while im bashing vic here

[Guest jroo]

QUIT USING EPHDRINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! no more xendrine, or ripped fuel, or hydroxycut or any of that shit. for real. a baseball player the other day died. major leauger. he took 3 xenidriennes' the doesage is 2. people are seriously dying from this shit. it was on the news last night. also a girl who is 23 took it and had a stroke, no control over her right hand was married, now divorced, and has communication problems now. there was that college soccer player who took one ripped fuel and died on the field. even the military has banned all products from sales in any military store, soliders are dying from it too. do yourself a favor and pick up another habbit. ive used them before too. and i dont anymore.

[merkie]

They are very bad for your heart. I only took ripped fuel once and i thought my heart was going to explode. I will never take them again.

Scary stuff.

[velvetgoldmire]

Actually, he was a minor league baseball player, making the overall value of his death much less impactful. Take as much ephedrine as you want!

j/k

The death of Steve Buecheler is quite tragic (not to say that the death of anyone under related circumstances isn't equally tragic). I don't understand why MLB still hasn't made it illegal, since all other pro sports have.

Just cause something is "all natural" doesn't mean that it's any safer than regular drugs. Be careful out there!

[vicman]

yet i can still get them at any corner drug store. go figure.

havent read the recent news about the orioles pitcher today, but if he was dehydrated the ripped fuel probably didnt help. and you know that the media hypes it all up, like the wrestling kids who took it to drop weight before a contest it was all over the media...the media didnt mention that they were wearing those plastic sweat suites to drop body weight.

there is enough research out there saying that its safe when you take it as indicated i've seriously had no problem with it since i've taken it.

people say the same thing about creatine and say the same thing about protein supplements and about going low carb and about low fat, but i base my decision on using or not using stuff on the scientific research out there. if some people dont know how to adequately take a certain supplement then they shouldnt have taken it.

[vicman]

Among other factors cited by Perper as contributing to the 23-year-old pitcher's death:

-- a history of borderline high blood pressure;

-- liver abnormalities detected two years ago but not diagnosed;

-- warm, humid weather during the workout when he became ill Sunday;

-- he was on a diet and hadn't eaten much solid food the previous two days.

``All of those factors converged together and resulted in the fatal heatstroke,'' Perper

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-orioles-bechlerdeath&prov=ap&type=lgns

[Guest jroo]

true, he took it on an empty stomach. you can trust the scientist if you want. its up to you. if the military banned it, then it MUST be bad shit.

case closed.

[cookiegirl]

Originally posted by jroo

if the military banned it, then it MUST be bad shit.

*cough*

Like Buzz?

[Guest jroo]

Originally posted by cookiegirl

*cough*

Like Buzz?

yeah, the military also has a rule, if one person fucks up , then they fuck it up for everyone.

p.s. i dont know what i am, but liberals and conservitives are really wierd to me. what other catergories are there?

[cookiegirl]

jroo - try this quiz

it's short but gives you a great idea of where you are politically.

I agree that in the military, their own rules of who fucks up and when and why and where and what are all good. But their rules affected people outside of the military world when they went after Buzz.

[vicman]

i'm not liberal or conservative. anyway, there was a case of the military...airforce to be precise had given some pilots these "alert pills" (they had ephedrine) when flying long missions, i.e. 20hr plus.

well the pilots took them "under the advice" of USAF. the pilots fucked up and by mistake shot down a friendly plane. the pilots are being courtmarshalled by USAF because they fucked up and shot down the plane. the pilots are taking them to court because the "alert pills" didnt work at all.

so anyways, they are not banned, they use them and "advice" their people to take them under certain circumstances. i dont know where i am going with this, so if anyone knows, please let me know, but i wouldnt trust the military 100%. at the end everyone just wants to cover their own ass.

[Guest jroo]

Originally posted by vicman

i'm not liberal or conservative. anyway, there was a case of the military...airforce to be precise had given some pilots these "alert pills" (they had ephedrine) when flying long missions, i.e. 20hr plus.

well the pilots took them "under the advice" of USAF. the pilots fucked up and by mistake shot down a friendly plane. the pilots are being courtmarshalled by USAF because they fucked up and shot down the plane. the pilots are taking them to court because the "alert pills" didnt work at all.

so anyways, they are not banned, they use them and "advice" their people to take them under certain circumstances. i dont know where i am going with this, so if anyone knows, please let me know, but i wouldnt trust the military 100%. at the end everyone just wants to cover their own ass.

when was this? p.s. for your general knowledge, NO attack plane can fly for more than 2 hours. so I call bullshit. big time. now for the quiz.

i also dont believe that everything the military does is right at all. i believe that if they ban it then it must be bad. and we know why buzz got shut down. the promoters knew about the drugs and allowed it to go on. right?

[Guest jroo]

Originally posted by cookiegirl

jroo - try this quiz

it's short but gives you a great idea of where you are politically.

I agree that in the military, their own rules of who fucks up and when and why and where and what are all good. But their rules affected people outside of the military world when they went after Buzz.

ok, now somebody tell me what this means?

Your Political Philosophy:

According to your answers, your political philosophy is left-liberal.

Left-Liberal

Left-Liberals prefer self-government in personal matters and central decision-making on economics. They want government to serve the disadvantaged in the name of fairness. Leftists tolerate social diversity, but work for economic equality.

Your Personal Self-Government Score is 80%.

Your Economic Self-Government Score is 20%.

[Guest jroo]

i also believe some of this too

Libertarian

Libertarians are self-governors in both personal and economic matters. They believe government's only purpose is to protect people from coercion and violence. They value individual responsibility, and tolerate economic and social diversity.

[Guest jroo]

thats why i hate this shit, why cant we all be independant. there is no way that someone has all the same views as one class, is there?

[cookiegirl]

'Friendly fire' pilots: Air Force pushes 'go pills'

Lawyers say amphetamines led to accidental killing

NEW ORLEANS, Louisiana (AP) --A lawyer for one of two U.S. pilots who released a bomb over southern Afghanistan in April, accidentally killing four Canadian soldiers, says the Air Force had pressured the pilots to take amphetamines that may have impaired their judgment during the mission.

Majs. Harry Schmidt and William Umbach face a possible court-martial for dropping the laser-guided bomb near Kandahar on April 17. An Air Force investigation determined the pilots "demonstrated poor airmanship" and ignored standard procedure by not making sure there were no allied troops in the area.

Air Force: Pills are 'fatigue management tool'

But Umbach's lawyer, David Beck, said he would show at a January 13 hearing on whether to court-martial the pilots that the Air Force routinely pressures pilots to take dexamphetamine, a prescription drug also known as "go pills." He said the drug can impair judgment and is not recommended for people operating heavy equipment.

Beck said the Air Force prevents pilots from flying if they refuse to take the pills.

Air Force spokeswoman Lt. Jennifer Ferrau acknowledged the pills are used as a "fatigue management tool" to help pilots stay alert through long missions. But she said that use of the pills is voluntary, and that their effects have been thoroughly tested.

"There have been decades of study on their efficacy and practicality," she said. "The surgeon general worked very closely with commanders on this."

'I am rolling in, in self-defense'

Beck and Charles W. Gittins, Schmidt's lawyer, said the Air Force's investigation is full of errors. Beck said the pilots were not told in advance that allies were holding combat exercises, and that Schmidt dropped the bomb in self-defense after seeing gunfire on the ground.

"What happened was a terrible tragedy. You don't honor (the victims) by wrongfully prosecuting these pilots," Beck said. "This is political appeasement of Canadians who are angry."

Ferrau said Air Force officials would not comment on specifics of the case.

On the night of the bombing, 15 Canadian soldiers were practicing anti-tank attacks with live ammunition at Tarnak Farm, a former al Qaeda training camp. A Canadian report said the soldiers were using firearms ranging from sidearms to shoulder-fired anti-tank weapons.

Schmidt and Umbach were flying F-16s toward their base after six hours of a mission in which "no significant events occurred," the Air Force report said.

Just after midnight, they spotted gunfire on the ground and reported it to flight controllers. One of the pilots asked for permission to fire his 20-millimeter cannon and was told to wait, according to the Air Force investigators' report.

Sixteen seconds later, Schmidt reported surface-to-air fire and said he was going to "roll in," or attack the shooters.

"I've got some men on a road and it looks like a piece of artillery firing at us," Umbach said, according to the report. "I am rolling in, in self-defense."

Schmidt released the bomb, which landed about three feet from a Canadian machine gun crew. Killed instantly were Sgt. Marc Leger, Cpl. Ainsworth Dyer, Pvt. Richard Green and Pvt. Nathan Smith.

The Air Force report said Schmidt soon asked controllers, "Can you confirm that they were shooting at us?"

The controller did not answer, but said "friendlies" could be on the ground nearby, the report said. The controller told Schmidt and Umbach to return to their base.

Air Force investigators concluded that Schmidt and Umbach should have left the area when they spotted gunfire to allow time to determine its source. Remaining in the area led to the pilots' misperception that they were under attack, the investigators said.

But the pilots' lawyers said Schmidt and Umbach had good reason to believe they were being attacked. Beck said it's unusual for troops to conduct night exercises in a combat zone.

"How dare you do a training exercise at night in a combat zone?" Beck said. "And how dare you not tell the pilots?"

The deaths, Canada's first combat fatalities since the Korean War, sparked anger among many Canadians, some of whom questioned their country's role in the American-led war on terrorism.

Beck said Air Force officers should take the blame, because their communications system did not inform the pilots that the gunfire came from allies.

The hearing, to be held at Barksdale Air Force Base in Bossier City, is expected to last two weeks. Afterward, a recommendation on whether to court-martial the pilots will be delivered to Lt. Gen. Bruce Carlson, commander of the 8th Air Force, who will make the final decision. The 8th Air Force is based at Barksdale.

Schmidt and Umbach face charges of involuntary manslaughter, aggravated assault and dereliction of duty. If convicted of all charges, they face a maximum of 64 years in military prison.

Find this article at:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/01/02/mistaken.bombing

[vicman]

Originally posted by jroo

when was this? p.s. for your general knowledge, NO attack plane can fly for more than 2 hours. so I call bullshit. big time. now for the quiz.

i also dont believe that everything the military does is right at all. i believe that if they ban it then it must be bad. and we know why buzz got shut down. the promoters knew about the drugs and allowed it to go on. right?

well it was on CNN like a month and a half ago, so i assume that you can find it on their web site. i know what i saw although i probably have all those small details all messed up.

the military as with any other institution just sees that their interest is met. if it isnt, it isnt, but the try and they carry a very big weight.

you know of cases of servicemen overseas raping local women and the military turns a blind eye, so not eveything that happens in there (as in a lot of other places) is necessarily right. they just look after their interest.

[Guest jroo]

Originally posted by cookiegirl

"I've got some men on a road and it looks like a piece of artillery firing at us," Umbach said, according to the report. "I am rolling in, in self-defense."

Find this article at:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/01/02/mistaken.bombing

i believe that they should have rolled out, not in, in self defense. those pills lead to anxiety, damn i cant spell. those pilots were scared and itching to drop a bomb. if i remember correctly it was a reserve pilot too. who was also an instructor at top gun, or some flight school, i cant remember now. if combat doesnt give you enough adrennaline to stay awake, then you are a sick sick man or woman.

[vicman]

after 20hrs of flying regardless you probably still get tired. if they were reserve then i dont think they shouldve been flying such a long mission. but a lot of stuff doesnt make sense. like medical students and physiscians being put on 72hr rotations, what type of service does a hospital expect someone with 3 days of no sleep to give, then when they mess up, the physician gets blamed and has a malpractice suit against him.

if he refuses to go on 72 or 48 hr rotation then he gets the shaft. fucking HMO's. and the patient still gets bad service.

[Guest jroo]

Originally posted by vicman

well it was on CNN like a month and a half ago, so i assume that you can find it on their web site. i know what i saw although i probably have all those small details all messed up.

the military as with any other institution just sees that their interest is met. if it isnt, it isnt, but the try and they carry a very big weight.

you know of cases of servicemen overseas raping local women and the military turns a blind eye, so not eveything that happens in there (as in a lot of other places) is necessarily right. they just look after their interest.

the article said 6 hours, so maybe a f-16 can fly farther than an f-14, but another rule with pilots is that they can only fly 8 hours a day and then they have to have rest. and i agree with you totally about the "in the best interest of" . about the rapings, the stress of war is too much for some people. its sad and sick, but it happens.

[Guest jroo]

Originally posted by vicman

after 20hrs of flying regardless you probably still get tired. if they were reserve then i dont think they shouldve been flying such a long mission. but a lot of stuff doesnt make sense. like medical students and physiscians being put on 72hr rotations, what type of service does a hospital expect someone with 3 days of no sleep to give, then when they mess up, the physician gets blamed and has a malpractice suit against him.

if he refuses to go on 72 or 48 hr rotation then he gets the shaft. fucking HMO's. and the patient still gets bad service.

now we're touching on why i dont like people that much. they do stupid shit. i will agree that the no sleep is good training, but shouldnt be done by a student. and should be VERY closely monitored. about the reservists, the military sends them in first. which is something that ive never understood. while the active duty personnal wait for something bigger to happen. we all know that resevres train one weekend a month and two weeks a year. active duty is about everyday. most resevresist are pior active duty though. nothing is right. everybody sucks. so i vote for peace. and if that dont work just drop the A-bomb. only after trying to assinate the bad guy in power.

[cookiegirl]

February 20, 2003

Despite the Danger Warnings, Ephedra Sells

Ephedra can be combined with caffeine and other substances and is often sold in bottles under names like Metab-O-Lite and Xtreme Lean.

Investigators say it may never be known whether the dietary supplement ephedra contributed to the death of Steve Bechler, the 23-year-old Baltimore Orioles pitcher who died of heatstroke on Monday after collapsing during a workout in the Florida sun.

But what is clear, experts said yesterday, is that ephedra can be dangerous. They said no other dietary supplement on the market had stirred as many warnings and frightening medical histories as ephedra. It has been linked to deaths, to strokes, to heart arrythmias and even to psychotic episodes.

"There certainly are a lot of reasons for concern," said Dr. Mark B. McClellan, the commissioner of the Food and Drug Administration, which has received more than 1,400 reports of adverse effects from ephedra. "There are a lot of adverse events associated with ephedra and ephedra products, and they do have effects on metabolic rates and heart rates."

Yesterday, Tommy G. Thompson, the secretary of Health and Human Services, asked by reporters to comment on ephedra in light of Bechler's death, replied, "I wouldn't use it, would you?"

But despite such warnings, ephedra is widely available — in health food stores and drugstores and on the Internet — and more than $3 billion worth of ephedra products are sold in the United States each year, according to Senator Richard J. Durbin, Democrat of Illinois, who held hearings last October on the use of ephedra in diet supplements.

Ephedra, like other herbal supplements, can be legally sold over the counter under a 1994 law that allows their sale unless they are shown to be unsafe. In contrast, drug makers must prove to the F.D.A. that their drugs have benefits that exceed any risks before they can market them.

Dr. McClellan, of the food and drug agency, said it was "assessing what the proper way to handle ephedra is." It has commissioned a report by the Rand Corporation, to be delivered by spring, he said.

Then, Dr. McClellan added, "you should see some prompt further action from us." If the agency identifies serious risks with the product, he said, it could insist on warning labels or even remove the supplement from the market.

Wes Siegner, a lawyer for the Ephedra Education Council, an industry group, said clinical trials had demonstrated that the substance was safe when used as directed. "You can't use these individual cases to raise more than a question," he added.

Ephedra, a stimulant derived from the Asian drug ma huang, contains a mixture of chemicals, several of which increase blood pressure and heart rate. The most powerful of these chemicals is ephedrine (also used in prescription and nonprescription drugs as a decongestant), which, like an amphetamine, stimulates the central nervous system.

On vitamin-store and drugstore shelves, ephedra is generally sold in small bottles of pills or capsules, often combined with caffeine and other substances. The bottles bear a dizzying array of labels, with names like Xenadrine RFA-1 (the pills that Bechler had been taking), Xtreme Lean and MetaboLoss. The active ingredients, like ephedrine, are typically listed in fine print on the labels in milligrams.

Uses and Side Effects

Dr. Rudoph Leibel, an obesity researcher at Columbia University, said the doses sold in supplements often provide the equivalent of 75 to 90 milligrams a day of ephedrine.

Doctors have prescribed it for weight loss, he said, but patients usually receive about 25 milligrams a day. To make matters worse, Dr. Leibel added, consumers often take even more than the supplement makers recommend. "You can get into a lot of trouble," he said.

The product Bechler took, Xenadrine RFA-1, made by Cytodyne Technologies of Lakewood, N.J., comes in capsules, each containing the equivalent of 20 milligrams of ephedrine. Consumers are advised to take four pills a day and are promised that they are getting a "revolutionary" fat burner that is "clinically proven to dramatically increase the rate of fat loss significantly more than diet and exercise alone."

Ephedra has been widely used by athletes and is banned in several sports, though not by organized baseball. In the last decade, athletes who tested positive for ephedrine or ephedra have been suspended, penalized or stripped of medals and honors in sports including track and field, swimming, gymnastics, soccer and professional football.

"I've taken it in the past," Nick Johnson, a Yankees first baseman, said. But he added that the news of Bechler's death was "scary — it's very scary."

"It would be a pretty good idea to stay away from it," he said. "I want to be around for a while."

Sterling Hitchcock, a Yankees pitcher, said: "I've used it. You just have to be smart with it. I've used less than the dosage."

And catcher Mike Lieberthal of the Philadelphia Phillies told The Associated Press: "I used it for energy purposes during workouts. I stopped taking it two years ago when told the supplement could cause severe medical problems."

Ephedra can promote heatstroke in three ways, according to Neal L. Benowitz of the University of California at San Francisco. It speeds metabolism and thus creates extra heat. It constricts blood vessels in the skin, preventing the body from cooling itself efficiently. And by making the user feel more energetic and less fatigued, it keeps him exercising longer.

These effects can be especially harmful in people who are dehydrated, out of shape or overweight, Dr. Benowitz said. Bechler was 6 feet 2 inches and weighed 249 pounds, 10 pounds over his weight at the end of last season.

Dr. Harrison Pope Jr., who is chief of the biological psychiatry laboratory at McLean Hospital at Harvard, said ephedra is effective for weight loss. Virtually every female body builder he has interviewed takes ephedra, he said, and so do many male body builders.

"The reason people take it is that it has a pronounced stimulatory effect," Dr. Pope said. "The more you take, the more effect you get and the more potential fat loss you get. It is a very potent drug, it creates a mild euphoria in many and it increases appetite and increases the rate that you burn calories.

"It is common for people to take a small amount, decide it is innocuous, and then gradually escalate their dose and get into a range with significant side effects."

Researchers' Red Flags

A variety of research studies have called attention to ephedra's dangers. The most recent is to be published next month in The Annals of Internal Medicine and is available now on the journal's Web site (www.acponline.org). In it, Dr. Stephen Bent of the University of California at San Francisco and his colleagues report that ephedra is the most dangerous herbal product on the market.

The researchers, who have consulted for lawyers suing ephedra makers on behalf of injured consumers, say that 64 percent of all reports of adverse reactions to herbal supplements in the United States involve ephedra. Yet products containing ephedra represent only 0.8 percent of all herbal products sold.

"The sale of ephedra as a dietary supplement should be restricted or banned to prevent serious adverse reactions in the general public," they write.

In recent years, ephedra has come under increasing scrutiny from Congress. Senator Durbin's hearing in October focused in part on two products called Yellow Jacket and Black Beauty, both made by NVE Pharmaceuticals of Newton, N.J. Anne Marie Murphy, an aide to Mr. Durbin, noted that Yellow Jacket is the "street name for barbiturates, and Black Beauty is the street name of amphetamines."

A constituent of the senator's, a high school wrestler, died after taking Yellow Jacket, Ms. Murphy said. She added that under Congressional pressure, the company recently stopped making the two products but that it continues to market Stacker2, which contains caffeine and ephedra.

Robert Occhifinto, president of NVE Pharmaceuticals, was convicted of money laundering in the early 1990's in a scheme to supply chemicals used in the manufacture of the illegal stimulant methamphetamine, according to the federal Drug Enforcement Administration. He did not return phone calls left at the company's headquarters seeking comment.

Last month Senator Durbin wrote to Secretary Thompson of the Health and Human Services Department, asking him to ban all ephedra products.

Another leading manufacturer of supplements containing ephedra is Metabolife International of San Diego. Its founder, Michael Ellis, is under investigation by the Justice Department after telling federal regulators that his company had received no "adverse incident" reports involving products with ephedra. Mr. Ellis is no longer with the company.

Ms. Murphy said Congressional investigators had recently found that 2,000 "serious adverse events" had been reported to Metabolife. And last year, an Alabama jury awarded $4.1 million to four people who suffered strokes or heart attacks after taking an ephedra-based appetite suppressant made by the company. Metabolife officials did not return calls seeking comment.

On Long Island, the Suffolk County Legislature recently passed a bill banning ephedra, the only government unit to do so. Legislator Jon Cooper, Democrat from Huntington, who led the campaign to ban ephedra, said he had to overcome a "massive lobbying campaign" mounted by companies in the county that make supplements with ephedra.

He said he expected the bill to be signed into law or vetoed within three weeks, and added that he had enough support to override any veto.

At a Vitamin Shoppe in Greenwich Village in Manhattan yesterday, the shelves of the weight management section were filled with bottles containing ephedra. There were no signs warning about any side effects on the shelves.

When asked if the supplement had any side effects, a store employee said ephedra was dangerous only for people with diabetes. Another clerk said he had heard of people taking it before going to clubs, like Ecstasy. "But a baseball player just died taking it!" a woman in line said. "They just said it on the news."

At Duane Reade on 42nd Street and Eighth Avenue, a pharmacist, Rajesh B. Kumbhani, said he was uncomfortable knowing that ephedra was readily available, given the health risks.

"I don't tell anybody that they should take ephedrine," Mr. Kumbhani said, gesturing at the ephedra next to other weight-loss products. "This is all advertising and marketing. They should take it out."

Copyright 2003 The New York Times Company | Privacy Policy

[vicman]

i'm getting more ripped fuel today.

[sauvee88]

tini!!!! don't forget the ripped fuel for the weekend!!!

[tinybutterfli]

Originally posted by sauvee88

tini!!!! don't forget the ripped fuel for the weekend!!!

I'll bring it for you at the risk of getting yelled at by jroo

[nourishment]

Should the government really have such control over what a citizen (and Vic, too) decides to put into their own body?

We've heard the warnings. Shouldn't we be allowed to choose for ourselves. Cigarettes are legal, alcohol is legal, MDMA is not, Phen-fen was legal for a while.

Seems like skewed judgement to me.

*whew* I feel better after that nice little rant.