igloo Posted November 20 Report Share Posted November 20 This should invite some interesting chatter....Islam: a religion of peace?Larry Elder (archive)November 20, 2003 | Print | SendA "religion of peace," says President Bush about Islam. But investigative journalist Robert Spencer, in his new book "Onward Muslim Soldiers: How Jihad Still Threatens America and the West," argues that what we call "Islamic extremism" stems from a straightforward reading of the Koran and interpretative Islamic texts.On Nov. 10, 2003, I interviewed Spencer.Larry Elder: Is Islam a religion of peace that's been hijacked by Islamic extremists, as George W. Bush says? Robert Spencer: There are millions of peaceful Muslims . . . but the fact is that radical Muslims are using core texts of Islam that are deeply rooted in Islamic theology, tradition, history and law to justify their actions, and those radical Muslims are able to recruit and motivate terrorists around the world by appealing to these core Islamic texts. . . . As far as the radical, violent elements of the religion go, they are very deeply rooted, and we are naive in the extreme if we don't recognize that and try to get moderate Muslims to acknowledge it so that real reform can take place. Elder: Have some translations of the Koran taken out the more extreme statements? Spencer: The only Koran that really matters is what's in Arabic, because as far as traditional Islamic theology goes, Allah . . . was speaking to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel, and the language is intrinsic, can't be separated from the message. The fact is that what's in Arabic is very clear . . . but in two opposite directions. What you have are very many verses of peace and tolerance, and also very many verses sanctioning and mandating violence against non-believers. . . .You find many moderate Muslim spokesmen and American-Muslim advocates in this country, who quote you the peaceful and tolerant verses, and no reference to the violent verses. . . . When you read Islamic theologians themselves . . . you find they actually confront this problem directly. . . . Some of the most respected thinkers in Islamic history say that when you come upon these kinds of disagreements -- where you see peace in one place and violence in the other -- you have to go with what was revealed last, that cancels out what was revealed before. Unfortunately, for the moderates, the violent verses were revealed later and they cancel out the peaceful ones -- but you won't hear this from the American Muslim advocacy groups. . . .What we need to see is a forthright acknowledgement of it and reform from moderate Muslims themselves, the same way that the Pope has apologized for the Crusades and Christianity at large . . . has repudiated the theology that gave rise to them. So we need to see . . . moderates on a large scale repudiating the theology that has led to violent jihad, which the radicals are using to justify their actions. Elder: You write, "Muslims must present non-Muslims with the three choices of Sura 9:29 of the (Koran): conversion, submission with second-class status under Islamic rule, or death."Spencer: Correct. This is a deeply rooted tradition in Islam. Islam is unique among religions in having a developed doctrine theology in law that mandates violence against non-believers. Not all Muslims take it seriously, but the radicals do, and they are working to recruit and motivate terrorists. So . . . whenever anybody says we want to institute Sharia Islamic law in a country, they mean these laws. They do not provide for the equality of rights and dignity of non-Muslims in a Muslim society . . . (but) mandate just the opposite -- that non-Muslims are not to be given equality of rights, but denied various jobs because they're not allowed to hold authority over Muslims. They must pay a special tax called the jizya, which is referred to in the verse you mentioned. . . . Their humiliation and inferior status is enforced with numerous other regulations, still part of Islamic law, and liable to be enforced by radical Muslims and who want to gain power and institute Islamic law. . . . Anybody who is concerned about human rights would be resisting and be happy to join in the War on Terror.Larry: So, when the president says that Islam is a religion of peace, is he saying that because it's a politically correct way of phrasing it so that people don't get the impression that we are at war against a religion?Spencer: Your guess is as good as mine in terms of what the president is thinking. . . . He's aware that radical Muslims are trying to make this into that kind of a war . . . and he's trying . . . to keep that from happening. . . . The problem with what he's saying is that it's misleading. If it's followed through, it might hinder law enforcement efforts against radical Muslims who are operating in the United States . . . and it could have very serious consequences. Elder: What should he say?Spencer: I think he should say nothing. As Pat Robertson said, he wasn't appointed the Chief Theologian of the United States . . . he doesn't have to tell Americans what Islam is all about. All he has to do is fight against the enemies that are threatening . . . our freedom and our continued life in the United States. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamiroguy1 Posted November 20 Report Share Posted November 20 You know, some could argue the same for christianity or any religion to that matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kramadas Posted November 20 Report Share Posted November 20 Originally posted by jamiroguy1 You know, some could argue the same for christianity or any religion to that matter. trueI mean - would a columnist in the 1600's (or whenever the Inquisitions were) have argued wether Christianity was a religion of peace since those Inquisitions were in fact state sponsered?Its just that - at this time in history - Islam is the focus. It will pass, and soon some other religion will take the title of "Not peaceful?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kramadas Posted November 20 Report Share Posted November 20 Originally posted by jamiroguy1 You know, some could argue the same for christianity or any religion to that matter. trueI mean - would a columnist in the 1600's (or whenever the Inquisitions were) have argued wether Christianity was a religion of peace since those Inquisitions were in fact state sponsered?Its just that - at this time in history - Islam is the focus. It will pass, and soon some other religion will take the title of "Not peaceful?"Also, only the people in the ME know Arabic...the millions of other Muslims world-wide do not know that language. Wonder what the translated texts say? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igloo Posted November 20 Author Report Share Posted November 20 For those who know their Bible, is there as much content with respects to intolerance, infidels, believers or non-believers, etc as there is in the Koran?And does not progressive and civilized throught need to occur?....It is all well and good to bring up the 1600's or the Crusades as some kind of comparison, but that is a little ridiculous....Yes poverty, education, and oppression all are critical elements that need to be cosnidered, but there is also a ridiculous amount of wealth behind the teaching and promotion of extreme interpretation, and a common misperception is that only the downtrodden are attracted to militant Islam. This could not be further from the truth. For example, Al Qaeda ranks are filled with educated and wealthy murderers.What about the leading clerics in the Muslim world. For example, the top cleric in Saudi Arabia, preaching to the pilgrams this past year, gave a hate speech against the U.S. and Israel. What excuse can you make for this leading voice in Islam, and the hundreds and hundreds just liek him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr mahs Posted November 20 Report Share Posted November 20 Christianity doesn't preach violence against non-beleivers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marksimons Posted November 20 Report Share Posted November 20 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marksimons Posted November 20 Report Share Posted November 20 I would say that there are other reasons besides islam for the terorrism.at a lower level, the people who carry out the suicide bombings then it could be an important factor.obviously islam has nothing to do with it, but it's a good recruiting device...at the higher levels you have people playing their own games, but to be fair, Bin Laden is just continuing as normal, he was alright when he was a terroist working 'for' america as it were against the russians, but now the infidels on islamic soil are the americans, so he's turned against them.at least he's consistent.Islam is used by bin laden et al in exactly the same way as patriotism and christianity are used by bush. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igloo Posted November 20 Author Report Share Posted November 20 Originally posted by marksimons fuck that.islam is as peaceful as christianity.anyway. christianity and islam are about power and politics these days.igloo.I can't be fucked.the crusades are rather relevent, I'd reccomend reading about them...have you actually read the koran?the bible says you can stone gays and adulterers to death. ooh. like sharia law.oh and look at the almost institutional peadophilia in the Catholic church...look at the intolerance of many of the right wing churches in america.Terroism has absolutely fuck all to do with islam.bush has fuck all to do with christianity.all organised christianity is against what christ believed and has caused a lot more damage to the world than islam has...this is trying to shift the blame for terroism onto religion.it isn't religion's fault, religious extremism is a sign of social and economic desparation, not any inherent problems in the religion... Son, I appreciate the fact that you enjoy ranting, but if you read my post, I already acknowledged some of the things you have said...I am looking beyond the obvious...please do so yourself.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marksimons Posted November 20 Report Share Posted November 20 natch, why I changed my reply pronto I have a copy of the koran in my lap as it happens...personally I think bush with his tax cuts, social program cut backs would do to reflect on some of the words of this bookAlms"Have you thought of him that denies the Last Judgement? It is he who turns away the orphan and does not urge others to feed the poor."Woe to those who pray but are heedless in their prayer; who make a show of piety and give no alms to the destitute."I think it'this insistance on not being a hypocrite is most commendable... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igloo Posted November 20 Author Report Share Posted November 20 Originally posted by marksimons I would say that there are other reasons besides islam for the terorrism.at a lower level, the people who carry out the suicide bombings then it could be an important factor.obviously islam has nothing to do with it, but it's a good recruiting device...at the higher levels you have people playing their own games, but to be fair, Bin Laden is just continuing as normal, he was alright when he was a terroist working 'for' america as it were against the russians, but now the infidels on islamic soil are the americans, so he's turned against them.at least he's consistent.Islam is used by bin laden et al in exactly the same way as patriotism and christianity are used by bush. This is a disgraceful post, and you are a piece of shit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmatas2277 Posted November 20 Report Share Posted November 20 Originally posted by igloo This is a disgraceful post, and you are a piece of shit :laugh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kramadas Posted November 20 Report Share Posted November 20 I definitely agree there has to be some modernization of Islam, especially in the ME...but its going to take time. Thats why I said that the era of Islamic fundamentalism is now, but will pass at some point and maybe (hopefully not) be replaced by some other regilion/school of thought. The problem starts with those in power in the ME. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dnice35 Posted November 20 Report Share Posted November 20 :laugh: Having laughed my ass off... I would like to state Islam is the worlds cancer... fuck Islam and the fucking koran. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marksimons Posted November 20 Report Share Posted November 20 dude...islam is not the world's cancer...it's religion...or people...one of the two...but seriously, both bush and bin laden are religious fundamentalists...in my eyes two sides of the same coin - they NEED EACH OTHER!both can issue orders which result in the deaths of thousands of civilians without appearing troubled by this.islam needs to modernise in places, but so does christianity, and so does the world as a whole...anywaybong.check this out.non believers does not mean non islamic religious types... it just means those who don't live as god intented.check this quote"believers, Jews, Christians, and Sabaens - whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does what is right - shall be rewarded by their Lord; they have nothing to fear or regret"as ever people pick and chose quotes from texts to suit their purpose...you can find things in the bible and koran to support any point of view I'm sure...and that's the beauty of religion, always open to reinterpretation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dnice35 Posted November 20 Report Share Posted November 20 MARKSIMMONS, GOOD POST...BUT I STILL THINK ISLAM IS A CANCER AND SHOULD BE IRRADICATED....JUST THINK OF BUSH AS CHEMOTHERAPY.... HEHEHEH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igloo Posted November 20 Author Report Share Posted November 20 Originally posted by marksimons dude...islam is not the world's cancer...it's religion...or people...one of the two...but seriously, both bush and bin laden are religious fundamentalists...in my eyes two sides of the same coin - they NEED EACH OTHER!both can issue orders which result in the deaths of thousands of civilians without appearing troubled by this.islam needs to modernise in places, but so does christianity, and so does the world as a whole...anywaybong.check this out.non believers does not mean non islamic religious types... it just means those who don't live as god intented.check this quote"believers, Jews, Christians, and Sabaens - whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does what is right - shall be rewarded by their Lord; they have nothing to fear or regret"as ever people pick and chose quotes from texts to suit their purpose...you can find things in the bible and koran to support any point of view I'm sure...and that's the beauty of religion, always open to reinterpretation. Further confirmation that you are a piece of shit...And shouldn't you be with the rest of the lost and clueless staging your "big" protest.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marksimons Posted November 20 Report Share Posted November 20 that post was better than my other angry ones... would like to know what you find wrong with it...I would be in london but I'm off to amsterdam in a bit for a meeting of young people from around the world who are involved in politics in their countries via the various liberal parties - www.iflry.org, should be another interesting weekend and allow me to find out what our european, asian, africa, south american and canadian friends are up to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamiroguy1 Posted November 20 Report Share Posted November 20 Originally posted by dnice35 MARKSIMMONS, GOOD POST...BUT I STILL THINK ISLAM IS A CANCER AND SHOULD BE IRRADICATED....JUST THINK OF BUSH AS CHEMOTHERAPY.... HEHEHEH Please don't be ignorant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr mahs Posted November 20 Report Share Posted November 20 Originally posted by igloo Further confirmation that you are a piece of shit...And shouldn't you be with the rest of the lost and clueless staging your "big" protest.... Oh you mean the LOONS who beleive the Taliban and Sdam should return to power? or do you mean the other nutbags that beleive communism and socialism are better then democracy??They should drop a MOAB on those idiots, so they don't create offspring and invest the rest of the world with their idiocy.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igloo Posted November 20 Author Report Share Posted November 20 Originally posted by marksimons dude...islam is not the world's cancer...it's religion...or people...one of the two...but seriously, both bush and bin laden are religious fundamentalists...in my eyes two sides of the same coin - they NEED EACH OTHER!both can issue orders which result in the deaths of thousands of civilians without appearing troubled by this.islam needs to modernise in places, but so does christianity, and so does the world as a whole...anywaybong.check this out.non believers does not mean non islamic religious types... it just means those who don't live as god intented.check this quote"believers, Jews, Christians, and Sabaens - whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does what is right - shall be rewarded by their Lord; they have nothing to fear or regret"as ever people pick and chose quotes from texts to suit their purpose...you can find things in the bible and koran to support any point of view I'm sure...and that's the beauty of religion, always open to reinterpretation. Further confirmation that you are a piece of shit...And shouldn't you be with the rest of the lost and clueless staging your "big" protest.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marksimons Posted November 20 Report Share Posted November 20 you don't get it.we don't want saddam or the taliban back in power...that's the beauty of not actually listening to what we have to say...only an idiot would say having saddam back would be good for iraq, but really, is the ordinary iraqi of afghani actually that much better off now?communism is not better than democracy, well, actually this is a lie, true communism, not the totalitarian regimes that have manifested themselves, would be a democracy, but that's not the point...communism is basically devolved power to local communities...socialism? well, damn, we've had socialism in the UK for the past 50 years or so and it's worked quite well alongside democracy, we have a national health service, it's a bit ropey, but hey, it's better than having millions of people without health insurance...the people protesting know that the war is not about iraqi democracy, it's about the oil, the money, securing the hegemony of us power. go read the www.newamericancentury.org - this is what it's all about, securing america's status as number one unchecked power, able to ensure their security by engaging in pre-emptive wars everywhere. bush has said this afternoon he wants to be able to do this.the protestors don't want saddam back, we want real leaders, with real vision for the world, who are brave and courageous enough to look beyond the bombs and guns and offer a path that could actually improve the lot for many people in the world.we know how american power is exercised globally, in GATTS, the WTO, World bank IMF, how coporations and businesses support slave labour in the third world, how patents cost small countries, how privatisation and 'free' trade open up vulnerable nations that are not allowed to protect their native industry - and it's protectionism that allowed america, europe and japan to get their economies into such a strong state...the protests have far more grievences and issues they wish to raise than you may know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igloo Posted November 20 Author Report Share Posted November 20 Originally posted by marksimons you don't get it.we don't want saddam or the taliban back in power...that's the beauty of not actually listening to what we have to say...the protests have far more grievences and issues they wish to raise than you may know... When I called the coalition to ask whether the idea was to stop all wars, a spokeswoman assured me that this was not the case.She referred me to the first article of the coalition's charter that states: "The aim of the coalition is simple: to stop the war currently declared by the United States and its allies against 'terrorism.'" "We really want to stop Bush and Blair from going around killing babies," she said. "Our objective is to force the U.S. out of Iraq and Afghanistan."But what if a U.S. withdrawal means the return of the Taliban and Saddam Hussein?"Anything would be better than American Imperialist rule," she snapped back.In addition, the signs being displayed declaring President Bush Terrorist #1....and your comment putting Bin laden and Bush in the same sentence...confirms you are a clueless, repulsive dickhead who belong with your fellow losers in your quest to be anti-establishment not because you believe in certain causes, but simply because it fills a void in your pathetic, empty lives by being around other rejects from societyFuck you..your comments and intent are dispicable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamiroguy1 Posted November 20 Report Share Posted November 20 Originally posted by marksimons go read the www.newamericancentury.org - this is what it's all about, securing america's status as number one unchecked power, able to ensure their security by engaging in pre-emptive wars everywhere. bush has said this afternoon he wants to be able to do this.This makes me sick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djxeno Posted November 20 Report Share Posted November 20 Originally posted by dnice35 :laugh: Having laughed my ass off... I would like to state Islam is the worlds cancer... fuck Islam and the fucking koran. What religion are you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.