you have a clear and unbiased view on the situation. ill tell you something breaks, i took 3 courses on mid east politics, and read a few books by Friedman(who is not biased towards israel,on the contrary, if you have ever read his work, you would know that as well), Said and many other arab and european/israeli intellectuals. you are very naive my friend to disassociate PA from the array of palst terror groups. its not as easy as that. do you know about the mossad/shin bet organization? they have considerably some of the best intelligence on arab countries in the world. they work together with Jordanian intelligence agency and run a wide network of informers. heres a little article to clarify whats really going on.

--------------

Israel Urgently Needs New Counter-Terror Strategy

DEBKAfile Analysis

20 February: Ariel Sharon may not realize how fast Yasser Arafat is advancing on his goal of defeating yet another Israeli prime minister, exactly five years after a Palestinian bus-bombing campaign and strike against Tel Aviv’s Dizengoff Center forced Shimon Peres to throw in the towel after only a year as prime minister.

Picture: O.C. Central Command,

Maj.-Gen. Yitzhak Eitan

Ehud Barak was the next prime minister to resign in mid-term under the pressure of Arafat’s Intifada.

All three refrained from calling a spade a spade, ie naming Arafat a master-terrorist. They were all at pains to adjust to molds fashioned in Washington and in left-wing salons and media at home and abroad. No Israeli leader, left or right, ever ventured to touch the 1993 Oslo Peace framework Accords that Arafat, its Palestinian signatory, began violating on Day One.

Sharon was elected a year ago for his hard line views on defense and military prowess. He was Israel’s great white hope for eradicating the Palestinian terror scourge. However, his performance has been marked by indecision, procrastination, fuzzy messages and lack of perceived leadership in the face of the pressures coming from the unwieldy national unity government he insists on preserving. Sharon has refused to face up tomounting Palestinian belligerence and its expanding support base made up of Iran, Iraq, Hizballah and other militants and Islamic extremists of the Arab world and, latterly, al Qaeda.

The Israeli Defense Forces are widely seen as one of the strongest and most effective armies in the world. Yet its commanders and men are increasingly hamstrung by the lack of firm leadership and the government’s refusal to explicitly name the enemy and let them go to war. The outcome is misconceived strategy and faulty tactics. A soldier out in the field may also find himself out on a limb – hence the missteps and disasters of the last 48 hours.

Tuesday night, February 19, an-eight man combat engineering unit took over a roadblock position on the approach road to the Ramallah district, stranded in an isolated, unpopulated area. An hour later, a group of Palestinian Fatah-Tanzim gunmen crept up and shot six men dead at close range, wounding another. The eighth man survived to fetch help.

The IDF’s retaliatory operation later Tuesday night covered much West Bank and Gaza Strip territory, but did not do much to disarm or deter Palestinian terror. Wednesday, Palestinians approaching to within 300 meters of Israeli army roadblocks were fired upon indiscriminately, a sign of the confusion among Israeli troops.

Wednesday morning, February 20, Israel’s inner security cabinet went into session promising a package of improved counter-terrorist tactics. Before them were the dread statistics of Arafat’s accelerated cycle of terror. Two weeks ago, the Israeli death toll had risen to one a day; in the last six days it has tripled. However, given Sharon’s past performance and the divergent viewpoints of its three members – the prime minister and two Labor ministers, Binyamin Ben Eliezer, defense and Shimon Peres, foreign affairs - no one attached much hope of the forum coming up with any real cure or deterrent.

Confined in Ramallah for nearly three months, the Palestinian leader has yet whipped the various Palestinian groups into a unified command structure for run his terror campaign on quasi-military, sophisticated lines. All its militants have embraced Hamas kamikaze tactics. He is willingly assisted by Iran-backed Lebanese Hizballah terror-guerrilla warfare experts, applying their twenty years of exposure in South Lebanon to Israeli military vulnerabilities. Al Qaeda fugitives, from their safe berth in the Palestinian refugee centers of Lebanon and Syria, are contributing terror methods and materials.

In the last three weeks, the terror command has swept its sights from one group of Israeli targets to the next – from the crowd centers of Israeli towns, to military command centers, then police, and finally soldiers and settlers. Israel’s casualty toll has been ratcheted up at each new stage.

The Sharon government’s weakness has not only encouraged Arafat; it has re-opened the domestic political arena to Israel’s left-wing dissenters and peace campaigners. Discredited by the Palestinian intifada and popular anger at the concessions they made to the Palestinians under the 1993 Oslo Peace Framework accords, they kept their heads down for more than a year. Now, they hope to capitalize on the bleak popular mood, which is sending some affluent Israelis to pack their bags and leave, and are back at their old maneuvers of demonstrations, petitions, anti-IDF litigation, solidarity gestures for Palestinians and hobnobbing with their leaders, including terror masterminds.

These groups enjoy active and material support from likeminded backers in Germany, France, the UK, Scandinavia and other places.

Two petitions making waves come from former security circles: a group of reserve officers objecting to service in Palestinian-ruled areas and another, made up of former high army and security service officers demanding Israel’s unilateral withdrawal to pre-1967 war lines. Israel’s High Court, which traditionally flexes its muscles at times of weak government, Tuesday interfered in the IDF operation to clear the Gaza Strip route, on which three Israelis died in ambush the night before, of buildings and homes serving as Palestinian firing positions. A temporary injunction halted the military bulldozers in their tracks at the request of a group of Gazan residents and Israeli Arab Knesset member Mohamed Barakeh.

Most of the judges on the High Court bench have shown sympathy for the peace campaigners in their past rulings.

The peaceniks are a minority – some say a fringe. Yet their campaign, faithfully recorded by

domestic and international media, has stirred up a vortex of national disputation, fueling Palestinian hopes of Israel’s impending social integration and lending fresh vigor to their campaign of violence.

The cure is in Sharon’s hands. To apply it, he must first break away from his predecessors’ immobilizing constraints and bring his lingering duel with Yasser Arafat to closure, before his hold on power is eroded

------------------------

my family are russian immigrant and are not religious. they voted Labor for Barak, in honest hopes for a stable future, along side palst with 2 states. some of my best friends are israelis. they have also voted Labor, in hopes of peace. no one wants to kill palst or destroy/deny them a homeland, except for the very far right, who are a minority. the reason Likud is in power today, is not because israelis hate palst, but because they see their family members dying everyday, worrying whether a member will come home from work alive, and they want peace most of all. they have no connection with the settlers, people who are religious zealots and are a cause of frustration for both sides. im sure many palst feel the same way, yet the support for terror groups is highest its ever been. on the issue of settlements, i agree with you completely. they are there illegaly and should be dismantled. this issue was covered under the oslo accords, and the majority of the settlements would have been dismantled. arafat did not sign the treaty, and deliberately set off a new round of violence. i suggest you put down your books, and take a real look at the region before declaring me to be a bonehead. many european agencies support the PA financially, donating millions thinking the money would go to build palst infrastructure, food/medicine and etc, yet the money goes to buy rifles, mortars and explosives for carnage. so you will forgive me if im a bit skeptical and critical of the liberal european press. i agree on 2 points with you. 1. israel should withdraw from those areas 2. the settlers are a nuisance. i dont agree with you on the aims and tactics of the PLO. what they say in the press does not reflect what they do on the ground.

[breaksny]

I'm elitist? LOL Get your head outta the sand.

[breaksny]

That's such crap. Of course Friedman is biased. Everything he says now is Arafat is evil blah blah blah. I know his work and he';s not a moderate in the least. It's people who don't know any better who think otherwise.

[kaligirl]

Originally posted by tribal

sonicinf, dont start that drama shit, i have never mentioned islam or muslims not once. this isnt about religion so quit your bitching. and i dont think pakistan was mentioned either. if arafat was doing what your boy musharaff is trying to do, this whole conflict couldve been solved years ago.

kaligirl, i agree its a wasteland, and it seems illogical that people would spill blood over such area. the problem is that this area affects us in an indirect way. as long as there is this conflict, many mid east nations can harbor terrorists and their sympathizers as an excuse to drive out the israelis. the problem is many of these groups hate US and the western way of life. our own US interests are in danger because of this conflict.

I do agree that the US is a hated country, but a loved one as well. When I was in Egypt I was showed alot of love from the local people. They are fasinated with Americans. I did though have to respect the rules of a muslim nation. No, shorts, no tank tops, ect.

Middle Eastern nations are very different than the US, in the way they conduct their lives and so on. For instance in Egypt there were military personal standing street corners with machine guns, women are not allowed to sit in the front seat of a car, women can't attend funerals. All these things are not acceptible to us here in the US, but to them its a way of life.

I don't know I guess what I am saying is that forget all this political bs, its really simple in that both sides feel that these areas belong to them and they are willing to fight to the death for it. ANd that is not an acceptable way to the US, but to them this is what has been done for decades and it is what is acceptable to them.

And yes this does cause problems for us Americans, but I feel some things are best keep out of by the US. Although that is not possible I am sure since we are the "super power" and all.

[breaksny]

And another thing, why do I read books on the subject? To learn the history u bonehead. To learn the REALITY ON THE GROUND as you like to call it. You are soooo steeped in one side of the conflict that you can't see the forrest for the trees. You don't even realize it that's what's pathetic to me. Anyone who'd know sharon's history wouldn't have voted for that nazi (I dunno what else to call him since he's guilty of alot of the things Milosevic is). You think I'm steeped in some ivory tower or something, you simply show your ignorance for half of the conflict. Get over your self righteous self. LOL I'm done wasting my time on you. Go ahead and have the last word. Wtf do I care? I'll let people who can actually stand to read your drivel argue my side on my behalf. You're not worth my effort.

[tribal]

kaligirl, i really wish we could be isolationists. but if we were to do that, we would pay a high price, in terms of GDP, military power and our standard of living. ill tell you something, you know who the smartest people on earth are?? its the Swiss. gotta be them. they dont stick their nose in any conflict, make wonderful chocolates, excellent watches and go on skiing vacations, all while managing the world's money. brilliant. i say, lets become a giant Switzerland. instead of chocolate, were gonna make Big Macs. let the EU be the next superpower. let them handle all the headaches. oh btw, if you like the nightlife in egypt, there is a beautiful little place on East 11st and 1st ave, called Sahara East, a smoke bar with a dj and the entire charming egyptian setting, with picture murals of Giza and the pyramids. the owner is a really nice guy, his name is Faisal. they have cherry tobacco hookahs, heres some pics , check it out in the summer, its amazing there, good prices too

damn i miss the summer already..

yea ok breaks, dont waste your precious time. gotta go read the TRUTH. i suppose arafat is a noble leader unlike sharon right? dont jerk yourself off too hard, you are just as biased as me. open your fucking eyes junior.

[kaligirl]

Originally posted by tribal

kaligirl, i really wish we could be isolationists. but if we were to do that, we would pay a high price, in terms of GDP, military power and our standard of living. ill tell you something, you know who the smartest people on earth are?? its the Swiss. gotta be them. they dont stick their nose in any conflict, make wonderful chocolates, excellent watches and go on skiing vacations, all while managing the world's money. brilliant. i say, lets become a giant Switzerland. instead of chocolate, were gonna make Big Macs. let the EU be the next superpower. let them handle all the headaches. oh btw, if you like the nightlife in egypt, there is a beautiful little place on East 11st and 1st ave, called Sahara East, a smoke bar with a dj and the entire charming egyptian setting, with picture murals of Giza and the pyramids. the owner is a really nice guy, his name is Faisal. they have cherry tobacco hookahs, heres some pics , check it out in the summer, its amazing there, good prices too

Your absolutly right about Switzerland. They just mind their own business and have all the $$ they need. I mean afterall they were a neutral country as well as Austria in WWII. My grandpa was a piolet and was shot down over Germany and was captured. He escaped on route to a POW camp and made it to the American Embassy in Austria. Thank god for countries like that. And btw the skiing is amazing there.

So you have been to Egypt?? My dad lived there for almost 10 years. I am dying to go back and see some of the nightlife. But I think that will probally wait awhile, since the Middle East is so unstable.

I just wish this would all go away, but only in a perfect world I guess...........

damn i miss the summer already..

yea ok breaks, dont waste your precious time. gotta go read the TRUTH. i suppose arafat is a noble leader unlike sharon right? dont jerk yourself off too hard, you are just as biased as me. open your fucking eyes junior.

[kaligirl]

oops, sorry about that one!!

[tribal]

nah havent been to egypt yet. been to israel, jordan, lebanon and in the palst areas. saw arafat's mansion back in '95, when everyone thought the future was bright. you know, this conflict brings out the worst of humanity.

i wanna visit turkey and cyprus still. cyprus is a paradise racked with occasional violence. but my primary mediterranean destination this summer is Ibiza. no violence, no politics, just music and sunsets. perfect world.

[kaligirl]

Yeah I guess there is a perfect world somewhere out there. I wouldn't mind escaping to Seychells myself!!