This is why i am STILL against the war

[georgym]

I just find it rude and obnoxious to hear many pro-war believers act so damn immature by always saying "I told you so, bla blah"

With wars, there is no winner or loser. If any of you had been thru World War 2 or Vietnam, i don't think anyone would want to relive a war.

After hearing the horror stories from my grandparents, I try to find any possible way to avoid war.

These are just my beliefs, and i understand war is necessary in only the most extreme cases.

But i will ask you all this-- If we went to war against Iraq due to: A) corrupt dictator on our hitlist, homeland atrocities, C) supposed weapons of mass destruction, how come we aren't going to war with Libya, North Korea, Iran, Angola, Mozambique, Algeria, etc...

They all can be classified in at least 1 of the above 3 allegations.

[igloo]

Originally posted by gmccookny

I just find it rude and obnoxious to hear many pro-war believers act so damn immature by always saying "I told you so, bla blah"

With wars, there is no winner or loser. If any of you had been thru World War 2 or Vietnam, i don't think anyone would want to relive a war.

After hearing the horror stories from my grandparents, I try to find any possible way to avoid war.

These are just my beliefs, and i understand war is necessary in only the most extreme cases.

But i will ask you all this-- If we went to war against Iraq due to: A) corrupt dictator on our hitlist, homeland atrocities, C) supposed weapons of mass destruction, how come we aren't going to war with Libya, North Korea, Iran, Angola, Mozambique, Algeria, etc...

They all can be classified in at least 1 of the above 3 allegations.

:bored: :bored:

[eccentricmofo]

Originally posted by gmccookny

I just find it rude and obnoxious to hear many pro-war believers act so damn immature by always saying "I told you so, bla blah"

With wars, there is no winner or loser. .

Hey amigo, I agree with you that indeed there are no real winners and losers in war..

Ideally speaking war is horrible and destructive, across the board to whomever is involved.

But, to explain why I support this war...(not saying I support everything bush says and does, but generally speaking)...

Saddam was evil (not just in our eyes..that part is very important) according to many countries and even charitable organizations..etc.

And the USA, decided to step up, and kill the bad guy, to be blunt.

Now every move, especially on a global scale can be judged and justified in 500 different ways, from politically to morally to financially etc...there are millions of views and arguements. That both can be for and against the war.

I feel personally (my opinion), the moral angle view is more important then any other....no comparison.

Life, death, and fairness of treating human beings, should always outway profit and/or policy...thats just my opinion.

Well looking into this whole thing myself, I can say I made an educated decision for my position.

As far as the other countries you mentioned, if they are on a so called.."bad guy hit list" it probably will be taken care of in due time, granted we have a sophisticated military of great power, still to invade and/or liberate that many countries all at once is very difficult of a move..

Lastly to enlighten you on something interestly funny.

Before this mess with Iraq, I mean about 6 months ago, I relatively was a modest patriot you can say...I love my country, sorta like soso my government...lol...etc.

But, as of 3 months ago (to make the point before Iraq situation) I have made the decision to be part of the military...

Taking the test finally this monday to see where exactly I would like to be career wise..etc.

With this decision I have lost friends and gain friends, it has been very wicked of a trip...but the one thing I realized..and I hope you do with me saying this..

Our country was built and originally founded by bad ass idealists... think about....people that pretty much never really gave a fuc of what the world says and did everything by their "gut feeling", granted it has had its bad turnouts here and there but generally speaking you have to agree...we have done pretty well.

No one likes war. But Ill tell you this, I rather goto war with a country, instead of just sitting back watching their brutality on their own people on CNN...and saying...damn shame.

you know..

Phew...ok..(deep breath)...sorry for rambling...once again..I think I shall switch to decaf coffee for a few hours to simma down..lol..

[ghhhhhost]

Originally posted by gmccookny

I just find it rude and obnoxious to hear many pro-war believers act so damn immature by always saying "I told you so, bla blah"

With wars, there is no winner or loser. If any of you had been thru World War 2 or Vietnam, i don't think anyone would want to relive a war.

After hearing the horror stories from my grandparents, I try to find any possible way to avoid war.

These are just my beliefs, and i understand war is necessary in only the most extreme cases.

But i will ask you all this-- If we went to war against Iraq due to: A) corrupt dictator on our hitlist, homeland atrocities, C) supposed weapons of mass destruction, how come we aren't going to war with Libya, North Korea, Iran, Angola, Mozambique, Algeria, etc...

They all can be classified in at least 1 of the above 3 allegations.

theyre not going into African nations to solve the problems becuse theyre BLACK...the racist southern good ole boys in government dont care if them "BLACK FOLK" off each other...

and us going into Iraq is like choosing the lesser of all evils...its easiest battle..and its a quick fix to our struggling economy..and itll relieve some of the paranoia of the American population..

BULLSHIT

[igloo]

Originally posted by ghhhhhost

theyre not going into African nations to solve the problems becuse theyre BLACK...the racist southern good ole boys in government dont care if them "BLACK FOLK" off each other...

and us going into Iraq is like choosing the lesser of all evils...its easiest battle..and its a quick fix to our struggling economy..and itll relieve some of the paranoia of the American population..

BULLSHIT

:laugh:

Good one!....really got a good laugh with this response

[cintron]

Originally posted by gmccookny

With wars, there is no winner or loser.

But i will ask you all this-- If we went to war against Iraq due to: A) corrupt dictator on our hitlist, homeland atrocities, C) supposed weapons of mass destruction, how come we aren't going to war with Libya, North Korea, Iran, Angola, Mozambique, Algeria, etc...

bullshit. In war there is often a winner and a loser unless both sides pussy out and agree to a truce. (a'la Korean War).

if you choose to be idealistic about war's outcomes, fine. more power to you... but there is definitely a winner and a loser.

War is about one thing. Land. It's about who controls the most terrain in the environment. That can apply to a war on drugs, cyber-warfare or good ol' fashion bullets and soil.

It's about who controls the most vital terrain at the end of the war, regardless of whether or not it's occupied. Plain and simple, you don't need a debate or a forum of scholars to create an outlandish definition. War is about killing and posession.

As to your second statement:

Pick and choose carefully the battles that you wish to fight. Saddam was the only nation out of all of them that was directly violating the entire contents of the surrender treaty that HE signed during the first gulf war. In that respect, the first gulf war was never truly concluded. It was a "ceasefire agreement", not an end-of-war contract. Ceasefire agreements clearly spell out the terms needed to comply, and specify that noncompliance can result in extreme consequences.

We gave that asshole years to comply. He didn't. So we gave him even MORE time by allowing him to readmit inspectors after HE kicked them out. We didn't HAVE to give that dickhead a second chance, but we did. This isn't baseball, but we still gave him three strikes.

Strike One: He expelled UN inspectors and prevented them from doing their jobs.

Strike Two: He Continued to hamper UN inspector access once he allowed their readmittance.

Strike Three: He submitted a comprehensive list of documentation on weaponry to the United Nations, that was entirely inaccurate and false. ["whoops, you found 24 missiles? guess we missed those..."]

Unlike a neighbor that's playing their stereo too loud, you DON"T fuck around when someone is being shady with their weaponry, especially when they're shady about weapons that could go off in an NYC subway tomorrow and kill thousands, possibly one of you.

It doesn't take a miracle to get a cannister of sarin in a subway. Just look at the tokyo attacks.

" A chemical weapon attack against Tokyo subway passengers on 20 March 1995 killed 12 persons and injured approximately 5,500 others"

FIVE THOUSAND, FIVE HUNDRED injured.

TWELVE killed.

over guess how much.

not even a teaspoon's worth of Sarin. Now you do the math.

thousands of religious fanatics who hate the united states.

missing and unaccounted WMD in Iraq.

It only takes a teaspoon's worth of Sarin to kill tens or hundreds.

Are any of you going to really stand there and tell me that we're fools for wanting to scour the ends of the earth to find this stuff?

[shroomy]

eccentricmofo, great post and great luck in the military.

A word of advice, you will get tired of the BS games, but understand that there really is a reason, if people question what they are supposed to do at critical times, people die needlessly. The point is to get it into the minds of people to blindly and imediately follow orders, because it is worse if you dont. BTW this does change as you move up the ranks. But get used to doing stupid things for no apparent reason, or with no explanation.

And for all you WILL bitch and moan, you will look back on the experience with unbelievable fondness for the friends you made that you will be closer to than family.

[shroomy]

Originally posted by gmccookny

If any of you had been thru World War 2 or Vietnam, i don't think anyone would want to relive a war.

And if you had lived through the Holocaust, the ocupation of France, the slaughter of the Russians after a non agression pact etc... you would realize that sometimes it is necessary compared to doing nothing and letting people die and/or be opressed.

Originally posted by gmccookny

After hearing the horror stories from my grandparents, I try to find any possible way to avoid war.

Good!! All posibilities need to be tried before war. And as I did live through Desert Storm I will tell you that it affects you for life. But so does seeing the effects the invasion of Kuwait, and talking to the iraqi's who had family killed for installing a satalite dish, having a relative apply for a visa, or because a woman turned down the sexual advances of someone in the Baath Party.

Originally posted by gmccookny

These are just my beliefs, and i understand war is necessary in only the most extreme cases.

Tell me a case that is more extreem than this one? How much longer than 12 years should we wait?

Originally posted by gmccookny

But i will ask you all this-- If we went to war against Iraq due to: A) corrupt dictator on our hitlist, homeland atrocities, C) supposed weapons of mass destruction, how come we aren't going to war with Libya, North Korea, Iran, Angola, Mozambique, Algeria, etc...

They all can be classified in at least 1 of the above 3 allegations.

Somehow an argument that since we didn't do the correct thing in the past, we shouldn't do the correct thing now doesn't sound very logical to me.

I can see a friend asking you for help and you telling him - "Well, since I didn't help another friend, I can't help you.

btw... we bombed Libya, sanctioned North Korea, supported one side in the Angola fiasco, did go into somalia etc... but bottom line is they didn't threaten the world in the way that Iraq did, and there was little chance of going in and making things any better than they were. There is just too long of a history of conflict between ethnic groups for us to solve.

[eccentricmofo]

Originally posted by shroomy

eccentricmofo, great post and great luck in the military.

A word of advice, you will get tired of the BS games, but understand that there really is a reason, if people question what they are supposed to do at critical times, people die needlessly. The point is to get it into the minds of people to blindly and imediately follow orders, because it is worse if you dont. BTW this does change as you move up the ranks. But get used to doing stupid things for no apparent reason, or with no explanation.

And for all you WILL bitch and moan, you will look back on the experience with unbelievable fondness for the friends you made that you will be closer to than family.

Thankyou for your good luck wish, and I hear you loud and clear. Trust me, modestly speaking, I plan to shake up a hell of alot when it comes to the military (well little to start, more gradual with rank). Ill ellaborate when the test scores come back and back up my ideal career, turning it from a potential into a definate.

Also, cheers to your rebuttle...very thorough...

[siceone]

Originally posted by ghhhhhost

theyre not going into African nations to solve the problems becuse theyre BLACK...the racist southern good ole boys in government dont care if them "BLACK FOLK" off each other...

and us going into Iraq is like choosing the lesser of all evils...its easiest battle..and its a quick fix to our struggling economy..and itll relieve some of the paranoia of the American population..

BULLSHIT

look at history man the US tried it africa it let th UN remember the UN that lovely institution that we should have listened too, remember them. They went in there and tried to depose dictators and such and they FUCKED IT UP because they didn't have the balls to do it right..it's already been done this racist conspiracy crap is BORING and widely untrue.

[nycmuzik]

Originally posted by ghhhhhost

theyre not going into African nations to solve the problems becuse theyre BLACK...the racist southern good ole boys in government dont care if them "BLACK FOLK" off each other...

and us going into Iraq is like choosing the lesser of all evils...its easiest battle..and its a quick fix to our struggling economy..and itll relieve some of the paranoia of the American population..

BULLSHIT

Blame the UN for the problems in Africa...The US would gladly go in there to help the people out but you would need a military force to backup the humanitarian workers....I dont think the warlords in those countries would be glad to see the country getting back up on its feet thus making them powerless....Just take a look at Somalia....

[igloo]

Originally posted by nycmuzik

Blame the UN for the problems in Africa...The US would gladly go in there to help the people out but you would need a military force to backup the humanitarian workers....I dont think the warlords in those countries would be glad to see the country getting back up on its feet thus making them powerless....Just take a look at Somalia....

Don't you love how the liberals conveniently forget about Somalia.......