US Planning to Recruit 1 in 24 Americans as Spies

[t0nythelover]

your right igloo, nothing can justify the deaths of all the innocent people on 9/11, but you have to realize who is really responsible thats all im saying. im not anti-american or anti-democracy or leftist or whatever you think i am. heres some facts for you so you dont say that i am a moron and talk meaningless shit. i really would like you to convince me of your argument because i actually do give a damn about this country. i was born and raised in nyc and i was at the wtc that day so dont tell me i dont know whats up. i can tell you that i was downtown for about 6 hours and i saw police and firemen doing their best and even construction workers, doctors and hundreds of other concerned citizens volunteering to help. i was there and everyone was like yo wheres the mayor, wheres the president, wtf are we gonna do and they didnt say or do shit till the next day. the biggest concern for washington people was that Chelsea Clinton was downtown and they wanted to find her. As for the whole race issue im not gonna get into that on this post but heres a few facts about your beloved government:

1. The United States armed and trained forces in Afghanistan to fight the Soviets. Furthermore after defeating the Soviets there was a power vacuum in Afghanistan that allowed the "terrorist", who we trained to take power and violate international laws such as human rights laws etc. Not only did this happen but earlier in the year prior to 9/11 Afghanistan leaders decided to destroy Buddhist statues that were thousands of years old and they gave a warning saying there will be no other influences in Islamic land except for Islam.

2. Bush had a previous warning of the coming attack and did nothing. I don't know if you know but the U.S. embassies and consuls always declare when there is a threat to americans abroad, and Bush couldn't just make a statement to let the people know there might be trouble. All he had to say was "we suspect their might be terrorist attacks" and people would be on the look out, not to mention it would probably let the terrorist know that were on to them.

3. The United States has continually fucked up big time in foreign policy issues. From Korea, to Vietnam, to Cuba (Bay of Pigs), to the shores of Tripoli. Do you know why? According to the constitution the "President is the sole executor of foreing affairs", meaning anything he says goes. According to the Constitution only Congress can declare war, but war hasn't been declared since WWII. So countless Americans died simpy because one man decided to go to war.

4. The United States will probably have terrorist attacks from South America pretty soon. There is something called the School of the America's that is in the United States. Latin American "freedom fighters" are trained to do the bidding of the united states. They fight against gov'ts in south america in order to put in american supporting governments. These soldiers then go to south america and often use their skills to train more soldiers who become rebel armies that fight each other and kidnap americans to support their cause. http://www.soaw.org/new/

5. Americans have the lowest voting percentage of ANY western democratic nation. Why is that, because people overall have become disillusioned with the American political system. So are we all just crazy leftist after all?

6. Anyone who knows how the law works knows that once american citizens are allowed to spy on each other that will open the door for much more civil and privacy rights violations. And you and I both know that this is a convienient way to control minorities and the poor.

In conclusion Igloo I'd like to say that I am seriously trying to figure out how or why this spy thing would be a good idea. Please try not to attack me personally over my views. If you have a personal problem with me you can pm me and we can meet somewhere to settle it. Otherwise I look foward to hearing you oppinions. In the words of Voltaire "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it."

Voltaire (Attributed); originated in "The Friends of Voltaire", 1906, by S. G. Tallentyre (Evelyn Beatrice Hall)

and "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

Voltaire

"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."

Voltaire

and finally a quote that i feel is very applicable to this thread. "I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it."

Voltaire

[t0nythelover]

no response igloo?

[igloo]

Originally posted by sassa

he's a former congressman because he got sick of the government's bullshit.

don't you have anything else better to say than all this ignorant bullshit? it's getting repetitive....i know for sure now you're probably going to post the same shit over now once you've read this...i only hope that when you go through life, people will see through right you for the moron that you are.

Sassa....seriously, please pull your head out of your ass long enough to kill yourself....you have become so pathetic that you actually using the same language I used to describe your repulsive being....

Is it that difficult for you to generate original thought, even when trying to hurl insults?....or is your mind too preoccupied with posting unbalanced articles?

End your life

[igloo]

Originally posted by t0nythelover

no response igloo?

Son, you should know me better by now.

If you are asking me if I am aware of some of the things you are saying, the answer is yes. You are not really saying anything that is earth-shattering, so I am not sure what you are trying to prove. Some stuff is simply ridiculous.

You are also say you are not anti-US, but then say "your beloved govt", so I again question where you are coming from.

I will say that I would like to here more about your fact # 4. I do not know enough about that to comment. But what I do know is that S.America does represent a potential Al Qaeda staging area, especially with the countries there is disarray, particulary the border region between Peru, Brazil and Argentina, or Paruguay maybe (I think I got that right, forgot the exact countries named). Just read about how it is a completely lawless area, and they have already detected some activity there.

By saying Bush had prior warning to the attacks is just downright wrong. And it is statements like this that infuriate me, and simply sound like leftist conspiracy theories attacking Bush. It is completely ridiculous. Think about what you are saying, objectively. We can spend days on this, but I think "what Bush knew" is a dead issue, rightfully so, and a ridiculous, ineffective cheap political ploy that backfired for the Sassa's of this country.

On your first point, I do agree that I believe the US made a mistake leaving the influence in the area to Pakistan and the Saudi's, but they were our shadow allies in ousting the SOviets, and represented Russia-Iran deterance for the US going forward. US had different goals back then, and we can get into an entire nation building discussion. I will admit I struggle with this one in gaining clarity on what would have been the best approach.

If you are really interested though in understanding the geopolitics of the area that gave birth to the Taliban, read a book by Ahmed Rashid. Good perspective. Fascinating oil politics is discussed as well. Iam reading a book right now by Rohan Gunaratna, who claims that Al Qaeda was really behind the destruction of the Buddha's, which is different account of what I have read before. Either way, disgusting.

With respects to "American spying on each other", I simply feel you and Sassadick are completely blowing things out of proportion, as all good leftists do. And ask Sassa to post some balance to the articles and ultra-left print she usually provides, and then formulate your opinion. But to rant and rave half-cocked based on one thing she posts is idiosy.

The world has changed post 9-11, and in a big way. The threat to this country is real, and I suggest you gain a deeper understanding of what is happening. There is going to have to be a different shift in the balance between civil liberties and what this govt has to do in order for them to truly protect us, which is the ultimate responsibility of our govt. Remember the same liberties that make this country great, is exactly what our enemies are using against us. We must adapt.

We must always, as citizens, stand up for our freedoms and always question our govt when we believe they are being infringed upon. But we also must take a dose of reality, and come to grips some things must change. We are in a WAR, irrespective of what Sassa and her schmuck kind think. I for one will never forget the comments that pig made right after 9/11, and that is why I will continually be on her shit, because she is a repulsive human being.

Lastly, if I may make one more reading suggestion, pick up a book called Bin Laden by Yossef Bodansky. Some wild reading, but conceptually gives you an appreciation of the struggle that lies ahead, and what our enemies truly intend for this country. You may have a different view on things.

[t0nythelover]

"You are also say you are not anti-US, but then say "your beloved govt", so I again question where you are coming from."-in response to this, i consider myself an american, but that does not mean i am satisfied with the gov't. i love this country but i am not blind to the fact that there are many corrupt individuals running the gov't. does that really make me "anti-american"

"I will say that I would like to here more about your fact # 4. I do not know enough about that to comment. But what I do know is that S.America does represent a potential Al Qaeda staging area, especially with the countries there is disarray, particulary the border region between Peru, Brazil and Argentina, or Paruguay maybe (I think I got that right, forgot the exact countries named). Just read about how it is a completely lawless area, and they have already detected some activity there."- ill try to find more articles on this, its interesting. i know in columbia and countries from the south of mexico and to the north of south america there are many of these problems that create a real threat to the usa because of thier close proximity to our land. i just wanted you to know that if something happens, we trained them too.

"By saying Bush had prior warning to the attacks is just downright wrong."-actually during the summer of last year while on vacation (i think at camp david) president bush did recieve a memo from the cia and possibly info from other sources as well. but i know for a fact he did know that it was a very likely chance that we would be attacked. his response was to have his press secretary release a statement saying that "the information they had was not enough to shut down the airline industry because it would be bad for business" and i think thats lame. all they had to do was keep everyone on a higher alert and maybe these guys would have been picked up with their boxcutters.

"The world has changed post 9-11, and in a big way. The threat to this country is real, and I suggest you gain a deeper understanding of what is happening. There is going to have to be a different shift in the balance between civil liberties and what this govt has to do in order for them to truly protect us, which is the ultimate responsibility of our govt. Remember the same liberties that make this country great, is exactly what our enemies are using against us. We must adapt."- in response to this i have to say that i absolutely agree that 9/11 was a wakeup call to americans showing the lack of security and of our government and the lack of efficiency of our security agencies. I also do know that during war the government has the right to temporarily revoke certain rights from the people. I just think that this specific spy idea isnt so great, but i guess well have to agree to disagree on that. Those same freedoms we enjoy do put us at risk, but we must maintain who we are and what we beleive in because once we start acting like them we are no better than them. How would this sound to you, hypothetically don't you think it would be cheaper and more effective to have a national hotline run by the govt where people can call to report suspicious terrorist activity, that way instead of just 1 in 24, all people can report shit, and the govt doesnt have to rely on people that might have faulty characters. like what would happen if a terrorist became one of these u.s. spies?

finally id like to say thank you igloo for finally taking the time to give a response that was more than just angry name calling. i dont agree with all that you say but much of it is valid. i guess we both agree that the u.s. needs to change for security reasons, we just disagree on how it should be done.