Where Did the Feisty Americans Go?

[sassa]

Where did the feisty Americans go?

It will be a question historians will debate perhaps for centuries to come.

How did a president remain solidly popular with the American people, even

though:

The economy stagnated during his watch;

He turned a projected federal surplus of $5.7 trillion over the next

into a projected $2 trillion deficit, fueled by huge tax cuts that

enriched the wealthy and failed to stimulate the economy;

He proposed and won more tax cuts, though most economists warned that

they wouldn't likely create many jobs;

His administration trimmed basic domestic civil rights, including the

right to privacy, counsel and habeas corpus;

He openly scorned relations with traditional allies and potential

friends worldwide;

He launched a war against a sovereign nation without establishing why

it was urgent and necessary, and without achieving any of his stated goals

for attacking, except regime change;

The company once headed by his vice president landed a no-bid contract

in Iraq far more lucrative than originally revealed?

There has never been anything like this in American political history.

Despite a record of budget irresponsibility, international discord,

warmongering and even scandal, the Bush veneer is hardly scuffed.

It isn't anything about Bush; it's about us. We've changed, and not for the

better.

It seems only yesterday that the typical American took a delicious pride in

holding the feet of political leaders -- even the ones we admired -- to the

fire. Whether it was Nixon or Carter or Reagan or Clinton, presidents have

had to endure the relentless heat of popular scrutiny. Until now.

Bush exists in a dimension far beyond having to fend off criticism. It's as

if critical evaluation itself has gone into hibernation. Virtually nobody

questions Bush -- not the opposition Democrats, not the bulk of the media,

and by all reckoning, not the public.

There can be only one explanation: Sept. 11. That terrible day in 2001

transformed us in many ways, but the most subtle and insidious change was

how it sapped our national confidence.

The terrorist attacks provoked in us not courage, but fear -- fear of being

victimized again, as we were that day. We've reacted like the rape victim

whose faith in human nature is crushed by anxiety and suspicion, rather

than the one who fights back spiritually, refusing to be degraded by a

degrading act.

Bush told us that we needed to attack Iraq for our security, and we

accepted it. He told us that we needed to compromise certain civil rights

to help catch terrorists, and we accepted it. He told us that our security

required us to detain suspects without charges or access to lawyers, and we

accepted it.

It's as if the American people, shivering with fear, are huddling around

Bush as if he were a shepherd. Do whatever you must, dear shepherd; just

protect us. Consequently:

We won't even question economic policies that have created a weak

dollar, a soft stock market and creeping unemployment.

We won't explore the logic of disarming the newly freed Iraqi people,

while backing a resumption of sales of assault-style weapons at home.

We won't evaluate the ludicrous notion that Haitian asylum seekers

must be imprisoned as a matter of national security, even as migrants from

communist Cuba are allowed to swim ashore and go free.

When I press Bush supporters on his record, they invariably respond with

general references to faith and trust: He has good reasons for what he has

done. Time will prove him right. He's a good man.

That's no America I recognize. Some amount of faith is fine and healthy.

But aren't we Americans supposed to be feisty, indomitable, demanding,

assertive, skeptical?

Sept. 11 rightly made us more cautious and more vigilant. But it also

diminished us. We're less tolerant of dissent; less thoughtful about world

issues; less concerned with principles of justice, fairness and equity; and

-- to the apparent benefit of Bush's poll numbers -- less demanding of our

political leaders.

It made us intellectually passive -- which frightens me much more than a

hijacked airliner

[igloo]

:laugh: :lol3:

[sassa]

laughing at the facts? i figured.

[skince55]

So many holes in your sermon...I dont even know where to start

The economy stagnated during his watch;

He turned a projected federal surplus of $5.7 trillion over the next

into a projected $2 trillion deficit, fueled by huge tax cuts that

enriched the wealthy and failed to stimulate the economy;

Enron...WorldCom....9/11....technology bubble popping. None of those things had to do with our current economy??? Honestly...were any of these things Bush's fault??

Why don't you give the tax cuts a chance to fail before you blame them for the economy?? His most recent cuts have not had time to impact the economy yet.

His administration trimmed basic domestic civil rights, including the right to privacy, counsel and habeas corpus;

Has our nation ever experienced a threat similar to the one we are experiencing today?? Right, thats what I thought. So until you come up with a better solution...please do not comment on this.

He openly scorned relations with traditional allies and potential friends worldwide;

As they had done to us. They openely opposed our stance on Iraq, which removed any teeth the United Nations had as an eforcement body in the world. Iraq repeatedly violated UN resolutions and they wanted to give it more time. What were they waiting for? All of Manahattan's population to be murdered by a chemical agent?

He launched a war against a sovereign nation without establishing why it was urgent and necessary, and without achieving any of his stated goals for attacking, except regime change;

First replace "sovereign nation" with "terrorist sponsoring nation"(and don't say they are not because the families of palestinian suicide bombers were recieving money from saddam). Second he did establish why it was urgent and necessary. Example...Iraq was unable to account for certain aspects of their wmd programs. We live in a different world today with new threats. I applaud Bush for not sitting back and waiting for some terrorist to walk into NYC with a liter of Iraq produced sarin and wipe out the entire city. (thats right only 1 liter...very easy to conceal...especially in a country the size of California)

There has never been anything like this in American political history. Despite a record of budget irresponsibility, international discord,warmongering and even scandal, the Bush veneer is hardly scuffed. It isn't anything about Bush; it's about us. We've changed, and not for the better.

Your right about one thing here. America has never experienced anything like this. We were never had a terrorist attack of this magnitude. They started a war...We are fighting back...and now you want to say we are the bad guys...Get real.

There can be only one explanation: Sept. 11. That terrible day in 2001 transformed us in many ways, but the most subtle and insidious change was how it sapped our national confidence. The terrorist attacks provoked in us not courage, but fear -- fear of being victimized again, as we were that day. We've reacted like the rape victim whose faith in human nature is crushed by anxiety and suspicion, rather than the one who fights back spiritually, refusing to be degraded by a degrading act.

First our nation is about as United and proud as it has ever been in my life time. You are comparing war to rape?? Since when to countries get attacked and not strike back. I am glad though that you realize we were the victim. Do you think if we did not enhance our internal security that we would not be hit again by terrorists? They hate us and want to see every last one of us dead if possible. To top it off their hate is all in the name of God. There is no reason with people like that. Undoubtedly they would have struck us again. We will not roll over and let them do it again, and you have a problem with that. (Still no alternative solution from you other than bending over and taking it in the ass)

Bush told us that we needed to attack Iraq for our security, and we accepted it. He told us that we needed to compromise certain civil rights to help catch terrorists, and we accepted it. He told us that our security required us to detain suspects without charges or access to lawyers, and we accepted it. It's as if the American people, shivering with fear, are huddling around Bush as if he were a shepherd. Do whatever you must, dear shepherd; just protect us. Consequently: We won't even question economic policies that have created a weak

dollar, a soft stock market and creeping unemployment.

Normalnoises told you Iraq was no threat and you accepted it. Your hippie wanna be friends told you your civil liberties are more important than other peoples lives and you accepted it. Some crazy ass professor told you everything including the economy is Bush's fault and you accepted it. Now since you wish you were part of the hippie age who was against Vietnam you now finally have your chance to protest something and you are taking it in full stride.

As far as the economy was concerned you honestly think that the stock market was overinflated?? Internet based companies were selling for $60 a share and upwards(and these were companies who were making no profit) Yahoo was selling in the $400's per share at one point. Turns out the Internet didn't pan out as quickly as investors had hoped, and this is Bush's fault??? $100 stocks are selling in the $1-2 range(and that is the good considering some do not even exist anymore). Not because of Bush.. but because there prices were inflated by overly optimistic investors.

It made us intellectually passive -- which frightens me much more than a hijacked airliner

More evidence of speaking the revised words of same nut bag professor who like you is not in touch with reality.

[sassa]

Originally posted by skince55

So many holes in your sermon...I dont even know where to start

Enron...WorldCom....9/11....technology bubble popping. None of those things had to do with our current economy??? Honestly...were any of these things Bush's fault??

Why don't you give the tax cuts a chance to fail before you blame them for the economy?? His most recent cuts have not had time to impact the economy yet.

Has our nation ever experienced a threat similar to the one we are experiencing today?? Right, thats what I thought. So until you come up with a better solution...please do not comment on this.

As they had done to us. They openely opposed our stance on Iraq, which removed any teeth the United Nations had as an eforcement body in the world. Iraq repeatedly violated UN resolutions and they wanted to give it more time. What were they waiting for? All of Manahattan's population to be murdered by a chemical agent?

First replace "sovereign nation" with "terrorist sponsoring nation"(and don't say they are not because the families of palestinian suicide bombers were recieving money from saddam). Second he did establish why it was urgent and necessary. Example...Iraq was unable to account for certain aspects of their wmd programs. We live in a different world today with new threats. I applaud Bush for not sitting back and waiting for some terrorist to walk into NYC with a liter of Iraq produced sarin and wipe out the entire city. (thats right only 1 liter...very easy to conceal...especially in a country the size of California)

Your right about one thing here. America has never experienced anything like this. We were never had a terrorist attack of this magnitude. They started a war...We are fighting back...and now you want to say we are the bad guys...Get real.

First our nation is about as United and proud as it has ever been in my life time. You are comparing war to rape?? Since when to countries get attacked and not strike back. I am glad though that you realize we were the victim. Do you think if we did not enhance our internal security that we would not be hit again by terrorists? They hate us and want to see every last one of us dead if possible. To top it off their hate is all in the name of God. There is no reason with people like that. Undoubtedly they would have struck us again. We will not roll over and let them do it again, and you have a problem with that. (Still no alternative solution from you other than bending over and taking it in the ass)

Normalnoises told you Iraq was no threat and you accepted it. Your hippie wanna be friends told you your civil liberties are more important than other peoples lives and you accepted it. Some crazy ass professor told you everything including the economy is Bush's fault and you accepted it. Now since you wish you were part of the hippie age who was against Vietnam you now finally have your chance to protest something and you are taking it in full stride.

As far as the economy was concerned you honestly think that the stock market was overinflated?? Internet based companies were selling for $60 a share and upwards(and these were companies who were making no profit) Yahoo was selling in the $400's per share at one point. Turns out the Internet didn't pan out as quickly as investors had hoped, and this is Bush's fault??? $100 stocks are selling in the $1-2 range(and that is the good considering some do not even exist anymore). Not because of Bush.. but because there prices were inflated by overly optimistic investors.

More evidence of speaking the revised words of same nut bag professor who like you is not in touch with reality.

:laugh: omg, do you even know who wrote this????? a top foreign policy advisor in washington, dc.....

and you think you have the smarts to dissect this and say it is full of holes....so i guess this man doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about....

so i wonder, how did he retain his job and how did he manage to be in this field for over 30 years....hmmmm.... :rolleyes:

[Drunk]

Originally posted by sassa

and you think you have the smarts to dissect this and say it is full of holes....so i guess this man doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about....

so i wonder, how did he retain his job and how did he manage to be in this field for over 30 years....hmmmm.... :rolleyes:

I guess we should accept it at face value then huh? Even people with decades of experience and education have agendas. Skince did a nice job of pointing out flaws in the man's argument.

[sassa]

no, i didn't say that!

[skince55]

Originally posted by sassa

:laugh: omg, do you even know who wrote this????? a top foreign policy advisor in washington, dc.....

and you think you have the smarts to dissect this and say it is full of holes....so i guess this man doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about....

so i wonder, how did he retain his job and how did he manage to be in this field for over 30 years....hmmmm.... :rolleyes:

Thank you Drunk.

sassa since when is a person's position with what you like to call our Nazi government's credentials enough for them to be respected by you?? The answer is as soon as they agree with you. I don't see you respecting the things Bush, Powell, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft say just because they are top officials in the government. So since I am unable to dissect what this unnamed official says how come you think you have the smarts to dissect what Bush,Powell, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft do? I guess they don't know what they are talking about. So I wonder how did these people manage to reach these positions........hmmmmmmm..... :rolleyes:

Perfect example of your hypocrisy at its fullest.

[mr mahs]

Originally posted by sassa

Where did the feisty Americans go?

It will be a question historians will debate perhaps for centuries to come.

How did a president remain solidly popular with the American people, even

though:

The economy stagnated during his watch;

He turned a projected federal surplus of $5.7 trillion over the next

into a projected $2 trillion deficit, fueled by huge tax cuts that

enriched the wealthy and failed to stimulate the economy;

He proposed and won more tax cuts, though most economists warned that

they wouldn't likely create many jobs;

His administration trimmed basic domestic civil rights, including the

right to privacy, counsel and habeas corpus;

He openly scorned relations with traditional allies and potential

friends worldwide;

He launched a war against a sovereign nation without establishing why

it was urgent and necessary, and without achieving any of his stated goals

for attacking, except regime change;

The company once headed by his vice president landed a no-bid contract

in Iraq far more lucrative than originally revealed?

There has never been anything like this in American political history.

Despite a record of budget irresponsibility, international discord,

warmongering and even scandal, the Bush veneer is hardly scuffed.

It isn't anything about Bush; it's about us. We've changed, and not for the

better.

It seems only yesterday that the typical American took a delicious pride in

holding the feet of political leaders -- even the ones we admired -- to the

fire. Whether it was Nixon or Carter or Reagan or Clinton, presidents have

had to endure the relentless heat of popular scrutiny. Until now.

Bush exists in a dimension far beyond having to fend off criticism. It's as

if critical evaluation itself has gone into hibernation. Virtually nobody

questions Bush -- not the opposition Democrats, not the bulk of the media,

and by all reckoning, not the public.

There can be only one explanation: Sept. 11. That terrible day in 2001

transformed us in many ways, but the most subtle and insidious change was

how it sapped our national confidence.

The terrorist attacks provoked in us not courage, but fear -- fear of being

victimized again, as we were that day. We've reacted like the rape victim

whose faith in human nature is crushed by anxiety and suspicion, rather

than the one who fights back spiritually, refusing to be degraded by a

degrading act.

Bush told us that we needed to attack Iraq for our security, and we

accepted it. He told us that we needed to compromise certain civil rights

to help catch terrorists, and we accepted it. He told us that our security

required us to detain suspects without charges or access to lawyers, and we

accepted it.

It's as if the American people, shivering with fear, are huddling around

Bush as if he were a shepherd. Do whatever you must, dear shepherd; just

protect us. Consequently:

We won't even question economic policies that have created a weak

dollar, a soft stock market and creeping unemployment.

We won't explore the logic of disarming the newly freed Iraqi people,

while backing a resumption of sales of assault-style weapons at home.

We won't evaluate the ludicrous notion that Haitian asylum seekers

must be imprisoned as a matter of national security, even as migrants from

communist Cuba are allowed to swim ashore and go free.

When I press Bush supporters on his record, they invariably respond with

general references to faith and trust: He has good reasons for what he has

done. Time will prove him right. He's a good man.

That's no America I recognize. Some amount of faith is fine and healthy.

But aren't we Americans supposed to be feisty, indomitable, demanding,

assertive, skeptical?

Sept. 11 rightly made us more cautious and more vigilant. But it also

diminished us. We're less tolerant of dissent; less thoughtful about world

issues; less concerned with principles of justice, fairness and equity; and

-- to the apparent benefit of Bush's poll numbers -- less demanding of our

political leaders.

It made us intellectually passive -- which frightens me much more than a

hijacked airliner

Okay where do I start?? let see this loon def does not know ANYTHING about buisness cycles and would rather put blame on a REPUBLICAN president. Why glorify a modern day crook who rode the coattails of a record expansion due to a tech bubble??? I will go and pick apart his bullshit essay and maybe after proceed to wiping my ass with it

1) The fell in March of 2000 uneder BUBBA'S watch but no left wing loon will ever admit that... it would tarnish the so called legacy of probably one of the worst corrupt shallow presidents ever...

2) I guess 2 skyscrapers falling in down town manhatten stalling a 10 trillion dollar a year economy for close to a week wouldn't have effected are economy if Bubbas was in office. I bet it would have taken Bubba 1 week to meet with the CIA instead of 3 weeks he wasted before meeting with Woosley after the Cole bombing.

-Also this guy should pick up a IRS manual and realise we are taxed on a progressive scale meaning the more you make the more you are taxed. In the left's eye a person making over 28k is considered rich and pays 90% of the taxes why wouldn't they get the break?? this is lunacy left wing social class warfare that makes them look dumber by the argument....

3- They only trimmed the non-existent rights of illegal aliens and enemy combatants no one else... I haven't been effected in any other way then being safer and I appreciate it.... Thank God for John Ashcroft!!!!!!!

4- He scorned ties with WASHED UP SUPERPOWERS that would rather appeas then act, because of a little 8 billion IOU someone owed them....

5- He was the first person to grow a pair and go after a vicous dictator who tortured & harbored terrorists and had a active WMD program. And did we forget that this certain dictator wiped his ass with 17 reslotutionsover 12 years. The lefts argument is weak and has a chipped peg leg to stand on, period....

6- Cheneys employment ended in 98 and if this nutbag checked history Halliburton has won contracts like this for years under diffrent party presidents .. How many co's can do what Halliburton does??? there's your answer...

Bush approval ratings are so high because this country was faced with a promblem and he and his administartion grabbed it by the horns and is doing everything possible to defeat it....

Bush in 2004!

[mr mahs]

Originally posted by skince55

So many holes in your sermon...I dont even know where to start

Enron...WorldCom....9/11....technology bubble popping. None of those things had to do with our current economy??? Honestly...were any of these things Bush's fault??

Why don't you give the tax cuts a chance to fail before you blame them for the economy?? His most recent cuts have not had time to impact the economy yet.

Has our nation ever experienced a threat similar to the one we are experiencing today?? Right, thats what I thought. So until you come up with a better solution...please do not comment on this.

As they had done to us. They openely opposed our stance on Iraq, which removed any teeth the United Nations had as an eforcement body in the world. Iraq repeatedly violated UN resolutions and they wanted to give it more time. What were they waiting for? All of Manahattan's population to be murdered by a chemical agent?

First replace "sovereign nation" with "terrorist sponsoring nation"(and don't say they are not because the families of palestinian suicide bombers were recieving money from saddam). Second he did establish why it was urgent and necessary. Example...Iraq was unable to account for certain aspects of their wmd programs. We live in a different world today with new threats. I applaud Bush for not sitting back and waiting for some terrorist to walk into NYC with a liter of Iraq produced sarin and wipe out the entire city. (thats right only 1 liter...very easy to conceal...especially in a country the size of California)

Your right about one thing here. America has never experienced anything like this. We were never had a terrorist attack of this magnitude. They started a war...We are fighting back...and now you want to say we are the bad guys...Get real.

First our nation is about as United and proud as it has ever been in my life time. You are comparing war to rape?? Since when to countries get attacked and not strike back. I am glad though that you realize we were the victim. Do you think if we did not enhance our internal security that we would not be hit again by terrorists? They hate us and want to see every last one of us dead if possible. To top it off their hate is all in the name of God. There is no reason with people like that. Undoubtedly they would have struck us again. We will not roll over and let them do it again, and you have a problem with that. (Still no alternative solution from you other than bending over and taking it in the ass)

Normalnoises told you Iraq was no threat and you accepted it. Your hippie wanna be friends told you your civil liberties are more important than other peoples lives and you accepted it. Some crazy ass professor told you everything including the economy is Bush's fault and you accepted it. Now since you wish you were part of the hippie age who was against Vietnam you now finally have your chance to protest something and you are taking it in full stride.

As far as the economy was concerned you honestly think that the stock market was overinflated?? Internet based companies were selling for $60 a share and upwards(and these were companies who were making no profit) Yahoo was selling in the $400's per share at one point. Turns out the Internet didn't pan out as quickly as investors had hoped, and this is Bush's fault??? $100 stocks are selling in the $1-2 range(and that is the good considering some do not even exist anymore). Not because of Bush.. but because there prices were inflated by overly optimistic investors.

More evidence of speaking the revised words of same nut bag professor who like you is not in touch with reality.

Good points..

Leave it to leftie loons to know

nothing about economic cycles......

[sassa]

Originally posted by skince55

Thank you Drunk.

sassa since when is a person's position with what you like to call our Nazi government's credentials enough for them to be respected by you?? The answer is as soon as they agree with you. I don't see you respecting the things Bush, Powell, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft say just because they are top officials in the government. So since I am unable to dissect what this unnamed official says how come you think you have the smarts to dissect what Bush,Powell, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft do? I guess they don't know what they are talking about. So I wonder how did these people manage to reach these positions........hmmmmmmm..... :rolleyes:

Perfect example of your hypocrisy at its fullest.

what...???? BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA!

[skince55]

Originally posted by sassa

what...???? BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA!

Its okay you dont have to respond. I know you are a hypocrite

[sassa]

Originally posted by skince55

Its okay you dont have to respond. I know you are a hypocrite

funny, you have proven yourself to be one a few times already....like the pot calling the kettle black