shroomy Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 btw the previous post wasnt directed at anyone in CP in particular, just all the anti-war people in general. I have no respect for people who form opinions from what they hear w/o really knowing any of the facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pod Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 Originally posted by laliux so are we the World Police?All this shit is about money. Period! In a way it is about money, no doubt about it. As for being the World Police, who else is going to do it? The UN? The UN is bloody useless! The European Union? Yeah right, they can't even get their constitution sorted. The French? Cheese eatin' surrender monkeys! (simpsons reference)I'm not saying we should go around and impose morality, but at the same time, some tinpot dictators just gotta go! Did you see the look on the Iraqi citizens' faces when we pulled into downtown Baghdad? They loved us! They were so glad to see us getting rid of that asshole that systematically killed millions of their friends and relatives for over 20 years. Hell, George Bush and Tony Blair are more popular over there than they are here!The reason why we went at this pretty much alone this time is because Europe had a lot of vested interest in Iraq before the war. The French supplied arms to Iraq...F1 Fighters, Roland (not DJ Roland!) SAM batteries, and Exocet missiles. German contractors did a lot of rebuilding after Gulf War 1, and had plans to start supplying contractors to build nuclear power plants...so don't go around thinking that Europe is a bunch of peace-loving neo-hippie lets-all-get-stoned and not-shower-for-a-week...they had their own self-interests at heart when they protested the war. Protests didn't make one difference though. Know why? Cause we got the bombs. Two words, precision fucking weapons! Germany, France, Belgium, Spain, Austria, they can have all the protests they want, they can have a bloody little peace cakewalk right down the Champs Elysses but it ain't gonna make a bit of difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laliux Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 Originally posted by shroomy A few questions to see if anyone here actually knows anything about the big picture.....Why did Osama bin Laden form Al-Qaeda and what was its main target?What event happened that he started targeting the US? BTW this is also the main cause of anger toward the US in the arab world. (hint it is not the Palestine Israel issue..)What are the last 3 wars Iraq fought and why?and if you have to look these up, SHUT THE FUCK UP!!! when you are talking about peoples lives, don't just sprout idealisic slogans. There are many people who oppose the war in Iraq that I totally respect, because they can justify their stance (I just dont agree.) If you can't justify yours, Im going to eat your ass alive in any debate. If you don't know... thats cool there are lots of horible things going on in the world that I don't have a clue about, I just don't make any blanket statements about them. I would debate with you buddy but I don't like to do it on a message board. I also read a lot so I don't talk just for talking, plus a great part of my existence I was able to view everything from outside the States and you can see the whole picture better from outside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mimid Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 Nice pic... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vipnerd Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 There are a few reflexions which hum in my head ... and I'll try to simplify them ... We try to expand democracy thru out the world ... capitalism is a given ...During the Cold War it was capitalism what we pushed ... not necessarily democracy ... back then dictators ... and specially military dictators were supported because it was a way to keep capitalism working in those countries ... and avoid the expansion of socialism/communism ...Democracy involves the freedom to elect by the majority ...In the civilized world we live ... all countries have the right to express their position ... the democratic forum was and should have been the UN ...Many countries had an opposition to the war because they are democracies ... their leaders have to hear public opinion ... and even if it is not in the nations immediate best interest ... they have to settle down with it ... This happens because in every democracy in the world there are many political parties ... convergence and negotiation is the only realistic way for governments to get political support ...IT IS SO COMPLEX TO UNDERSTAND IN A BI-PARTISAN POLITICAL ENVIRONMENT LIKE THE ONE WE LIVE HERE, NEVERTHELESS IT IS THE WAY EVERY DEMOCRACY IN THE REST OF THE WORLD WORKS, IT IS CALLED PLURALISM OF POLITICAL PARTIES ... It is far more complex to understand each country's political reality ... the easiest example is Britain and Tony Blair's difficulty to gain support for the war ... remember ... that is the reason why the US went to the UN for the resolution ...BTW ... Britain is not part of the EU ... it is part of NATO ... hence the need to keep supporting the US ... we are their only close ally ... During the Cold War ... we did everything to keep capitalism alive ... we still do ... and it is a given in most of the world ... with only a handful of exceptions ...As some of us proposed ... especially at the beginning of this war ... lets sabotage French products ... we even had lists of products ... it is our right ...Have we thought of the views citizens in other nations have of our unilateral use of force? ... we can say we don't give a s**t ... but ... Have we thought that citizens of other nations have the right to sabotage products made in the USA? ... or at least being US brands? ... The balance of trade (exports minus imports) has a deficit ... we import more than we export ...Still ... exports are a huge part of our economy ... in terms of jobs .. I never doubted about our militarily strength or superiority ... I just would like to see our leaders with the capacity to converge other nations to our goals ... not distance ourselves ... The result of this war was a given ... the trust in our actions ... specially being the world power has generated distrust and animosity in many nations across the globe ... our own "strong" position was miscalculated and didn't leave much space for leaders in the rest of the world to turn public opinion in their favor ... and hence support us ...Our strength comes from our political system and from our economy ... without trade ... and this is why we push for free trade zones ... any economy shrinks considerably ... there are far less jobs ... hence less money for: military ... retirement ... health ... education ...Lets take this mistake in foreign policy as an example of what we shouldn't do ... we posses all the tools to find a convergence ... defiance is disrespect and generates distrust ... to America ... to their leaders ... and unfortunately to their people ...And when I say mistake ... I refer to not getting the kind of international coallition Bush father had during the Gulf War ...I forecast a long period of distrust to our actions ... to our intentions ... something we didn't need ... Now comes the most difficult part ... something we won't be able to do with CNN, ABC or FOX ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shroomy Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 Originally posted by laliux I you can see the whole picture better from outside. No you can't you just see the picture from a different angle.And laliux, we need to have this discussion in a bar, and when ever someone raises their voice, they have to buy us both a shot. And that is how disagreements all over the world should be settled!!!VIP....Many good points, but a few to add.and to answer the question I asked and noone aswered, Osama bin Laden was a piss ant trying to overthrow the Saudi Government. He knew that they were not "true" muslims like he was. It wasn't until after the gulf war when we had to station our troops in Saudi to protect them from Iraq that he gained wide support and turned his attentions to us. The reason? Infidels in the holy land!!! it was an afront to arabs everywhere and the main cause for arab distrust and resentment (and the fact that they couldn't protect themselves)The other main cause of resentment is the success of capitalisim itself. Now kids in Afganistan see a half dressed Britney selling Pepsi. And a topless Cristina on posters and albums. etc.. The elders know that they can not compete for a childs attention when they see that. And when what they see goes against their beliefs, it makes the kids question them and threatens their way of life. (and rightfully so)If their people had the fredom we had here, they would lose power, control and followers. They honestly see us as evil.As for the distrust, some of it is deserved, and much of it is out of ignorance. For example, every native I spoke to in Somalia, was certain that we were there to take over the country and convert them to christans. Why because the warlords told them and they are their only source of information. Almost none can read or had any other view of the situation. And tell them any conspiracy theory and they will believe it. They are just totally uneducated, and the uneducated are the easiest to control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vipnerd Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 I agree with you Shroomy ... plus the fact of you having been in some of the countries where the US had no alternative but to take action gives you a direct experience ...The countries that worry me the most are western and ex-socialist countries ... where the access to alternative media and their knowledge of the outerworld is similar to ours ... examples Western and Eastern Europe, China, Rusia, Indonesia, Mexico, Brazil, India, Pakistan, Arab countries ...It is obvious that manipulation of public opinion is easier in third world countries ... still ... those media are a reflexion of the positions of political parties when it comes to politics ... In Africa ... until only forty years ago ... they were mostly colonies from Western European countries ... hence their distrust ... we had gone thru WWII and all the atrocities to humankind ... and still Africa was mostly colonized ... BTW part of maintaining a colony under control was denying education ... hence the term "intelligentsia" to describe the educated thinkers expressing their voices for taking action and achieving not freedom ... but independence ... The main point of distrust in the Arab world came precisely after the Gulf War ... when the Western countries, including the US ... forgot to address a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict ...There are voices ... like Rumsfeld's comments on Syria ... (I believe they are called "neo-conservatives") ... who want to see the US take on Syria ... Lebanon ... even Iran ... this from CNN last nite ... The world is waiting to see how the transfer of power ... in US's hands right now ... is shifted to a UN led commission ... this will demonstrate to them the intentionality of the military actions ... in the meantime ... Germany, Russia and France are talking ...It scares me that less than a week ago ... our top officials were in discrepancy in terms of how we would manage post-war Iraq ... we went into Iraq and we ... the nation ... still had no clear view of what would be done ... because there was a power struggle still between our leaders ... this proves the unnecessary rush to go in on March 19th ...Believe me ... we have already rearranged world order with this war by the unilateral character of it ... could it be in our best interest in the long run? ... I doubt it ... but obviously I could be wrong ...www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/11/sprj.irq.stpetersburg/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shroomy Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 I hope everyone realizes that I am the most anti-war person you could meet. It is almost never the correct answer.But sometimes it is the only answer.We were unfortunately put in the situation where we had to pick the least bad answer.Its like chess where you have to sacrifice your rook to save your queen. You really don't want to do it, just the alternative is worse.On a side note, you have no idea what it does to a 18 or 19yr old to know he ended someone's or several someone's life. And while every soldier is happy he did a good job, he hates (AND I MEAN HATES) that he was forced to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funketeer Posted April 11 Author Report Share Posted April 11 There comes a time when we heed a certain callWhen the world must come together as oneThere are people dyingAnd it's time to lend a hand to lifeThe greatest gift of allWe can't go on pretending day by dayThat someone, somewhere will soon make a changeWe are all a part of God's great big familyAnd the truth, you know,Love is all we needWe are the world, we are the childrenWe are the ones who make a brighter daySo let's start givingThere's a choice we're makingWe're saving our own livesIt's true we'll make a better dayJust you and meSend them your heart so they'll know that someone caresAnd their lives will be stronger and freeAs God has shown us by turning stones to breadSo we all must lend a helping handWhen you're down and out, there seems no hope at allBut if you just believe there's no way we can fallLet us realize that a change can only comeWhen we stand together as one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vipnerd Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 Originally posted by shroomy On a side note, you have no idea what it does to a 18 or 19yr old to know he ended someone's or several someone's life. And while every soldier is happy he did a good job, he hates (AND I MEAN HATES) that he was forced to do it. Bump Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmatas2277 Posted April 11 Report Share Posted April 11 Originally posted by shroomy On a side note, you have no idea what it does to a 18 or 19yr old to know he ended someone's or several someone's life. And while every soldier is happy he did a good job, he hates (AND I MEAN HATES) that he was forced to do it. ...u wanna know something scary? my old man loved it!! i guess that explains why i never snuck out of my house late at night....two words: Booby Traps:shake: Me- Dad!!! Please!!! Let me out of this Bamboo Cage!! (in crying/whimpering voice)Dad- SHUT UR MOUTH!!! U DIRTY V.C.!!! DONT MAKE ME USE THE BAMBOO SHOOTS AGAIN!!!Me- OMG!!! NOT AGAIN!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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