malone

These comments are, at best, incoherent. Firstly, the Palestinian have plenty of weapons. The US isn't the only country capable of supplying arms, you know. Try Iran, or Syria, or Lybia, or the black market, for Christ's sake. You're not that naive, surely. Now to suggest that the only way Palestinians "can retaliate" is to use suicide bombers is to demonstrate a tremendous lack of confidence in the intelligence of the Palestinan people, or in their imagination. And if you truly believe this, as opposed to, say, just trotting it out because you think it's jaw-dropper, then I must say you don't have a whole lot of imagination yourself. If the Palestinians need prompting in this regard, there are countless example of "armed struggle" to choose from, some quite successful, that have not debased their "cause" by such foul deeds. And attempting to suggest that this is only so because these others hadn't to deal with an enemy as ferocious as Israel is simply laughable, so don't go there. I cannot, for the life of me, see how anyone can believe that deliberately blowing innocent civilians to pieces is an act of war or self-defence. It surely requires feats of mental contortion that I, and so many others, thankfully, have never been able to perform. It is not the "cause" that makes one a terrorist, but, rather, the methods. So if you'd be good enough to explain to us how these acts constitute a legitimate response to Israeli "agression" than I'd be happy to learn. Why stop calling "the real leaders of Palestine" terrorists, if by their acts that's what they are. Is labelling them thus offensive in you mind?? If the term is harsh, then how much more harsh the deeds that earned this term of opprobrium???!! The statement that Israel is killing many more "civilians" than the Palestinians warrants some elaboration. For example, whom do you consider a civilian?? Are you going to break down the figures for us into categories that have some bearing on your statement. I don't have those figures, do you?? Do you know the make-up of, say, the number of deaths on the Palestinian side who were deliberately killed by the Israeli's because they were "civilians" as opposed to being members of terrorist organizations; the numbers of Palestinian deaths that were due to cross-fire and nobody knows for sure who's responsible, but because they are Palestinian, they are presumed to be the victims of Israeli agression? The number who were suicide bombers? How can you make a blanket statement like you did, presumably to make the Israeli's appear the agressor, without even begining to answer these questions. Are all Palestinians civilians, who are not PA forces? Well?? The Israeli's have always denied having a policy of targeting innocent civilians, and have on several occasions apologized for causing civilian casualties. Civilians die in all such conflicts. That's a sad fact of war. And as you pointed out yourself, the Israeli's have a definite advantage in materiel, leading one to conclude that they must be exercising great restraint. Restraint, as opposed to recklessly targeting innocent civilians. After 18 months of conflict, the Palestinian death toll could well be in the hundreds of thousands, If Israeli's military capacity was unleashed on the civilian population. Clearly, nothing approaching this has happened, as intentional civilian deaths are not part of Israel's plan. Plain and simple. Unfortunately, though, the same cannot be said for the Palestinians. Not only are civilians considered as "legitimate targets," they are, with a few rare exceptions, the sole target. And therein lies the difference. It's not that Palestinians are not seen as been entitled to a seperate State, It's that Israel cannot permit that State to exist as a threat to itself. When the Palestinians abandon their dream of destroying Israel, then they may employ their considerable destructive energies in pursuit of a more constructive enterprise. Finally, your reference to the World Wars is lost on me, as I don't know the context from which they are derived. It would enhance clarity were you to be more meticulous with such references in future, maybe even including the original Quote.

Listen, somuchcrap, one thing's for sure: you're a big baby. I've read through all of your posts on this topic and besides the very obvious fact that you're barely literate, it would be fair to say your IQ hovers somewhere below room temperature. A lot of growing up to do. You are an embarrasment even to the discredited cause you espouse.

Truth be told, you really don't want an answer, now do you?? After all you've made your own mind up: It's to hide "more of his war crimes." This from a guy who thinks suicide killings is the greatest thing since sliced bread. And your earlier post suggesting reading news sounds hollow indeed, coming as it does from someone with your obvious dearth of insight. And when we're at it: When was the last time cameras were permitted to view the terrorist conducting an operation??Remember now, Daniel Pearl having his throat slit, and his head cut off doesn't count in this one.

1. You didn't point out "all things taking place in Palestine", you pointed out the things that you say the Israelis are responsible for. 2. Sharon did not stop Arafat from traveling to the Arab summit. 3. You talk about "getting to the roots of the problem", while you yourself point to the symptoms, and completely ignore the roots in the Arab mindset that could never tolerate Israels presence. 4. What is the humiliation that has been inflicted on the Palestinians that is SO great, that is SO beyond anything the world has ever experienced, that leads them to commit these savage atrocities against innocent civilians? Israel has had to deal, for more than fifty years, with a constant onslaught of violence directed both against the state and civilians, from its Arab neighbors, and all this while nobody has thought to excuse their response on the grounds of humiliation. This "humiliation" mindset has a lot more to do with the inability to come to terms with Israels success, than with anything inflicted by Israel itself. If the Arabs want peace with Israel, then they need to stop brainwashing generation upon generation of their people about the evils of the Jewish people. Witness the most recent calumnies out of the Saudi Royal family-controlled press. Instead of harping on ad nauseam about Israel this and Israel that, why don't they take a good look in the mirror, and see what needs to be redressed in their societies. They might start by asking "How come there is not one democratic Arab country in the world?" How come THIS humilation hasn't led to suicide attacks in Arab countries? How come Kuwait kicking out all 300,000 Palestinian refugees after the Gulf War hasn't led to any condemnations, international outrage or the kind of "humilation" that leads desperate people to suicide bombings? And what about the Arab goons burning down synagogues and attacking Jews in France? What "humiliations" did the French Jews inflict upon these people, I ask? And would you be good enough to elaborate for us what "basic needs" the Palestinians are missing that is so devastating to cause them to take their own lives and the lives of a hell of a lot of completely innocent civilians? My God, with this line of thinking, the death toll of Ethiopia and Sudan would rise into the millions through suicide bombings alone! No, no, there is something else entirely afoot here, and when you remove your blinders, maybe we can discuss it further.

Eh, sorry old chap, but you've just put the cart before the horse. You ought to try one of those "memory" courses they're always touting on late-night tv. Back to square one for you.

So finally you've come around to Breaksny's point of view. There were absolutely no problems prior to Sharon coming to the Prime-ministership of Israel. Good to know. So we shall look forward to the end of his term in office then. That way we are then assured of a problem-free relationship between the two communities. Can hardly wait.

Well let's see now. What are you going to do, raver, if your family are butchered while going to a restaurant for an evening meal?? And you live in a country that has never known peace because you are surrounded by people who don't even think you have a right to exist?? And that your homeland was attacked on several occasions by the armies of all these countries?? Are you just going to sit there and think: "...oh, of course, they have to do this...it's not their fault?" Or are you going to get angry?? Yes, I firmly believe the Palestinians are victims in all of this. But no more so than the Israeli's. The difference is that the Palestinians can never move beyond this state so long as they deny Israel's right to exist. That denial has lead to them carrying on a campaign of violence against Israeli civilians for decades now, and has got them nowhere, except to worsen their plight. Some day, no doubt, the Palestinians will have their own State, and when they do they wiil certainly take every measure to guard that State against aggresion, foreign and domestic. And if it's like every other Arab State, soon it will be a corrupt kleptocracy. Which won't trouble you in the least. But that State, if it is to survive, must come to terms with the reality of Israel's existence. In fact it won't come into being without this fundamental shift in thinking. That you can take to the bank. Now, answer me this: Why are Palestinians siting in refugee camps eating one meal a day more than five decades after their original displacement??Five decades?? Come on, are you telling me that that's not a "stick" to constantly beat the Israeli's with?? Are you trying to say that that's not as a deliberate policy by Arab nations to keep this issue as a permanent festering sore?? All the millions upon millions of refugees in Europe after the war were settled within ten years after the war, and these people are still in refugee camps eating one meal a day?? Three generations of the same family eating one meal a day after all these years?? Something's rotten in Denmark, alright.

Explain how killing civilians by one side in a war is "100 times worse" than the same act commited by the other side. But judging from the content of you post history is definitely not your forte so I don't suppose we should expect too much in the way of elaboration. Strangely you seem to tkink that it's ok to blow civilians to pieces because of acts commited by a "foreign force." If what Israel has done in the West Bank justifies suicide attacks on civilians then one can only expect the entire Middle East to end in total conflagration. Afterall no other regime in the region would tolerate anything near what Israel has had to endure. In fact they won't even tolerate their own people deciding if they are fit to remain in government.

Talk abou a one-sided portrayal. It means that women won't get to give birth at hospitals because they will be blown to pieces in the local food market. It means that ten year old boys will be decapitated as they play with friends because someone has deemed civilians "legitimate" targets, young and old alike, so long as they are Jews. Getting them young, eh?? Well, if I saw one image of a young Palestinian carrying guns or marching in "military" processions, I've seen a thousand. So I guess someone thinks it's desirable to get 'em young. You seem to think the Israeli's must accept any amount of attacks on it civilians but have no right to respond. In case you haven't noticed, the Israeli's are not up against a bunch of stone-throwers here. Though perhaps you'd like the world to believe otherwise.

The biggest balls in the world, eh?? Even the female ones?? Bin Laden is quite opposed to the US presence on holy Saudi soil, which he deems as sacrilege. That was the primary reason for his assualts on the US, both here and its overseas interests . But I find it instructive that you would give "credit" to those who would butcher innocent civilians while decrying the Israeli's who would stand up to these brutes. You have certainly managed to convey an image of someone with a serious moral deficit. I suppose the US should have stayed out of the Second World War also. Messing with those Nazis was HELL. Oh, and those Japanese Kamikaze Pilots! Whew!! Hey, come to think of it , they should never have messed with the darn British either. That HELLISH war went on for seven HELLISH years. And the civil war?? Those fucking slaves caused all those problems. Well, I guess, we shall decide all future decisions of this country baced on whether we are likely to provoke the ire of some sick suicidal fucks "with the most biggest balls in the world." In fact, why not just dispense with democracy, and simply hire a panel of "experts" to determine if any of our policies are likely to offend anyone who might be inclined to spontaneously combust on our soil.

Just a little curious about this one, so maybe you'd indulge me for a moment. When you say "we put them there" what exactly do you mean?? In other words: it seems like you're saying that the United States was the one who somehow created the State of Israel. But I can't be sure that that is in fact what you mean, so I was wondering if youl'd mind clarifying that point. I can't imagine you'd be so willing to publicly parade your ignorance of history in this manner. Who knows.

When you overcome your childish need to label those with whom you disagree as bigots, racists and agents of Mossad you may take care then to formulate a coherent thought on the matter at hand. Whether you wish to call what Israel is doing right or wrong is really beside the point. But to imagine for a moment that Israel is not going to take whatever measures are necessary to secure its existence is just plain folly. Last week Arafat offered a complete ceas-fire after the Passover carnage. Most likely he did so realizing the Israeli response to the massacre would be ferocious. It was, however, too little too late. Yet the mere fact that Arafat made the offer at all was indication enough that he felt he could deliver. So why did he not deliver before?? Isn't it because he believes that his political situation is advanced by the actions of the suicide bombers?? That he in fact supports it, and has no intention of doing any thing to end it. Unless, that is, the price of doing nothing becomes unbearably high, as it may now be. Arafat did not use his police to end terrorism against the Israeli's, therefore they served no function in this regard as far as Israel is concerned. So the Israeli's shall commence the dismantling of Arafat's apparatus to insure that it, at least, will not be used against them. It then, further, becomes necessary for Israel to do the job the Palestinians were never willing to do: apprehend those responsible for the attacks against Israeli's citizens.The Israeli government, accountable to its people, is charged with the security of its people. At this present time it has no option but to take any and all measures to secure these noble goals. We here would expect no less of our own Government. Why would one think Israel should be any different??

And all this after watching the news, mind you. Perhaps, though, you might watch the news a little more carefully in future. Or just simply watch the news a little more, period. Then you might eventually learn that Sharon is not a "President" but a Prime Minister. That we don't generally shoot people for looking like "the hunchback of notredam." That who is and who his not a "war criminal" is usually determined by a court of law and not by someone on a message board. That as the "jewish people" didn't cause the last world war your imputation that they are "gonna cause another world war" is nothing more than a vile, repugnant and extremely ill-informed calumny. You blame the Jews for all the problems and call them "fucking idiots." Yet strangely, before you became so well schooled on events in the Middle East after watching the news (once??) you say you thought the Israeli's were "angels." Really!! The only relevant question then becomes: Who is really the fucking idiot here???

Well as usual you've sought to air-brush the Palestinian violence completely out of the picture. I have not seen one post yet, not one, where you did not say that the problem was the result of Israeli action, or more specifically, the fault of Sharon. You'd think the Palestinians were still hurling stones here. I realize that it is quite difficult to convince civilized people that WILLFULLY killing as many Jewish civilians as possible is part of some great cause. You, therefore, have managed to completely ignore the nasty matter, and proceed to pretend that the Israeli's are back in the "West Bank" simply out of badness. But this self- delusion only serves to expose your perfideous agenda. Either that or you are completely vacuous. And don't talk nonsense about International law. Must every law go unenforced except the ones that apply to Israel?? Who in the "international" community has had to endure wave after wave of suicide attacks on their civilian population?? France?? I don't think so. But when France had a problem in Algeria, or more accurately when the Algerians had a problem with France, the French were less than concerned with the niceties of International law. And the same can be said of the British and all the rest. So we can take it all with a grain of salt. It's all very fine playing by the book when both sides have the same rule book. It's a little different when a Passover sedar is considered a "legitimate target." If Israeli forces are acting barbarically, as you say, then are we entitled to conclude that you don't feel the actions of the Palestinians are also barbaric?? When Israeli civilians are deliberately targeted for suicide bombings, as the Palestinians have undeniably done, and someone discussing this situation cannot even bring himself to condemn these deeds, nay, even mention them, I don't feel too compelled to treat that person as a someone other than a completely biased individual, with absolutely no insight beyond that mandated by his rigorous ideological bent. Your convoluted reference to an "apartheidistic ethnic state" was to Jordan or Iraq?? Or was that Saudi Arabia or Syria or Iran or Egypt or kuwait?? You have to be a little more clear with your derogations when there are just so many States in the region to choose from. A democracy, on the other hand, you know, where the people have an opportunity to decide whom they wish to represent them, has but one flag bearer in the entire region. And even you breaksny, ought to know who that is. And this democracy, surrounded as it is on all sides by countries who never wanted, or accepted its presence, is now in a fight for its very existence. The US government supports that existence which no doubt bothers some people, but nobody whom we should care too much for. And when the US itself was threatened it responded much more harshly than Israel currently is responding to a similar threat. It went to Afganistan and dropped bombs by the plane load and removed the despicable Taliban from that country. No doubt the success of the US in this matter bothered you and others, but given your barely-concealed contempt for this country, that's hardly surprising or indeed relevant. Nor is your contempt for Israel's right to defend itself. Your concern is for those who would, given the chance, destroy Israel. And indeed, for that matter, those who would destroy this country. If memory serves me correctly, several weeks ago you were harping on about what you perceived as injustice against the prisoners in cuba. No, not the ones held by Castro, mind you, as they're housed in five star accomodation, and don't merit any concern, but the ones under the care of the savage Americans. Sometimes you've just gotta pity the left. How mightily they have fallen. Now they've been reduced to pleading the cause of a bunch of suicidal fanatics, tyrants and rogue operators, where once they ran entire Continents.