100 Poets Against The War

[luiskain]

And I salute Cintron, my blood brother in solidarity...although more diplomatic and tactful.

[Drunk]

Originally posted by cintron

There is NO carpet bombing that goes on today. Even baack then, bombers were capable of taking out a single bridge with their bombload.

Bad facts. See e.g., http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache:Ca1KGwy4ZgUC:news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1632000/1632521.stm+%22carpet+bombing%22+%22gulf+war%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

The keywords are hilighted for you. Plus, Carpet bombing is what B-52's do, we still do it.

And yes, 93% of the bombs in Iraq were "dumb" bombs, not precision munitions.

For video: http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1630000/video/_1632114_attacks_adams13_vi.ram

[cintron]

Originally posted by Drunk

Bad facts. See e.g., http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache:Ca1KGwy4ZgUC:news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1632000/1632521.stm+%22carpet+bombing%22+%22gulf+war%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

The keywords are hilighted for you. Plus, Carpet bombing is what B-52's do, we still do it.

And yes, 93% of the bombs in Iraq were "dumb" bombs, not precision munitions.

For video: http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1630000/video/_1632114_attacks_adams13_vi.ram

read my post more carefully. Linebacker over Hanoi.

That is vietnam.

As applied today in the gulf, "carpet bombing" as a technique is different from what it used to be.

Carpet bombing used to be the systematic dropping of munitions over a large area regardless of civilian casualties or collateral damage.

Today Carpet bombing is not so accurate a description.

The BBC uses the term carpet bombing, but that is nowhere near the reality of what is actually being dropped. when a B52 unloads it's payload, technically it is "carpet bombing" an area based upon the size and shape of the impact area.

However, as it refers to where the munitions are dropped, it does not in any way touch the carpet bombing raids of WWII, Korea or Vietnam, where large amounts of munitions were dropped over populated targets.

My cousin is a B52 bombardier stationed in diego garcia. i know what the B52's do and what they are capable. i take my information from him, not from a news service.

[loch]

Originally posted by luiskain

Cite where you got this 10% smart bomb \ 90% "carpet bombing" stat from.

funny enough, that was not from any underground source:

cia/pentagon analysts interviewed on charlie rose (broadcast

journalist from 60 minutes). for $15, you can order the transcript.

Radical liberals like you...

it behooves you to know that i'm middle-of-the-specturm with a

more reasoned response than any left-wing or right-wing

fanatic, and hold nothing as absolute, from ANY source. i hold

reservations for all sources of information, even the "fuckin

underground....radical liberals". actually, i have a distaste for

them as well.

your endless stream of rants revolves around polarizing left-wing-

radical-tree-huggers vs. right-ring-ultra-conservative-money-

grubbers. that seems to be your gripe and sustained comeback

for every argument. unconvincing and counter-productive if you

ask me, if not entirely pointless.

my argument disregards all of that; it is apolitical and aims to

appeal to reason, rationale, and awareness. observe those

boundaries when you respond; you've already demonstrated

some restraint of reason and logic in a few responses. (and i will

retract the suggestive "euphemisms" i've mentioned.)

[loch]

Originally posted by cintron

Granted there will always be collateral damage and casualties in war. However, due to the dispersement of iraqi military equipment and the relatively large and open terrain of the desert, it's relatively easy to hit targets without fear of excessive collateral damage.

point taken and well observed even before you spelled it out to

me. i understand it is the military's best interest to "control" such

bombings and honestly believe that they strive to achieve this.

but the point isn't what percentage of smart-bombs or dumb-

bombs were used, or the number of casualties the military

inadvertently inflicts on innocent bystanders. the point was to

illustrate to our friend up there that he has illusions about war,

[because he thinks] that an entire military campaign is carried

out with smart bombs. plain and simple, easy and quick. it was

disturbing to see that he said it with such self-assuredness and

absolute proclamation, even in a ridiculing manner ("Ok, let's get

something straight...that's why there's smart bombs...")

[cintron]

Originally posted by loch

an entire military campaign is carried out with smart bombs.

plain and simple, easy and quick.

hah... it could be easier to hit targets but an ENTIRE campaign with guided bombs? omg think of the bill to the taxpayer...

[loch]

Originally posted by cintron

Two rules that as old as time itself:

- War is hell.

- Innocent people die.

when people accept this fact, then perhaps they can realize that there is work that needs to be done to prevent more innocent people from dying at the hands of someone who values life far less than we do.

we don't have to like the realities we are forced to deal with. (i certainly don't).

but we must deal with them and burying our heads in the sand will not fix the problems.

you make reasonable arguments and you know what? i AGREE with you. i've said it before, so i'll say it again: war is a necessary evil

and here's the kicker (since i'm now dragged into this):

i think that it very well may be necessary in this case, based solely, for the time being, on this argument (which both critics and supporters have asked): where is the clear and present danger/imminent threat?

i believe that different threats call for different responses, obviously:

1. threat from a gov't that is conscious of humanity's welfare (i.e. the nuclear powers developed weapons with a conscience; even india, if i understand correctly, developed nuclear weapons as a means of deterrent and intimidation, given its hostile neighbors, and not for agression purposes). you can manage this threat through containment and international diplomatic pressure...

versus...

2. threat from gov't proven to be brutal, murderous, and oppressive, not to mention having ulterior motives (saddam hussein does not have a conscience). most leaders in the international community, despite their reservations for war and their current appeal to resolve this diplomatically, do not dispute the fact that hussein is an evil dictator. and when diplomacy so far has failed miserably and resolutions have yielded only deceit and continued proliferation, then force must be used.

and there you have it. but you see, my point all along has been war is brutal. and not enough discussion is about consequences and the destruction that ensues. this thread is simply an ode to those casualties, even in my belief that war is an evil necessity.

to paraphrase something i recently heard: why is it that innocent lives lost through war is less valuable than preserving other lives in the name of peace and freedom? i don't know. and i don't have an answer. yet, i realize it just is.

[loch]

Ode to all concerned with that ‘baby milk ’ factory

Bombs go off and so does milk,

And both events make you grumpy,

But given the choice between the two,

I ’d rather have milk that ’s lumpy.

-Helên Thomas

[luiskain]

I'm going to say one more thing and let this thing die. I never fucking realized how many sickofad nerds there were on this board. And at every turn, it just gets nerdier and nerdier. Nobody reads your essays...they're dull and long winded and oozes pretention.

Who the fuck are you tryin to impress here? you write shit like "it behooves me." Who the fuck says it behooves me? Ok, you proved your point. When in HS, you stayed home to jerk off to english composition and target practice at popping pimples on the mirror while everyone neglected their study and went out to have fun. "I"ll show them!" you brooded.

Then in college, while your roomates were bringing girls to your room, you would burn the midnight oil with steadfast disregard towards any social life. "For I must not be behooved by distractions!"

And now, sweet sweet reward. You can try to prove to the world what havoc a pointdexter can dish out...by funneling every big word imaginable and chaining them together into hackneyed sentences that just makes you look like a blatant nerd with an academic chip on his shoulder.

This is a fun site about fun things and fun people, not the Oxford gathering of the minds.

O'er great poet, MARK: Any chimp can write like you. The evolved being knows when and where to do so.

[loch]

*laughing* uhm, thanks? your projections are close, but not quite. i'm what you call a "recycling technician" (garbage collector), and get my composition from money grubbing republicans that dump their old literature on the upper west side.

if you're going to call anybody out, at least have the balls to back it up. instead, when your theory based on assinine assumptions and on the premise of "radical-tree-hugging-liberals" was shot, you shrivel up and resort to personal insults, and in doing so, paid this garbage collector who supports a war, a back-handed compliment. thanks, but it doesn't take much to form coherent sentences. you should bury yourself in trash sometimes, that's how i got my start.

and please, DO let this thread die. it's quite poetic, actually, given the subject matter.

[ferris2]

your right...lets not take military action against saddam...we'll just talk with him and listen to him keep bullshitting us. in the meantime he will figure out how to get that nuke, or get all his chemical weapons over here and use them on us.

wake up.

[ferris2]

[chrismakk69]

Originally posted by luiskain

I'm going to say one more thing and let this thing die. I never fucking realized how many sickofad nerds there were on this board. And at every turn, it just gets nerdier and nerdier. Nobody reads your essays...they're dull and long winded and oozes pretention.

Who the fuck are you tryin to impress here? you write shit like "it behooves me." Who the fuck says it behooves me? Ok, you proved your point. When in HS, you stayed home to jerk off to english composition and target practice at popping pimples on the mirror while everyone neglected their study and went out to have fun. "I"ll show them!" you brooded.

Then in college, while your roomates were bringing girls to your room, you would burn the midnight oil with steadfast disregard towards any social life. "For I must not be behooved by distractions!"

And now, sweet sweet reward. You can try to prove to the world what havoc a pointdexter can dish out...by funneling every big word imaginable and chaining them together into hackneyed sentences that just makes you look like a blatant nerd with an academic chip on his shoulder.

This is a fun site about fun things and fun people, not the Oxford gathering of the minds.

O'er great poet, MARK: Any chimp can write like you. The evolved being knows when and where to do so.

hahahahahahahahahahaaahaahaah