Iraq War - Support Our Troops

[obby]

So you are comparing Americans to Nazi's? NICE!!!!!!

I am not out to change anyone's mind. You have to want to understand what's going on. So as long as you refuse to acknowledge the threat that terrorism poses to America, our economy and the WORLD, there will be no convincing you. I think your dead wrong in the way that you see this war. Wherever terrorism rears it's ugly head we (AMERICA) will have to go out and eliminate that threat. Right now it's Iraq and who knows what the future holds (you already named the other threats). Each is a unique circumstance that may require different methods to resolve.

Terrorism (repeat this word because this is what it's ALL about).

If the liberation of the Iraqi people come as a result of our determination to deal with terrorism before terrorism deals with us. Then good for the Iraqi's.

To help put things into perspective, ask yourself. Where you this passionate during Somali, Kosovo, Haiti, The 98 bombing of Iraq and Gulf War 1? If not, what has changed?

For me it's very simple, terrorism.....9/11

Fool me once...... shame on you. Fool me twice......... shame on me.

NEVER AGAIN

You wrote:

"The reason I love this country is because i'm able to debate people like you. That is a freedom I don't think I could live with out".

The Iraqi's will soon have the same Freedom my friend. Thanks to our Troops and our President.

[vipnerd]

Originally posted by obby

To help put things into perspective, ask yourself. Where you this passionate during Somali, Kosovo, Haiti, The 98 bombing of Iraq and Gulf War 1? If not, what has changed?

For me it's very simple, terrorism.....9/11

In all of the above countries we went in with western ... mostly democratic allies ... or at the very least with their approval ...

Your simplicity is yet to be proven correct ... there is no proven link between Iraq and Osama ... furthermore ... as aggressive investors are called bullish ... aggressive political figures are called radicals...

Give some thought to the following ...

In every war but one ... the government had media control ... the one is the one we lost ... Vietnam ...

The government's position with this war ... in terms of allies ... differs from all others ... having most of the world oppossed to the war made it imperative for the White House to have the media on their side in order to have public opinion support their action ...

The embedded reporting we are watching diverts our attention from worldwide repercussions ... coverage ...

But this same embedded reporting puts at risk our own strategic moves in the battlefield ... "we have plenty of water ... food ... but we are low in" ...

The pictures of wounded enemy soldiers ... dead civilians ... have a view in the rest of the world and at home that resemble the infame days of Vietnam ... don't help our position at all ...

According to Michael Savage from "The Savage Nation" (MSNBC Saturdays at 5 pm ... author of the book under the same name ... and conservative talk radio position http://www.msnbc.com/news/882201.asp ) ... had we had embedded reporting during WWII ... we would have probably lost the war ...

Bush's need to start the war before losing more space with the world's objection to immediate action ... accelerated our own actions ... the interpretation of a tyrant's country oversaw the fact that a tyrant digs deeply into the minds of their people ... thru fear and evil organization ...

The Vietnam war was lost by civilians calling the orders ... the military has made clear the need to avoid those mistakes ... it is a post-Vietnam approach and position ...

In the "cornered" rush in which President Bush sent us to war there has been a miscalculation of the reality of going into this war ... Rumsfeld's own view of our present war ... one that takes precedence on the Gulf War of '91 ... has created a civilian/military crisis already ... there was no need for it ... (go to http://www.pbs.org/newshour/newshour_index.html ... and click on Sunday March 30th ... War Plans ... if you have speakers and Real Audio)

Today ... Peter Arnett has stopped reporting for NBC ... MSNBC ... and for the National Geographic Explorer ... this because he gave an interview to the Iraqui television ...

Fox's Geraldo Rivera kicked out of Iraq by the military ... for revealing information which was critical for the safety of our troops ...

Iraq is betting on an extension of the war ... one that can solidify opposition in the rest of the world and a swift in public opinion in the US ... but most importantly seeking arab help ... http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/syria_03-31-03.html ...

Had we been patient ... got our allies to back us ... and to do this we needed to have behind curtains meetings with them ... get to an agreement ... before we defiantly want them to follow us ... "because we are a military power" ...

Most things done in terms of Iraq ... by President Bush ... ARE NOT IN THE US's BEST INTEREST IMHO ... it is far from criticizing merely for criticizing ... no one doubts our power ... it is how wisely we use it ...

There is almost a no way back with embedded reporting ... we grew accostumed to it in the past two weeks ...

Without the embedded reporting ... what will the networks focus on? ... the daily briefing on the war ... and ... I would imagine analysis ... world views ... other networks images ... if there are any ... HERE IS WHERE THE SHIFT IN PUBLIC OPINION MOST LIKELY WILL START ...

What a mess ...

Bring our troops back home to their families ... safe ...

[sobeton]

"I report the truth of what is happening in Baghdad and will not apologize for it "-Peter Arnett, sacked by American TV network NBC after he told Iraqi television the U.S, war plan against Saddam Hussein had failed.

At some point we will wake up, and figure out what the rest of the world already has.

President Bush Bring Our Troops Home!

[laliux]

Originally posted by obby

So you are comparing Americans to Nazi's? NICE!!!!!!

I am not out to change anyone's mind. You have to want to understand what's going on. So as long as you refuse to acknowledge the threat that terrorism poses to America, our economy and the WORLD, there will be no convincing you. I think your dead wrong in the way that you see this war. Wherever terrorism rears it's ugly head we (AMERICA) will have to go out and eliminate that threat. Right now it's Iraq and who knows what the future holds (you already named the other threats). Each is a unique circumstance that may require different methods to resolve.

Terrorism (repeat this word because this is what it's ALL about).

If the liberation of the Iraqi people come as a result of our determination to deal with terrorism before terrorism deals with us. Then good for the Iraqi's.

To help put things into perspective, ask yourself. Where you this passionate during Somali, Kosovo, Haiti, The 98 bombing of Iraq and Gulf War 1? If not, what has changed?

For me it's very simple, terrorism.....9/11

Fool me once...... shame on you. Fool me twice......... shame on me.

NEVER AGAIN

You wrote:

"The reason I love this country is because i'm able to debate people like you. That is a freedom I don't think I could live with out".

The Iraqi's will soon have the same Freedom my friend. Thanks to our Troops and our President.

dude, don't let Bush fool you. This war is not about "liberating" anybody, fighting terrorism or bringing democracy to that country. This war is ONLY about money.

[obby]

whoa! talk about twisted logic???

lets take this one, point by point,,,,um kay???

1- where are WMD's: EXACTLY!!! I COULD NOT HAVE SAID IT BETTER MYSELF. we know he has them (according to the UN inspectors reports back in the early 90's. So,,where the hell are they??? Iraq says they destroyed all of them. If so, PROVE IT! They have not,,,,,,

2- 9/11 terrorist were not from Iraq!: True, 14 of these 9/11 terrorist were from Saudi Arabia. That is extremely disturbing, but again, Saudi Arabia is not hiding WMD's. There is intel that indicates Mohamed Atta met w/ high ranking Iraqi officials prior to 9/11. Al-Qaida terrorist have been linked to another terrorist group in northern Iraq w/ strong links to the Saddam regime. That, combined w/ the terrorist training camps including one w/ a large passenger jet used to train terrorist to hijack airplanes, all located in Iraq w/ satellite pictures to prove it. As for the other nations with links to terrorism, like I've said before, 1 at a time. Each does not need to be resolved w/ WAR. Each problem is unique and will require unique methods/tactics to be resolved. Will it be easy, of course not. If it would have been easy, the Clinton admin would have addressed it.

3- Why we have not abused pwr and refuse to allow others to gain the same power?: HUH? spreading democracy is to our favor. We do not conquer, get that out of your head. America has no problems w/ other democracies. It does, however, have a problem w/ dictators, especially those who have WMD's. WAKE UP! We will always be the big kid on the block, like it or not. The only thing than can challenge that is a united Europe, and you can forget about that! Those people have been around & fighting each other forever. They have never been able to clean up their own backyards and have historically needed America to help tilt the scale in defeating oppression(example: USSR,NAZI's,Yugoslavia-Milosevic)

4- Is it alright for us to have WMD's and no one else?: Silly Rabbit, trix are for kidz! of course others can have WMD's. So long as they prove, as America has, that they are civilized and will use them as a deterrent. That is the sole reason America has it's WMD's. America does not hide the fact that it does have WMD's, Iraq does and that's the problem! Combine that w/ the 12,000 Iraqi's in the north who Saddam gassed and guess what?? You've got a massive threat on your hands. Which reminds me, if he "does not" have the WMD's you so desperately require hard proof of, how were all these Iraqi's killed? OSMOSIS???

In closing, I'd hate to be the one to have to remind you of this but here goes nothing. There has been a secret war waged against America for some time. Why it took 9/11 for us to WAKE UP, baffles me. The World Trade Center was bombed in 1993, 2 African embassy's and the U.S.S. Cole in Yemen, both in the late 90's, to name a few. Yet for some, they prefer to blame America first and are against America doing all it can do defend itself. America did not jump into war, it tried to resolve the Iraq issue diplomatically for well over 1 year (not including the 12 yrs Saddam has been toying w/ the U.N.). War is always the last option, but should never be excluded as an option for the sole reason that PEACE has always and will always be governed by the use/threat of force. Terrorism is a new kind of war that will require "out of the box" thinking/tactics/logic. We cannot take on terrorism using conventional tactics. If so, we fail! No one said this war on terror would be easy, on the contrary, it is and will be the most difficult problem the world has faced. I know I have not changed your mind, but maybe you now better understand where it is I'm coming from. We can nit pick and try to micro manage this war on terror from our comfy lazyboy chairs and air-conditioned homes, but at the end of the day, it's the soldier who has always and will always be the primary factor which allows us to live free and be the "arm chair generals". It's not our job to make foreign and domestic policy, but our elected leaders job. Bush won a controversial election in 2000. It was a close race and he won, regardless the spin and conspiracy theories spewed by bitter democrats who get kooky whenever they are out of power. Between NYC AND L.A. there was an entire country which voted for Bush. In 2002, 2/3 of the congressional seats up for grabs where lost by Democrats to Republicans. Like it or not, America is shifting to the right. We must have faith in our elected leaders to protect us and do what's best for America, FIRST!!!!

[obby]

Among a trove of evidence found inside Ansar compounds were passports and identity papers of Ansar activists indicating that up to 150 of them were foreigners, including Yemenis, Turks, Palestinians, Pakistanis, Algerians and Iranians.

Coalition forces also found a phone book containing numbers of alleged Islamic activists based in the United States and Europe as well as the number of a Kuwaiti cleric and a letter from Yemen's minister of religion. The names and numbers were not released.

"What we've discovered in Biyare is a very sophisticated operation," said Barham Salih, prime minister of the Kurdish regional government.

Seized computer disks contained evidence showing meetings between Ansar and al-Qaida activists, according to Mahdi Saeed Ali, a military commander.

It was unclear how strong Ansar remains.

Officials from the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, one of two parties that share control of an autonomous Kurdish enclave in northern Iraq, say they killed 250 Ansar members during two days of intense fighting and aerial bombardments.

ENTIRE ARTICLE: http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20030331_1922.html

[obby]

I certainly can see where you question this war as being the only

solution but must add that there were no other solutions put on the table that made any sense at all. Giving inspectors more time was so generic it was laughable, the inspectors had 12 years and had done nothing to correct this situation. To give more time was only providing Saddam with what he needed to complete his goal of having nuclear weapons in addition to the chemicals he already has in his arsenal.

This man had to be stopped before he became as big a threat as he would like to be. Unfortunately, the countries that were against this endeavor provided no reasonable alternative ( in addition to having dubious motives) Also, someone at some time had to actually back the consequences threatened in resolution after resolution, year after year.. this man thought he was home

free, he was invincible because his trading partners would always save him from those consequences.. well, resolution 1441 was his final resolution and he is now paying the consequence of ignoring it.. it is truly sad that his super ego wouldn't allow his people to avoid this action because in the end the result will be the same, his end as a dictator.

Actually, Gary Hart is about the last person I would ask for a fair

appraisal of anything if I wanted an answer that meant something but I honestly don't believe we are there to stop this dictator abusing his people, I think it is all about what he could and probably would do to us either directly or by supplying other unsavory characters with the means to inflict great pain and suffering.. aiding the people of Iraq is a nice by-product for political and humanitarian reasons.. Our history absolutely shows us to be liberators not invaders so I trust our motives in that respect..

As far as the Pope condemning this war, that is his job, the Pope always condemns every war as all good religious leaders should. Like you, I hope that we can get this job done with minimal loss of innocent life (and that includes our soldiers as well as the regular conscripts in the Iraqi forces) I also hope this will give pause to others who would wish to harm us and finally I wish peace and prosperity for the Iraqi people, they certainly

deserve a break after being in this mans clutches for so long..

[obby]

I would dearly love to respect the opinions of those anitwar folks who's opinions should have two sides to them, a reason for the approval/disapproval and an alternative solution.. to date, I have not heard any noteworthy reasons or alternatives. The rote response from all those I listed seems to be..

"give the inspectors more time"

for what reason might I ask!!! They have inspected without results for the past 12 years, Saddam has ignored resolution after resolution for the past 12 years and he continues to do his dirty work unrestrained.

If September 11th taught us anything, I certainly hope it taught us to be very wary of despots with big smiles and hidden caches of WMD. What do you suggest we had done instead of going to war with this dictator??? and please don't say "give the inspectors more time" unless you define how much time and why and what you would expect to accomplish in that time and how..when the marchers etal come up with these reasons and alternatives they will have my full attention and respect.. maybe not my agreement but at least respect for their opinion because at that point they would actually have one..

I do think it is un-American to rabidly criticize your elected officials on the world stage in war time.. unless of course you have provided some workable solution and been ignored.. it is easy to criticize and flaunt your partial opinions but organizing huge marches with the backing of known anti-American groups goes beyond the pale to me.. what is their opinion??

"no war".. what else?? what do they suggest as a solution??

Think about it. By the way, I didn't ridicule everyone with an opposing view, I reserved my critique for some groups, for the reasons I named, I have many friends who oppose this war but admit they don't have a realistic alternative and certainly don't join marches organized by communists. My own cousin is probably the most anti war person I know and defies reason on the subject, she just babbles endlessly about how the money could be put to better use..

You know as well as I do that you can't take a popular vote for every issue that comes up, that is why we elect people to represent us and make these decisions. Sometimes the Democrats are happy because their guy is in making the decisions and sometimes (as now) the republicans get to decide..we all have to try to back those in at any given time.. I can think of numerous times I was miserable when Clinton was in, avoiding decisions that should have been made to keep scrutiny from himself, however, I just resolved to work hard to have a new group represent me in the next election rather than cause a disturbance about the administration that had been elected by the majority.. however slim that majority might be.. That is where you should have your say, at the polls. We have been sharing information with all the countries you named and to some degree they have been co-operating with the war on terrorism.. of course it behooves them to do so, terrorism is an international industry and terrorists don't have any love for any of those nations either. The issue comes in when they pick and choose which terrorists they will turn in and which ones they will support aka those with oil contracts.. anyway,

God bless America and our Troops..

Take care.

[sobeton]

"They are not prisoners to their ignorance; but rather slaves to the trappings of democracy, which are often veiled as freedom. " – Sobeton

[obby]

"trappings of democracy" ????

Sounds like an oxymoron to me???

Elaborate a liitle more if you can.

[sobeton]

not really an oxymoron, but then again people have issues defining democracy. sometimes ambiguity forces one to reflect on the same. think about the "sausage factor " previously mentioned.

[vipnerd]

Originally posted by obby

"give the inspectors more time"

for what reason might I ask!!! They have inspected without results for the past 12 years, Saddam has ignored resolution after resolution for the past 12 years and he continues to do his dirty work unrestrained.

I will give you the simple answer ... so we have worldwide support ... so our allies are still our allies ... allies that trust us ... and support our concept of democracy ...

So when we tell the Russians ... the Chinese ... the North Koreans ... the Pakistani ... that we need to reduce our nuclear arsenal ... that humanity's future depends on that ... THEY TRUST US ...

So the evolution of democracy in the Middle East is seen in the Arab world as a valid political alternative ... imposing it just creates recentment ... and radicalization ... as in Jordan ...

This debate should NEVER include the two political parties ... as you so often bring up ... this is the nation's best interest ... it goes beyond political parties ... it deals with the philosophy and principles rooted in our own democratic principles ...

It was the chance to give the United Nations its role ... a UN that was created post WWII ... that efficiently served during the Cold War days to avoid nuclear confrontation ...

All your points are valid and I support them ... going ahead alone ... was the mistake ... we needed the rest of the world's support to legalize our actions ... the world lives a much more civilized time than in the past ...

We are seen as the domineering ... in Western Europe ... the Arab World ... and most of Asia ... Africa ... and Latin America ...

America doesn't live alone in this world ... instead of being seen as the leader ... as we had in the past decades ... we are seen as the mighty powerful that doesn't give a s**t on the rest ...

And I will oppose this war in this context because the consequences of our unilateral actions will cost us much more than losing allies ... or 75 billion $$ ... it will affect your right to move around this world freely ... and your sons ... and your grandsons ...

Open your eyes and realize that ... in a civilized world of instant communications like the one we live ... being the big boy no longer means what it used to ... there are nuclear countries everywhere ... and we need them to trust us ...

[vipnerd]

Originally posted by obby

Our history absolutely shows us to be liberators not invaders so I trust our motives in that respect..

As far as the Pope condemning this war, that is his job, the Pope always condemns every war as all good religious leaders should. Like you, I hope that we can get this job done with minimal loss of innocent life (and that includes our soldiers as well as the regular conscripts in the Iraqi forces) I also hope this will give pause to others who would wish to harm us and finally I wish peace and prosperity for the Iraqi people, they certainly

deserve a break after being in this mans clutches for so long..

About our motives ... is how the world sees them ...

About the Pope and democracy ... take a look at this report ... this is how an Iraqui neighbor sees this war ... an ally of the US ... (try to see the video ... it is important) ... http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/jan-june03/jordan_03-31.html

Had we waited ... an gone in with our allies ... we had much greater possibilities that at least some Arab countries would have supported us ... there is a saying ... "divide them and you will beat them" ... just some food for thought ...

[obby]

VIPNERD

Good points and I must say, the most well thought one's thus far. kudos!

Unfortunately, the points made, although noble, are far from realistic. I don't even know where to start w/ this one but

I'll give it shot. here goes:

The pipe dream of having everyone, everywhere love us, is just that, a pipe dream! America is the lone super power left in the world. Not by winning some lottery or some good luck, but rather by struggle and determination fueled by the desire and pursuit of freedom. America has earned everything it has. Never, Ever, forget that! The U.N. was created to help stop the U.S.S.R. from taking over Europe. Since then, the U.N. has been a complete and utter failure. Just like our prez. said, it has sadly become nothing more than a debating society w/ a horrendous record, as far as achievements & accomplishments are concerned(Rowanda's ethnic cleansing, Somalia, etc..). Just like the League of Nations. Both rendered insignificant, although there is still hope for the U.N.. Since the cold war, most European countries have become weaker, not stronger. In contrast, America has continued to become even stronger. If you think Europeans are not resentful of that, think again! The weaker those nations became, the stronger their resolve for the U.N. became. Why? Simple, because alone, each of those European nations felt powerless. Especially those who at one time were the big boys on the block (France/Germany). If you don't think those countries felt threatened by the power America had aquired via Freedom and Capitalism, then there's no convincing you. Everyone hates the "BIG, rich kid on the block". It's human nature to envy and covet. This clearly explains the drastic contrast in ideology between the Americans and Europeans. Europeans feel the U.N. is the lone body through which all decisions should be made and Americans feel the U.N., although in concept may be good, in reality, is not essential when dealing w/ America's national security. Yet still, America gave the U.N. a chance to shine. It failed! The U.N. only restricts Americas freedom and that is something most Americans feel uncomfortable with. Americans feel they have earned everything they currently enjoy and I just so happen to be one of those people. Nothing America has today is due to help from Europe and most Americans know that! I hope you do too! On the contrary, most of Europe would either be speaking Russian or German if not for America and most Americans know that! I hope you do to!

So, when analyzing this situation, understand where and why Europeans and American think so differently. America has learned not only from it's own mistakes in the past, but by the mistakes made by other nations throughout history. No one claims this war on terror will be easy but make no mistake, it's the right thing to do! The U.N. was given ample opportunity to prove it's worth and failed. Specifically, by the efforts made by France in vetoing resolutions before even Iraq did,,,,,THAT IS AMAZING! That is where I point the blame. France! Call me crazy???? America tried the diplomatic route, to no avail. After 12 yrs of U.N. impotence, the U.S.A. along w/ 50 other countries, including eastern Europe took a stand. How anyone can have faith in an organization like the U.N. which not only let Saddam get away w/ deceiving the world for 12 yrs, but most recently by appointing Iraq to head the weapons inspections committee and Libya to head the human rights committee, is beyond illogical & to be honest, extremely insulting to my intelligence??? If that does not offend you, then nothing will! As far as the unilateral actions "issue", I beg to differ. 50 countries is not unilateral. Again, you've lost focus. The problem @ the U.N. was not America, but France! The Russians have never really been our "close buddies", China,,well,,you can forget about them. Germany, definately is puzzling as is France, although it's apparent there has always been a problem w/ France, historically speaking, of course. What some fail to realize is that America needs to do what's best for America, FIRST! To Americans, America comes first, not Europe, or Asia or Africa, but America! America has always stood up for others around the world and will continue to do so. LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT BABY!!! People are not literally dying to make it to France, or Russia or Germany or China. People are literally dying in their effort to make it to America. Whether it's as a stow-away on a ship or hiding in the landing gear compartment of airplanes only to fall 30,000 feet to their death or drowning in the Atlantic, people are dying to make it to America in the hope of being able to live a better life. People are not stuffing themselves into a camels ass to get to Iraq or Afghanistan! GET IT??? GOT IT?? GOOD!!!

Do I really need to go on???? I can if you want me to, but c'mon man! give a niggah a break! lol

in closing, there is no hostility from me on this. I realize I might come across as arrogant or pushy, but trust me when I tell you it's not my intention, it's just the way I write. So, if I offend you or anyone, i sincerely apologize. Not for the content of my post, but rather for the tone in which I present it.

I'd like to end this w/ a few quotes from President Johh F. Kennedy ::::

"In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shrink from this responsibility--I welcome it."

"I am certain that after the dust of centuries has passed over our cities, we too will be remembered not for victories or defeats in battle or in politics, but for our contribution to the human spirit"

"While we shall negotiate freely, we shall not negotiate freedom."

"We should not let our fears hold us back from pursuing our hopes"

[georgeacasta2]

Post war Iraq